Are the soldiers who protect America bad?

Originally posted by Exuberant1
Our military men and women took an oath to the Constitution. Many Constitutional rights have been nullified in the past decade.

Our men and women in uniform stood by and did nothing.

Our men and women in civilian attire did nothing as well. The job of protecting the constitution falls on the elected officials. You know, the ones we the people put there? A soldiers job is to support and defend it. Just how much power do you think an average soldier has anyway?

As a liberal, this thread is making me mad. . .and not for the reasons you would suspect.

The whining, spoiled children of the middle class faction is coming out and embarrassing the rest of us. You know, the people that fit the stereotype that Rush and Hannity spout about all of us. The OP is correct, these people are the ones who would curl up and submit. I just want to put out there that this minority does not represent all liberals, much like Timothy McVay doesn't represent all conservatives.

We live in a Darwinian world. People prey on the weak people. Countries prey on weak countries. That is the world we live in. We may want to change that, but it is where we live today and for the forseable future. No amount of whining changes that. We can all dream about a day when militaries are not necessities. We can all work toward that day.

BUT . ..
Until the day comes when we no longer require a military, treat our soldiers with some basic frickin' human respect and decency!!

Actually, I can't continue this post. . .I'm too pissed off to make sense.

Basic message. Take out your frustration on the greed and corruption, not on the people who are just trying to get by in this world like the rest of us.

reply to post by network dude

Soldiers who volunteer their duty know that they could be sent into a war without defensive reasoning behind it. So I can blame them for their actions when things go wrong. The defense of claiming "I was just following orders." is no defense.

I agree that soldiers aren't mindless drones sent into battle for the rich. They're actually willfully accepting their roles for the rich and as such have no excuse for themselves.

The only way imperial wars won't be waged by the U.S. military is if the soldiers themselves put down their arms. As far as I've seen, they don't do that and likely never will.

I would not spit on soldiers whom I think are wrong for what they've done voluntarily. I don't spit on ex-convicts either. They need to live with their actions, but I don't think PTSD is enough. If I had the option, I would not be paying their salaries with my tax dollars.

That is the wrong question.

Try this!

Are the soldiers who defend America's Imperial Conquest bad?

My guess would be: "Why yes! many of them certainly are! not all of them, though. I would imagine a lot of good people also turn bad in the process of 'just following orders.' " Maybe that's why there are so many suicides and suicide attempts!

To those who say they are defending my freedom(s): "Please stop, you're not doing a very good job. I seem to be losing more civil liberties by the day!

It's not always about protecting America. Sometimes it's about protecting other people. I've been to Afghanistan twice and will be going on a third trip very soon. I've worked with the Afghan National Army, the Afghan National Police, the Afghan Border Patrol, Afghan Commandos, and other government forces all of which are trying to legitimize the Afghan government and get rid of the terrorist forces in their country, including the Taliban, who treats their own people like complete garbage. Most of the suicide IEDs, whether carried bodily or in VBIEDs, kill more Afghan civilians than anyone else. People are dragged out of their homes and killed in front of their families because the Taliban didn't like something they did or said. It really is ridiculous over there. It's funny how so many people know NOTHING about what they're talking about, yet go on and on about how we're in places like Afghanistan for the wrong reasons. They've never gone there and never will. They are getting their information from the very media that they claim to be against. The reason we aren't "winning" the "war" is the media. The Taliban's public relations campaign is killing us because morons here publish it in American papers. One example was a huge mission we successfully completed in 2006. We rolled into a Taliban controlled valley that hadn't seen Americans for quite some time. Before we got there ALL women and children headed out of the village and towards the mountains, which is what they do right before a huge firefight. We ended up killing about 300 confirmed enemy fighters complete with grenades, RPGs, heavy machine guns, sniper rifles, and assorted small arms. Within hours the Taliban released a statement saying that US troops had rolled into that specific town and slaughtered 125 innocent women and children. It was complete and total bull$@!#, but guess what. It popped up in the American press the NEXT DAY. As far as the conspiracy theories about going over there to build pipelines and such are concerned, I've been to a lot of areas in Afghanistan and I've never seen or heard of anything to support any of those claims. All I've EVER seen are plans put into place to benefit the people living there and people in my unit being put on trial for killing someone in self defense. I'm not saying that there aren't ulterior motives for our involvement over there, but I AM saying that in my experience I've seen nothing to suggest them. I haven't been to Iraq, so I can't really comment on that situation. I can say, however, that people on my team went to Iraq right before I arrived and told me some very interesting things. For example: Everyone talks about WMDs and how they didn't exist in Iraq. I'm assuming the media is harping on that fact because they're talking about nukes in particular, but WMDs come in various forms including, but not limited to BIOLOGICAL weapons capable of killing THOUSANDS of people. These are considered WMDs and MY TEAM found some in Iraq. They did exist and they were found. Why wasn't that on the news? An how about all of the schools and wells we've built? You won't see those. In closing I think I'll add one more comment that's a little off topic, but needs to be said. I'm so sick of hearing about mistreatment of prisoners and blah, blah, blah. Prisoners should NOT be mistreated and the people who did the dirty work should be punished, but what really pisses me off is the fact that no one seems to understand who these people are. You have no idea how hard it is to get sent to a place like Gitmo. You HAVE to be a major bad guy to make it that far. We captured tons of people red handed in possession of, for example, VBIEDs in the making and they would get released within a month if they weren't considered bad enough. There are so many stages they have to go through it's ridiculous. People who end up in places like the ones you see on the news are the worst of the worst and are proven to be so.

