Row over saintly push for Nazi-era pope

Source link here.

POPE Benedict must be left alone to decide on whether to promote a controversial Nazi-era pontiff toward sainthood, the Vatican says, rejecting apparent pressure from within the Church to move ahead.

Pope Pius XII has been accused by some Jews of turning a blind eye to the Holocaust during World War II, a charge his supporters and the Vatican deny.

The Vatican issued an unusually strong statement hours after Italian media quoted Reverend Peter Gumpel, the chief Vatican judge investigating Pius' sainthood cause, as suggesting Benedict had not yet acted out of fear it would harm relations with Jews.

The Vatican said the Pope's decision on whether to sign beatification decrees "is the exclusive competence of the Pope, who should be left completely free in his evaluations and decisions".

"If the Pope thinks that study and reflection on Pius XII's cause should be further extended, his position must be respected without interference or unjustified and inopportune declarations," the Vatican's press office said.

Some say Pius did not do enough to save Jews. The Vatican and his Jewish defenders say he worked behind the scenes to help because direct intervention would have worsened the situation.

Alright, please explain to me who is in charge of the catholic church - is it god, or the pope?

Reading this article, there's no mention of god deciding who becomes a saint, it's all decided by a man - the pope. The exclusive competence of the current pope...

Shouldn't the church have also slotted in a reference to god or christ, somewhere in the article, to convince people that this decision is based on more than human politics?

Idiocy.

The catholic church, a boys' club that just got out of control and wasn't stopped in time before it became 'popular'.

reply to post by tezzajw

The catholic church, a boys' club that just got out of control and wasn't stopped in time before it became 'popular'.

They just had the best financing for the religious wars that eventually established their brand over the others.
Popular if you define it as having killed everyone who you were not popular with.



[edit on 19-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
They just had the best financing for the religious wars that eventually established their brand over the others.

I guess that if you have the financial backing, then your brand of advertising will certainly make sure that you're guaranteed to have the lion's share of the marketplace.

They were a different breed of entrepreneurs back then. Ruthlessly effective at what they did.

Yes, they leave the decision up to the Head Pedophile In Charge. The old Papal Infallability nonsense! The real question is what miracles did Pope Pius XII perform??? I've never heard of any, and if I remember correctly (former Catholic and 9 year survivor of Our Lady of Perpetual Guilt with Sister Mary Hitler, Sister Mary Stalin and Sister Mary Mussolini and their Iron Rulers of Death), you have to have performed at least three 'miracles' to be considered for sainthood. Not to worry, as I'm sure it won't be long before it's known as The Late Great Roman Catholic Church! Now that's going to be one hell of an auction at Southerby's!!!

Originally posted by tezzajw

1)Alright, please explain to me who is in charge of the catholic church - is it god, or the pope?

2)Reading this article, there's no mention of god deciding who becomes a saint, it's all decided by a man - the pope. The exclusive competence of the current pope...

3) Shouldn't the church have also slotted in a reference to god or christ, somewhere in the article, to convince people that this decision is based on more than human politics?

4) Idiocy.

I'll take your points in order.

1) God.

2) If that's what you took from the article it was either poorly written or you need to read it again.

3) That would be difficult seeing as how the Church didn't write the article.

4) C'mon, that's a little harsh. You're not an idiot, just a bit ignorant of the Catholic Church and maybe predisposed to believe anything that may depict the Church in a negative light.

Eric

reply to post by EricD

and maybe predisposed to believe anything that may depict the Church in a negative light.

The Catholic Curch was the world's largest slaveholder.
Here is the first thing that came up from googleing the above sentence.
From www.brazzil.com
The properties which the Jesuits operated were managed by one or two padres who supervised the labour of Negro slaves, as in the case of sugar plantations... The Society of Jesus was probably the greatest institutional slaveholder in Brazil; certainly it possessed the largest number of slaves confined to a single plantation in all of colonial America".


