Humans created God., page 2

Originally posted by heyo
reply to post by KarlG

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Hey well that's good for you. Asa christian, i'm not one who says "I blame God" or whatever. I blame myself for anything wrong, and give myself credit for the right things that go on in my life.
However, the circumstances of such good and bad things, when I step back and take a look, make it hard for me to think there isn't some force out there that give one's life a little gas once in awhile.

example: (this stuff happens a lot)

over the course of the last year, I've had 7 dollars an hour taken off my wages, while prices for food and rent have risen or stayed the same. I'm an apprentice carpenter, and I work hard, but I've watched this lowered hourly wage (it's hit everyone the same) combined with 20%ish less hours available turn into me into being financially strapped. I would take advances on the 15th of the month check to pay for food and rent, then live off the middle of the month check on which i have no bills. All well and good, and i was catching up nicely, until the boss started charging 30% on all advances. I take a couple hundred bucks and gotta pay back like 280. no way, unsustainable.
I was forced to break my lease and move in with my dad in another small town (I don't take social handouts. period.never been on ui or anything like it).
The second day i looked for a job. after looking all day in town and in the surrounding towns I came home dejected. Went out for a smoke. Heard a skihl saw. Walked around a bend and there was a foundation they were starting. boom, job. There are almost no houses going up in this small city, and there's one fulltime framing crew of three people and i just so happened to luck out and be on it.

I'm not out to prove religion with that example, but to show how circumstances can shange on a dime with no control over them. I seem to have a lot more good luck than bad, if you want to put it that way. And the good luck seems to correspond when i'm, if you will, "feel spiritual".

Anyways, just some food for thought. I believe and respect everyone's decisions in their own lives, just as i'm sure you do.

heyo:

I respect you, man.

You are tenacious, you don't give up, you are smart enough to know when to quit, you are strong and you are courageous.

Indeed, we all feel like there are times things "happen" when we feel "spiritual", when we feel "connected". But for me, I don't believe in a higher power "helping" people. I mean, even if God HAS a lot of spare time, he wouldn't go to any one person to help him. He would rather help victims of floods, earthquakes, volcanoes. So, two explanations for this:

1) Maybe - there is a God, and he manifests in a collective belief.

For the sake of an easy hypothesis, let's say you go back home to your small town, and your family is OVERJOYED. Thrilled. Your Congregation, who hasn't seen you in eons, is happy to again.

You pray, you go to Church, and you worship TOGETHER.

Have you ever had instances in "holy places" where you have felt magical and strong?

That is, IMO, not the power of a God. That is the power of all of the tens of people in one Church praying together, heads bent, keeping a sole idea/being in mind and thus, giving forth to a sort of energy, a sort of "buzz" that you can feel.

You, and your family, and your Church, have, in a way, given such belief to a God, or an entity along those lines, that He was borne in your own consciousnesses. As your family prayed for you, or as you prayed together, you invoked such an entity to be with you.

This one God exists to help you, and guide you, but it also explains why he would do that and not, for, say, your boss, or a random homeless man on the street, or for the people of Iran or Tibet who admittedly need it more than you - because they don't share your Christian beliefs.

Which fits into, also, pleasingly, a "conventionally-Christian" POV.

"God will only help you if you keep him in your minds."

Which makes sense, kinda, because if this God is borne out of the collective trust and worship placed in Him through eons, it would make sense that only a member of this "collective" - read: Christians - could pull a manifestation of His powers from wherever He resides - the alternate plane and the like - if you believe hard and strong enough.

Which also means, that people in Iran and Tibet might not get him, because - well, they don't believe in the same God as you do. In which case I AM saying, The Stronger God wins.

The religion with the most number of followers and worshippers will get a stronger manifestation of what they believe in, well, because there's more power to go into the invoking of such an entity.

How about victims of Katrina? Victims of the California wildfires?

I will not go so far as to say "God gave them the disaster to teach them a lesson / for a reason" because that is what I have heard some people say and I am OUTRAGED over those sort of comments.

I, and ONLY I, would think that they just didn't have the strength to call upon Him, or maybe they just didn't. Yes, maybe they didn't go to Church the day before and maybe they were alone, and faced with a burning fire or raging waters, they just didn't think of God, and even if they did, they wouldn't have enough power to bring Him into our plane .