[edit on 20-6-2009 by brackforce]

Some of these posters seem to think that we as soldiers can storm congress and make them vote a certain way. These senators and congressman are there because ALL of us voted them there. Me personally, I think there should be term limits on them, as they have lost touch with the people who put them there. But please don't blame soldiers for congress's actions. Put the blame where it belongs. On them.

Coming from a Military family and having served in the Army for 12 years my opinion is that the Military does not support and defend the constitution as it was sworn to do. I don't think this is intentional on most members parts but it is none the less true. The Military has always served the TPTB including during my service. I was in Iraq during the first gulf war and I witnessed and participated in the killing of many people. I didn't give it much thought during my service but I did start having some mental health problems such as Depression and Anxiety after. As I have become more politically informed I realize that I was used by the ruling class of our country but I also realize there was no way to know this when I was younger.

The same is true for most other service members today. Unless there is a powerful emotional experience to motivate learning, most will follow their leaders and fellow soldiers and assume that they are doing the right thing. I think this is human nature and I know that it takes a very special and well informed person to see throusgh the BS.

They have an entire field dedicated to Psyops in the military because it is effective in getting the opposition to make mistakes or surrender outright, It is known as a force multiplier. They use the MSM here in the same way, to spread their propaganda to us, that is why so many believe the military is protecting our freedoms and why so few can see through the BS, it is very effective.

IMO, forget debating this and be at peace with yourself. This world is "of and for the EGO", you are wasting your time trying to bring peace to it. I don't know if there is anything more than this nightmare, but if something better exist, I believe we will find it with our higher minds not our human senses and it won't be part of this world.

"Forgive everyone for the sins you think they commited, including yourself." I think that may be the way out of here. I learned this in a book called " A Course in Miracles." . I don't know if its true but I have made a pact with myself to finish the course. It is designed to take about a year to complete and I intend to do so before passing judgement on it. I've been studing it for a couple of months now and it has helped me a lot so far.

Anyways, thats my two cents. Good luck to you all and if I can help anyone, please don't hesitate to ask.

God Bless.

[edit on 20-6-2009 by Mourninwoody]

Ponerology.

There are a few ladder climbing psychopaths that make the whole military a tool of global domination for the psychopathocracy otherwise known as the NWO.

There are also a few bottom feeders that give the military a bad name and image.

And the vast majority of troops are just normal people that, through social missguidement find themselves in an organisation which in no way is what it represents itself to be, because the vertical hierarchical structure weeds out the good people and empowers the unempathetic psychos.

No, the troops aren't, for the vast majority, bad. But the organisation is rotten at the core, the same being said for any other human group with vertical organisation.

If we survive this militaristic mess, and if sociology meets with psychology the macrosocial consequences of evil, of psychopathy, will filter into the group mind and we can stop this happening again.

The core idea of ponerology is a few bad seeds will always destabalize the whole. This is the case for the US military, and, once you realise the dynamic, the truth is blinding in it's clarity.

My 5c.

Originally posted by nickspm
That is the wrong question.