[edit on 20-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by tezzajw


It probably doesn't mention God because your source is a secular paper. God guides the Pope to decide on candidates for sainthood.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts

The Pope isn't infallible in all things, just when speaking of matters of faith, and especially when sitting in the chair of St. Peter.

Also, just because some priests have been pedophiles doesn't mean that all of them are. If you really followed that mindset, you'd say all teachers have sexual relations with their students, as well. And, yes, schools have covered those things up, too, and, before you make the joke, no, not just Catholic schools.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Like I said to the previous person, you're going to hold the acts of a few over the heads of the many?

What you all fail to realize is that priests are people, too, and can be just as sinful as anyone can. Yes, they're held to higher standards, and therefore should be punished more severely, but they're still human, and therefore, still sinners. There are only two people to ever walk this earth who were not sinners: Jesus and Mary, and that's because Jesus is God, and Mary had to be perfect in order to contain God. God cannot come from something that is blemished.

Also, before you start criticizing others, take a lesson from the Bible:
"Stop judging, that you may not be judged.
For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.
Why do you notice the splinter in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye?
How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove that splinter from your eye,' while the wooden beam is in your eye?
You hypocrite, remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother's eye."
Matthew 7:1-5

[edit on 20-6-2009 by MoonChild02]

Originally posted by MoonChild02
It probably doesn't mention God because your source is a secular paper. God guides the Pope to decide on candidates for sainthood.

Proof? Source?

Don't tell me that I have to take it on faith do I?

I guess it's my own fault for posting in the Religion Forum. I can suspend all rational thought in here.

Also, before you start criticizing others, take a lesson from the Bible:

How can I take a lesson from something that I don't believe in?

Nice handle though... MoonChild. I don't know if you're an Iron Maiden fan, but they sung that song last time they toured.

Originally posted by MoonChild02
reply to post by JaxonRoberts

 

The Pope isn't infallible in all things, just when speaking of matters of faith, and especially when sitting in the chair of St. Peter.

Ahhh, a magic chair of infallability! Well that clears things up!!! Now what about the miracles????

As for pedophilia, the church has done it's best to cover it up and deny it at every turn, instead of aiding in investigations. It's a heinous crime and I believe it's still a major sin, unless things have changed that much since I left the church, so I stand by my 'Head Pedophile In Charge' line. If you protect pedophiles, you are a pedophile by proxy, as far as I'm concerned. Yes, some teachers have been caught diddling their students, but you never see the school administrations trying to cover it up, deny it, or anything else to hamper investigations by the proper authorities as you claim. And those teachers are always fired and sent off to jail where they belong. Baby raping priests, on the otherhand, are just moved to another parish. Very weak arguement, and I wish Catholics would stand up to this continuing problem.

It's a mute point. The whole Catholic concept of Sainthood is not Biblical Christianity anyway. It's entirely a man made tradition of the Catholic political body. It has nothing to do with God, Jesus or his word.

I believe there are Christian Catholics but there are a large number of Catholics that have never even heard the gospel. I have met them personally and talked to them and have seen them baptized into the real Christian church after leaving Catholicism.

All who have accepted Jesus as Lord are Saints. It is most disturbing to me that historically the popes have murdered the saints.

"For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. It is what they deserve!”" (Re 16:6)

The Albigenses, or Carthari, in southern France, northern Spain and
northern Italy preached against the immoralities of the priesthood,
worship of saints and images, completely rejected the clergy and their
claims, opposed the claims of the Church of Rome, made great use of the
Scriptures, and lived self-denying lives with a great zeal for moral purity.
By 1167 they embraced a majority of the population of southern France
and were very numerous in northern Italy. In 1208 Pope Innocent III
ordered a crusade in which the bloody war of extermination utterly wiped
out town after town—the inhabitants murdered without discrimination—
until all of the Albigenses were utterly wiped out.