No "reason" as to why the disasters occurred - they just did. But whether or not help can be rendered is a different story. What I am, essentially, saying, is that YOU control God, and not vice versa. YOU pull God out to help you, but this God does NOT have the CHOICE of whom to help: "Let me help heyo, and not help the singer whose mother and sister were shot."

And that is because - you created him. The collective Christians in the world, throughout the ages, in ALL the societies in SE Asia and Australia too... gave such an entity strength, be it just ONE God, or MANY Gods for different households, small towns and geographical locations.

[TO BE CONTINUED]

reply to post by Shane

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DUDE

I am NOT saying Jesus Christ doesn't exist.

He might have been historically factual, and did everything you said.

YOU have been doing all the studies, not me. I'm taking your word for it.

But what i'm saying is that all the "heavenly powers" and all the "divine intervention" you think He or Christ is giving you from above - that's all YOUR doing. And it probably occurs on a separate astral plane altogether, where "heaven" might really exist because of everyone's belief in it.

reply to post by KarlG

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Well I am more confused now than before.

In respects to Christ, I was just responding to some Mathematican theory Chris offered. I wasn't asking you about it. Just pointing out the Math was wrong so Chris can speak to the Math Man.

But you had closed a response to Watchtheashes and brought The Antichrist up with the premise he was set to destroy everything, just due to the Hive Mindset you believe the fundementals of the three Faiths are built upon.

I think this is what you are suggesting, and asked for clarification.

Have a Good Night

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Shane
reply to post by KarlG

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Well I am more confused now than before.

In respects to Christ, I was just responding to some Mathematican theory Chris offered. I wasn't asking you about it. Just pointing out the Math was wrong so Chris can speak to the Math Man.

But you had closed a response to Watchtheashes and brought The Antichrist up with the premise he was set to destroy everything, just due to the Hive Mindset you believe the fundementals of the three Faiths are built upon.

I think this is what you are suggesting, and asked for clarification.

Have a Good Night

Ciao

Shane

I'm more confused about your replies than you are to mine.

(LOTSA CONFUSION FLOATING AROUND)

What's all this Mathematician thing? I REALLY do not understand what you've been saying... I just brought up the Antichrist as a side example that if you put too much belief in him/it/her you give him/it/her strength, because humans are the ones with the powers to visualize and create realities.

I do believe you have things backwards.

God = pure consciousness. Consciousness is eternal and so forth. Consciousness creates logic. It is the part of god within that gives you these things, and makes you an "observer". Simply more than machine.

Creation = logic. A program. Action and reaction. In the beginning, there was only the "word". And from this word comes creation. Well any programmer knows that this is also the same thing in every program. As a programmer, I write down words that are set in such a way to create logic. And from that word and logic comes the "program" itself. All programs are built on words. These "words" end up just moving switches in patterns etc, binary 1's and 0's or duality. Consciousness is that which creates logic. We can write programs that work off logic to do many smart things, but the programs lack consciousness and can't create their own logic. But they will follow the logic given as reliable as a rocket.

If you are unable to seperate these 2, then you will never understand. Science = best to understand creation and logic. It's action and reaction, repeatable in a lab. There is no logic that can begin to describe consciousness. Can't program something to actually "feel" something. You can program it to react, but to actually "feel" and to actually "observe" is beyond the scope of logic.

So, after creation, the "spirit of god fills creation" and this makes it come to life. Because without an observer, it's useless and isn't "alive". Write a program and without an observer it's just running patterns over and over.

John 3

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

So it's good you recognize the consciousness and importance of it. But you have things backwards. You need to understand the father(god) and son(you) relationship. The big picture vs the individual picture. Which you somewhat attempt in your post.

These 2 posts give a more in depth understanding of these things in a quantum physics kind of way.

Link 1

Link 2

Ok, so the father(god) is that which knows all, and is in the end the 1 and only observer. There is really only 1 of us. He knows all, and so there is no time, no change and so forth because nothing is new.

You are in the son perspective. You have a limited perception and knowledge. This is needed in order to have the experience of life. If you knew all, then you could not have the experience, because nothing new would happen. As in the 2 threads, it's the difference between looking at a movie film stretched out(no time) and watching the movie(has time).