Try this!

Are the soldiers who defend America's Imperial Conquest bad?

My guess would be: "Why yes! many of them certainly are! not all of them, though. I would imagine a lot of good people also turn bad in the process of 'just following orders.' " Maybe that's why there are so many suicides and suicide attempts!

To those who say they are defending my freedom(s): "Please stop, you're not doing a very good job. I seem to be losing more civil liberties by the day!

I will continue to attempt not to vomit, but it's getting real hard. You are most likely less than 17, live out west and have never been outside of your home town by more than 50 miles without your mommy and daddy. When you grow up, you will find that there is a whole world out there and what you thought was right just ain't the way it is. Until that day, I pray that the soldiers that are on point never meet you face to face. Enjoy the freedom you have.

The US military does not need to change.

US foreign policy drastically needs to change. We are a Republic, not an Empire.

Nothing that the US military have done in Iraq has protected America - it has only served to protect American corporate business interests, and caused a whole lot of people to hate us; which incidentally they dont because of our freedom, or our "democracy" (not that America is MEANT to be a democracy, its meant to be a Republic) - they hate us for the same reason we'd hate a foreign nation for invading our soil and telling us how to run our country. I bet you'd see quite a few American "insurgents" if this occurred.

We need to close all foreign military bases and sell them back to the countries where they are located, sever all foreign military alliances (preserve trading alliances only), and bring our troops home where they can be employed better guarding our borders and coasts.

We should not be squandering American lives fighting pre-emptive wars and invading sovereign nations - those are the marks of an oppressor power, not a liberator.

[edit on 20-6-2009 by veritasvoice2009]

From FIRST HAND reports, the average infantry soldier has the authority to execute defenseless women and children. And their bovine livestock for failure to communicate in the American English vernacular. Where I come from that is pretty significant power. Not to mention how hard it is on the farm animals.

Of the 2009 crop of handpicked volunteer American soldier, I can only speak of the closest member of my family currently back from theater within the last six months...

It seems he and fellow soldiers HAD to shoot an unarmed woman, her unarmed male child AND their leashed, unarmed cow. In a rural environment. On a paved rural road. In broad daylight. In unlimited visibility. HAD to shoot them because they were ordered to stop approaching spontaneously, arbitrarily set up roadblock when commanded to do so. Ordered not in the Iraqi vernacular, but in the American vernacular. That's quite a stiff penalty in Texas.

Before you retort, bear in mind there were operational armored vehicles of which the road block was construed. If it is not possible for multiple up armored HMMWV to M2 to block passage of light skinned cattle please forgive my ignorance. I stand redressed.

As far as the intestinal fortitude and internal constitution to exercise the power bestowed upon the modern American fighting man (and girls)... Multiple soldiers HAVING no alternative than to engage with small arms (5.56x45 M4 and 7.62x51 M240) said light skinned Iraqi mammals upset my nephew enough that he was eventually sent home.

They were having so much fun I can only wonder why they restricted themselves to individual weapons.

American soldiers are not bad in a general case. The politicians who think you can get away with calling an invasion of a country many thousands of miles away "defense" now them.... they are filth , and if soldiers were allowed to make thier own orders for the good of thier nations, both UK soldiers and American would be duty bound to go find Bush and Blair , and mess them up but good.
Just to clarify a point. Defense of self is generaly described thus: Taking actions to prevent imminent danger to self or others . So ... lets have scenario time shall we. You go to punch me, and I snap your arm. Thats self defense.
Im told you are going to punch me at some point , so in the dead of night , I come to your house , snap all your limbs , steal your resources, and screw your girlfriend. That is not self defense. That is being an egomaniacal psychotic. And thats how I see the UK US policy on "The War On Terror"

Originally posted by jerico65


One kid said, "Well, that's their right, and they are allowed to exercise it. Just as I can exercise mine by busting the teeth out of their head. Both have their consequences."

why do you guys want to hurt people for disagreeing with you?

wasn't it the Nazis and Commies who did that ?

Either u defend civilians or your a Nazi who attacks them for disagreeing
bottom line

Many people on this thread seem to be thinking too narrow. The military is not just infantry soldiers. It is a large network of people.

Take my job, for example. I am a sailor. I'm a technician that works on the Aegis weapons system. On of the facets of Aegis is ballistic missile defense.