The Waldenses, a similar but not identical group in the same region
emphasizing Bible reading and rejecting clerical usurpation and profligacy
were similarly wiped out (but for the few survivors in the Alpine
Valleys southwest of Turin who are now the leading Protestant body in
Italy). It is recorded that in the 30 years between 1540 and 1570 no fewer
than 900,000 Protestants were put to death by the Pope’s war for the
extermination of the Waldenses.
]
Chuck Missler; Revelation Study Notes , 2005.

I strongly believe the Vatican is Mystery Babylon of Revelation - they are responsible for murdering Saints - they don't choose them.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


I'm guessing you've never been to a Catholic service from your post. Every church going Catholic (and are they really Catholic if they don't go??) hears a passage from the Gospels as well as a passage from the other books every time they attend mass. In the thousands of hours I spent at mass as a kid (right up until I moved out) I heard every part of the Bible ad infinitum. And what exactly is a 'real' christian church??? All christian denominations can trace their roots back to the Catholic church, including whichever one you attend. There was only one christian denomination until Martin Luther tacked up his infamous 95 theses in 1517. Source.

I can't believe that I'm defending the Catholic Church, or any christian denomination for that matter, but skewing the facts gets on me nerves!

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


Do you know what the Gospel is I wonder?

Catholicity is a works based system like Mormonism. It is not the Christianity taught in the Bible.

I based that on the testimonies of life long Catholics that had never heard the Gospel. The Catholic church has engaged in a great deal of revisionist history. Peter was never a Pope in Rome etc. There have always been Biblical Christians who opposed the imposed Papal system. Of course the Church went on a bloody genocidal campaign against them.

• The war on the German Protestants (1566-1609)
• War on Protestants of Netherlands (1566-1609)
• Huguenot Wars in France (1572 -1598)
• Philip’s attempt against England (1588)
• Thirty Years War (1618-1648)

All these wars were started by Roman Catholic Kings urged on by the
Pope and Jesuits for the purpose of crushing Protestantism. The
thousands killed at the hands of the Caesars of Pagan Rome are
dwarfed by the millions killed at the hands of the Vatican.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Yes, I know what the Gospel is. And I have read the Bible cover to cover several times, even after leaving the church. And several 'versions', i.e. King James, etc. I find it hysterical that the christian denominations are just as fractured as the Sunnis and the Shiites in Islam. The Protestant and Catholic 'War' in Northern Ireland is a good example in recent history. And the key root word in Protestant is protest. Kind of significant as it was the Protestants (or as you like to call them, true Christians)who were the terrorists in that conflict. Not exactly 'Christ like' behavior, now is it. In fact, I find it hard to find 'Christ like' christians. I usually find them to be bigoted, opinionated religious zealots who do everything they can to bring down and keep down those who do not believe as they do, no matter what the denomination! Quite frankly, there isn't a single denomination who practices christianity as Jesus laid it out. NOT ONE!!!

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by Bigwhammy

 

Yes, I know what the Gospel is.

What do you say it is then?

reply to post by Bigwhammy


The words and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Not the four books of the new testament written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. But one must ask about the legitamacy of these recounts... Council of Nicea anyone??

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


That's not what the Gospel is.

So you were a Catholic all that time and you can't even tell me what the Christian Gospel is? And you are obviously here with an anti- Christian agenda. I think my point is well demonstrated.

I am glad that people are waking up to this abomination of a church, yet you still get the same apologists all the time trying to defend the biggest most corrupt organisation on the planet defending the indefensible.

They will make him a saint they already made moves to beatify the Jesuit Priest come Nazi Stepinac and he had Orthodox Christians killed and converted.

Hear are a couple of links they will show the true account of what the Catholic Church did during WW2

www.spirituallysmart.com...

www.spirituallysmart.com...

No doubt someone will come on and say this site is Anti this or that but remeber the pictures dont lie! The Vaticans hands are stained with the blood of millions

[edit on 20-6-2009 by orangeman dave]

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
In fact, I find it hard to find 'Christ like' christians. I usually find them to be bigoted, opinionated religious zealots who do everything they can to bring down and keep down those who do not believe as they do, no matter what the denomination!

Amen to that!