So, the father is much greater than any of us. As the father sees and knows all, and is within all of us. So, to take a single perspective from that, and it's just not even comparable.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

So all is connected spiritually etc. We are all "in the father". A soul is an individual consciousness within a greater "sea" of consciousness.

We are all god, in a limited perspective in order to have this experience, where as the father is that in full perspective of all.

All that is of the father eventually returns to the father. When the soul dies, it means you lose your individuality of consciousness. When you sell your soul, it means you have sold your choice and become a puppet for your own comfort. And the entire "war on god" is a war on consciousness and trying to turn people into tools of action and reaction, which equals control. Just as we can control a rocket because it follows the laws of action and reaction.

When it says "you are hated because you are not of this world" this is what it means. You are hated because you are not action and reaction like the physical and universe is, and thus can't be controlled. If a rocket had choice, who knows where it would end up. But it doesn't so it becomes a tool under the control of those with "power". So, the "game" is to try and turn you into something that can be controlled in the same manner. Introduce certain actions and get the reactions you want. Make people fear for their lives, and they will react and give away freedoms for security. Of course, if people knew what they really were(consciousness/soul) they wouldn't fear.

People blame religion and such and call it "ignorant" and that people just made it up. But that isn't the truth. The truth is that anyone who didn't go along with the specific translations and understandings given to them was killed. This is prophecy. "Christians" don't realize it because they only look at other religions. Thus any real understanding was lost over time. Anyone who told people the truth was killed, and the idolized version was pushed.

In the end, it doesn't matter if you believe or do not believe what the church says. Either way you will be allowing them to define the topic for you, and that's all that is really wanted.

reply to post by KarlG

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I am inclined to agree with you. But I believe In Jesus, who taught us how to live.

Why is it that we are not living according to Jesus? To love each other, to forgive each other, and to not wage war?

reply to post by KarlG

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Hi Karl, you caught me with your title. I disagree with your theory on the "creation of God". The psychological add-ons are relatively recent and I don't consider that a group "wishing it so" will bring on an end times event. These things have been wished for thousands of years and have not yet come about. Remember the Y2K scare? Here's a website that touches on this topic:

A Brief History of the Apocalypse

That site describes many groups that have connected hands believed and devoted themselves without receiving their wish. Undoubtedly a disaster will destroy our spaceship and if humans are still alive when it does, some will consider that this was a predicted end and others will consider that s*** happens.

I think we created God but the extended belief systems were added much later and a cultural/political thing entirely unrelated to the God creation. I consider it happened along these lines. An early human sees a boulder roll down a hillside after an earthquake. Having thrown or rolled a stone them self, he/she extrapolates that a much larger entity did the same with the boulder. He/she further extrapolates that the shaking of the ground was also caused by the unseen large being. When the human runs up the hillside to catch a glimpse of this larger being it is gone. And so a larger than life, unseen being/human of immense power is imagined to have caused an otherwise unexplainable occurrence.

And so in something resembling what I've described, man makes God in his image. A "Superman" if you will. And so this Superman or God fills in during science's infancy. And we've all seen that as science develops God is replaced. I submit Galileo Galilei. Galileo was thwarted by the cultural/political structure of his time not by group think/wish.

"If wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a Merry Christmas!"

reply to post by ParavengeR

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I sincerely do not believe that.

I believe we make our own afterlife.

What we think about NOW is what we get afterward.

This is what I mean about psychologically giving your thoughts weight: If you think you're going to go to hell, if you feel cold before you die, your consciousness WILL go to a cold place and you WILL go to "hell".

If you are surrounded by loved ones, and you feel you've done all you can in life, and you're ready to go to your next adventure: BAM! You're in hell? Absolutely makes no sense except to...

Christians, who believe that Believing in God and His Love is all that will get you to Heaven.

Here's my next point.

What's there to fear?

Why should I fear hell? just because it's cold? Just because I'll get punished for... not being Christian? So hell is filled with Christians who didn't think of God and of Buddhists, and Muslims, and Hindis and Pagans?

I say, that's REALLY shallow and if you look at it from where I'm seeing it now... it's very "shepherd-like" (no pun intended).

I'm going to live my life now the way I want it to be lived. I'm going to "sin", I'm going to accept my gay friends, I'm going to pursue my dreams on my own merit and luck and skill, and I'm going to be loved by people I KNOW and SEE can love me. And I'm going to love myself, too. I'm going to be strong.

