Originally posted by TheStev
So when you say the bible is inerrant, you're not referring to the KJV, which you now say may have errors? Sorry to point out an apparent contradiction, I'm just trying to get a feel for where you're coming from.

The "doctrine" of inerrancy is not stating the present texts are inerrant, any more than if you and I were to make our own new copy (which we could, since there is no copyright on the KJV) and introduce some changes of our own. The doctrine of inerrancy is stating that the original autographs were inerrant. That being said, the present texts are virtually error-free. There are a few word differences, a phrase or two put in, and some punctuation changes. There is no significant theological difference. You can rest assured that the prophecy of Jesus that said His word would last has been fulfilled: Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Of course, He is referring to these essential doctrinal texts, not every word He spoke. Don't you just wish we had more?

I must also wonder: if some errors can be identified using other texts, what other errors might exist in the text that cannot be identified in the same way?

As I mention, though, I do agree with the basic message you've put across here. I think there is some truth in the bible, and what you've had listed here is basically that. I'm just wary of people who consider every word of the bible to have come straight from God's mouth. I think that's dangerous.

I'm having a hard time figuring out how dangerous that could be, since it is a doctrine of love for one another. Blessing those who persecute you or use you, giving away your shirt off your back, laboring for the sake of others, etc. Not a scary thing about it, agreed? Love thy neighbor as thyself. By this shall all men know ye are my disciples, that ye have love one for another. The fear you have is from the wrong Christianity. That is the point of this thread.

The guidelines of the Christian church to Gentiles like you and I are simpler than you might think. When the Apostles gathered together and had a meeting to determine what commandments Gentiles should follow, they decided the following found in Acts 21:25: 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. As you can see by this, it is simpler for us. Nothing mentioned about anything else, like baptism, sabbath, tithing, etc.

Originally posted by TheStev

The Fathers that translated the Bible were of ONE opinion...they didn't simply translate into their OWN thinking.

Okay, if we're talking solely translation, then riddle me this: if those translating were of ONE opinion, why are there about 15 different english translations?

There is money in creating your own translation. There is no copyright on the King James Version, but a new translation is copyrighted and controlled for money. It's the same old story.

Originally posted by Jim Scott


2. There would be no condemnation or judgment to hell. Jesus Christ said He died for the sins of all mankind. He paid for your sins, full price, and you have eternal life, guaranteed. No man can take that away from you. No church doctrine can take it away.


I have seen it. Don't sweat the small stuff here. Live for God, not because of commandment but because of what He has given you out of love. The reason a true Christian doesn't do unrighteous acts is because he would do nothing to offend the God who loves him so much, not because he is under compulsory commandment to serve a vengeful god.

Yes!! Jim Scott, you nailed it. I decided to quit feeling guilty for every action that I committed, a few years back. It set me free.

The thing that sealed it for me was when I discovered a terrible contradiction in Christianity (the church kind). The contradiction is hell, and God's love. If God loved us, he would never subject us to eternal punishment. Why would you create something just to eternally torture it? You wouldn't, and neither would God.

You point #2 is something that could really change a lot of people for the better, if they would open their minds.

Originally posted by downtown436

Originally posted by Jim Scott


2. There would be no condemnation or judgment to hell. Jesus Christ said He died for the sins of all mankind. He paid for your sins, full price, and you have eternal life, guaranteed. No man can take that away from you. No church doctrine can take it away.


I have seen it. Don't sweat the small stuff here. Live for God, not because of commandment but because of what He has given you out of love. The reason a true Christian doesn't do unrighteous acts is because he would do nothing to offend the God who loves him so much, not because he is under compulsory commandment to serve a vengeful god.

Yes!! Jim Scott, you nailed it. I decided to quit feeling guilty for every action that I committed, a few years back. It set me free.

The thing that sealed it for me was when I discovered a terrible contradiction in Christianity (the church kind). The contradiction is hell, and God's love. If God loved us, he would never subject us to eternal punishment. Why would you create something just to eternally torture it? You wouldn't, and neither would God.