EVERY 'christian' who I have ever met has knowingly lied or cheated to gain favour for themselves at some point in time.

They're christians by choice - in other words, they choose when they want to follow the bible and when they turn a blind-eye to it.

Pathetic.

reply to post by MoonChild02

Like I said to the previous person, you're going to hold the acts of a few over the heads of the many?
What you all fail to realize is that priests are people, too, and can be just as sinful as anyone can. . .Also, before you start criticizing others, take a lesson from the Bible:
"Stop judging, that you may not be judged.

Are you serious?
This was not the work of Monks. They were there as supervisors, but they were not on their own buying a few slaves to help them out. This is an institutionalized system that was authorized from the very highest powers of the Church.
The Church has been also the biggest judgers of others, with their excommunications and trials and imprisonments and executions, and now I am supposed to look the other way? There is no remorse or asking of forgiveness or promises to change their ways coming from the Church. They will go right back to being a persecuting power as soon as the restraint on them is loosed.

reply to post by orangeman dave


The Protestant Reich Church was formed by Adolf Hitler in 1933, by merging 28 regional churches into one church. The founding of the church was the result of work by the German Christians, who had gained a large majority at the 1933 church elections. It was based on Nazi ideas of creating a "positive Christianity", namely purifying Christianity of any Jewish elements including even the Old Testament, an idea which had existed in a small minority of Christian groups since the time of Marcion of Sinope, but the Protestant Reich Church did so for racial more than theological reasons. Ludwig Müller was elected "Reich Bishop".
en.wikipedia.org...

The German Christian (Deutsche Christen) group was formed in 1932 and led by Ludwig Müller. The group were supportive of the Nazi ideas about race. They issued public statements that those Christians in Germany who had Jewish ancestors "remain Christians in a New Testament sense, but are not German Christians." Also they supported the call from the Nazi party platform for a "positive Christianity" that does not stress human sinfulness. Some went so far as to call for removal of the "Jewish" Old Testament from the Bible. The group wanted to form a Reich Church which would bring together all Protestants in Germany. Their symbol was a traditional Christian cross with a swastika in the middle and the group's German initials "D" and "C". The Nazis found the group useful during their initial consolidation of power, it was claimed and remembered as a fact that the Jews had killed Christ, thus appealing to and actively encouraging anti-Semitic sentiment among Christians in Germany

summation via wikipedia

It was especially these "German Christians" who pushed for a national church under one bishop and one Fuehrer. Once Hitler consolidated his power in the course of 1933, their influence grew tremendously. They had members in every provincial church-governing body and were openly supported by members of the Nazi party, many of whom now joined the church. It was the patriotic thing to do. The church was not only a religious body, but also a bulwark of morals and of German traditions. Storm-troopers and Hitler Youth came to church in full uniform. What an impressive sight to see more than a hundred young men march to church on Sunday in uniform and sit in the front pews. Mass marriages were rigged; army bands in SS uniform played. The spectacles drew many to the churches.

Mueller's election and the introduction of the Aryan paragraph roused several Protestant leaders out of their complacency, but more was to come. In November 1933 a meeting of 20,000 "German Christians" took place in the Sports Palace, Berlin. The meeting opened with Luther's "A Mighty Fortress." In the speeches that followed and in a resolution that was passed, the "German Christians" shed all their inhibitions and showed their radical colours for all to see. Doctrines and confessions were attacked, and speeches as well as resolutions were outspoken in their anti-Semitism: the Jewish elements of Christianity must be discarded; the Old Testament would have to go; the "Rabbi Paul" was to be rejected; the Bible was to be purged of all Jewish influences. No Jews or blacks were to be allowed in the church. German Christians were not the meek, humble followers of some Jewish messiah, some suffering servant, but the proud followers of Christ the conqueror. Their champions were not "the crucified Christ" but "King Christ and the Fuehrer."

spindleworks.com...

No doubt someone will come on and say these sites are Anti this or that but remeber the pictures dont lie! The protestant church's hands are stained with the blood of millions!

Eric