And so what if I'm going to hell for not believing in God?

The life on Earth would be great, and whatever comes next is just par for the course.

See, that's the problem, right there, and it's also one my theory finds fault with, if not for the fact that all the people who ever read my threads (plural) are steadfast Christians (good for you) who don't consider alternatives.

Hell CANNOT possibly contain Pagans, Hindis, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists because that is paradoxically wrong. Jesus, and God, too, I believe, believes in, as Spellbound has said, loving, forgiving and not to wage war.

The fact that those who are NOT Christians go to hell is already not "loving" and "forgiving". If your God was absolute, so many non-believers would descend to hell straight without even going to the Pearly Gates because of your stand that only Christians who love God and keep Him in mind will go to His Heaven.

So since this is paradoxically impossible, what i HAVE proposed here (and which has apparently been construed as some atheist disproving thing, WHICH IT IS NOT) is that everyone has their own set of "God(s)" and "afterlife notions" and "beliefs", which you can call upon for "miracles", and which you call upon for your procession to either Heaven or Hell.

Sometimes Hindis get miracles too. Ever see men who walk on nails? Across fire? They attribute all to MIND over matter. And I really do think the power of the mind is endless. It is LIMITLESS. Mothers, who in trying to save their children, can stop oncoming cars with their bare hands. They break every bone in their arms, but it is their love for their children that switches on this strength.

Miracles.

The Hell or Heaven Christians see, the cold tunnel, the beautifully white heaven - you ALL see the same thing because you have been taught the same thing, and you visualize it, and your combined strength and desire to go there has Created a place of Love: Love which YOU have imbued it with. Likewise, you see Hell as a cold, dark place and thus, when Christians have NDEs or they get a glimpse of "hell", it is the place which ALL OF YOU have Created as cold and unforgiving.

How does one "get" Hell? A man who has committed crimes, murders, caused hurt and pain - before he dies, he would fear, fear HELL so greatly, and KNOW, that hell is looming, that it's all he can think about. Naturally, he pulls up "Hell" as his afterlife (of course, assuming he's Christian and Hell-believing). If you think about Hell right before you die, if you fear Hell for not being a Christian, you go straight there.

If you don't, you go to wherever you are thinking of right when you die, as per your beliefs.

Buddhists see Wheels of fire: symbols of reincarnation. They see Yan Luo Wang, the God of Death, which collects the "evil" souls. Hindis see suns and multiple Gods watching over the world. Which are all true in their culture. Which, if you ask, other NDEs around the world, in Aboriginal and Chinese cultures, vary in description.

You have the notion that your Christian God is ABSOLUTE, i.e. there is only ONE.

What I am saying is that your GOD DOES EXIST, but he EXISTS in CONJUNCTION with other Gods and Goddesses in the world - Bridget in Irish culture, Goddess of Mercy in Chinese culture, Shiva in Indian culture - and they are called upon to give you what YOU want because YOU have Created each and every one of them.

The Chinese have the 7th-month festival, where the gates of hell actually OPEN and all the spirits from "down under" get to resurface. To protect themselves from ghosts, the Chinese calls upon the Monkey God, who deals with petty spirits.

To protect yourself from ghosts and demons, you invoke the power of the cross and God's Love. Priests use that power to exorcise demons that actually DO EXIST, as volatile, malevolent energy.

Both cultures use invocations, and according to the many accounts through time, both seem to work. They seem to work because you have either 1) "opened" up some gift of yours to chase away the spirits, just like super-moms unlock super strength in moments of crises, or 2) You call upon the power of the REAL GOD(S) out of the astral plane or wherever they reside after they've been Created to help you.

I am not going to attack logic because this is not a petty post. I'm going to say that the ORIGINAL POINT OF MY TOPIC WAS LOST.

I AM saying your God exists, but YOU have control over what He does, and not the other way around.

To assume God controls us like a program, giving us "input" and "instructions" and breathes life into us is, to say the least, degrading to YOURSELF.

It's like I said before: People who attribute everything they do to God. "I'm doing charity for God's Love." "I got fired because I didn't believe enough in God". Not only is it degrading but it's not right, unfortunately. You're doing charity because It's GOOD, because you FEEL good. You got fired because of the recession. Because you weren't good enough.

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