As reported, president Obama has authorized the USS John McCain to intercept the North Korean vessel suspected of carrying arms to be sold to another country. Now, if Kim Jong Il gets pissy and decides to try to launch a missile towards Hawaii, and an Aegis cruiser or destroyer knocks it down in the first stage of flight, will you still say that the military is not protecting America?

i want you guys to be honest

you want to hurt Americans who protest?

i already had my life threatened by a soldier just a few weeks ago for simply protesting , so i guess i already know the answer to this question ...

please tell me hes a bad apple and you guys want him fired, because this behavior is not acceptable for US military

your suppost to defend our rights, not threaten to kill us for exercising them
Geez!

reply to post by muzzleflash


a soldier is supposed to defend your rights. Even if you chose to exercise your rights be being an idiot. I don't know what you were protesting, but that group that chose to protest at the funerals of fallen soldiers would fall deeply into that category. Thankfully there is a big bad biker gang who thought the same as I did, and they don't have the same rules the military does. they can get away with a bit more. But to answer your question, that solder should be punished for any action against you. That should never happen.

reply to post by network dude


Great thread, perfect example of "leaving no one behind"(with you trying to support a fellow soldier) IMO, I have never served but I respect those who do that are a true soldier protecting freedom. I agree with everything you said 110%. However I am not going to comment any further or reply to some posts that I want to because I know it will just end up in a circular, mudslinging argument and I do not have the time for that. Just wanted to say good job!

Are Soldier's bad ?

Generally, NO..

As someone pointed out it's one thing to defend one's beloved country, it's another to invade another.. especially signing up after they knows it's all a damn fvcking lie to begin with. That's the problem. Remember Nuremberg, where it was drafted in US - following orders is no excuse.

I've militarily served my country for 2 1/2 years and another 13 years as reserve. I've never shot anyone nor indirectly cause any expected civilian casualties. There's never a need to. But make no mistake, I'll sacrifice myself and won't be skirmish about taking enemies dog tags. That's a soldier's primary role - Defending one's country.

The problem with much of Americans is that They subliminally thinks they actually owns the world. There's very subtle difference made between actually defending one's country, and one's countries interest. The later suggests imperialism, taken as US military world dominance as given, proud heritage and prestige worth maintaining - as fear and respect as Romans. That unfortunately, deserve every arrows, bullets and IEDs coming at them.

Sorry, but that's what I feels.

Are the soliders that protect America bad? If you think killing peeps in another country that are of no direct threat to you or you freedom good, then they are good if not they are bad. Your choose. We are all humans we all free to make our own choices in life.
I dont buy the crap that the armed forces are there to protect out freedom. It is very evident that the majority of operations are to protect the intersts of a vest few.
kx

reply to post by network dude Re: OP I'd say it depends what you mean by "protect" too. If the USA was being invaded or even if US military were deployed overseas to prevent an aggressor from launching invasion, then I'd say it was regrettable but individuals involved would likely be acting honourably. Invading a foreign country to protect the financial interests of ones rulers tho is not only wrong but also stupid, because those soldiers & their families will see little if any of the benefits. Thus being part of such an enterprise, which deals injury & death to ordinary people, regardless of oaths taken, can only be seen as dishonourable. I know that most military aren't madeyed murderers: I almost enlisted myself; older mates did. In fact it was seeing what a year in did to them that changed my mind. They're not bad people, but just deeply indoctrinated & prepared to do things for reasons we would previously have mocked. Re: what would I do? I once ran into a burning house rapidly filling with gas to save an infant. Everyone said it was really brave. Truthfully, I wasn't thinking of the danger, just the screaming mother outside. Other times people have called me brave, different times I've judged myself a coward, so I dont know what I'd do: I've never had to fight an army; but sending people off to kill foreigners only makes it more likely that one day I'll have no choice. I do know that if I turned to a soldier for help, I'd probably not get it, because I'm part of the minority that always gets rounded up & jailed or killed 1st in any invasion: the politically active poor. So I spose I'd have to do what I've always done, whether my enemy was police, rightwing nutjobs or someone mugging me: look after myself. One thing I wouldn't do tho is follow someone just because they had been given military rank, especially those ruperts who get to major or above, cos those people have not got my, or anyone like me's, interests @heart.