You point #2 is something that could really change a lot of people for the better, if they would open their minds.

Indeed, you are free. And the joy and understanding that comes from that freedom creates within you and I an incredible appreciation for the sacrifice of Jesus for you and I individually. You know, the word "excruciating" for pain means "from the cross," and describes the gift of God for you and I. I cannot conceive of anyone, knowing this gift given to them, who would ever wish to offend Him. For example, if you had a friend who saved your life, how much would you give him high respect and appreciation the rest of your life?

A frustrating point to me is how people think they have anything to do with earning salvation because of their own righteous works. For example, it would be like trying to use a motorcycle to jump the Grand Canyon. Man can't do it, not even close. You could spend your entire life in penance from birth, loving and caring for others, never have a bad thought, never make a mistake or a single sin, and it would not even come close to getting you a seat in heaven. Not even close. You could be a sinless man, live 120 years without sin, and die and not go to heaven. It was never about you. You could never pay the price needed to spend eternity in heaven with God. Your righteousness is worthless when it comes to earning salvation. So, why be righteous? We make the choice to be righteous because we love God.

God puts us through the sufferings and temptations of life to develop our souls, a "refiner's fire" so He says. In that process, we show our faith in Him and our love for Him. It does not get us salvation, that was already a free gift. It is given by the "grace" of God, and grace means "unmerited favor." Unmerited means you did not do anything to deserve it. You are saved, as the song says, "Just as I am, without one plea." Obviously, most people will not accept this free unmerited gift of salvation here, they will accept it in the hereafter after they have received the clear understanding of it.

You are so right about God not creating us to punish us. He loves us, and will never leave us or forsake us. He is intimately involved in each of our lives, is listening to every breath we take and every word we speak. He wants the best for us, and even died for each of us individually. It does not fit with the Bible that God would condemn us to hell. We have to choose to go there on our own, just like the angels who followed Satan got to make a clear and obvious choice to turn away from the love of God with it staring them in the face. I do not understand how any Christian, knowing the parable of the good shepherd and the prodigal son, could ever believe that God would send them to hell.



[edit on 21-6-2009 by Jim Scott]

So tell me whats the differance between Protestants, Cathoclics, and Evangelical Lutherenes, hmmmm tel me that, Nah i stil believe what ive read about the Christianity being a tool to gather the masses under one control in the old roman empire, one of the last meperors wanted to gahter all under hes own lil power so he told to hes best schollars to writte the bible and make it good, and so after it he became the first pope, nah i dont believe in the story sorry,

Originally posted by Watchdog-Finland
So tell me whats the differance between Protestants, Cathoclics, and Evangelical Lutherenes, hmmmm tel me that, Nah i stil believe what ive read about the Christianity being a tool to gather the masses under one control in the old roman empire, one of the last meperors wanted to gahter all under hes own lil power so he told to hes best schollars to writte the bible and make it good, and so after it he became the first pope, nah i dont believe in the story sorry,

Catholics combined the Alexandrian codex (gnostics against Christ) with the good manuscripts, created a religion based on works. Protestants started with Martin Luther, who, a monk scholar, discovered that we are saved by our faith. Lutherans and other Protestants then moved backward from faith only to works and faith, resulting in the wrong word sent to the masses. The good news was buried in favor of the financial business of religion. Today Christianity ignores the saving grace, and requires righteousness by believers to inherit heaven. That is not Christianity, and it is no wonder you and I do not believe in it.

Christianity knows no emperor, no nation, no power other than that of God as its master. While we are compelled to obey the law of the land we live in, by law, we are more than free of the laws of God in that His Son has obeyed those laws on our behalf. Since our disobedience requires a just and fair God to punish us for our sins, Jesus steps into our place and is punished for us because He loves us. We are not under the law, but under the free gift of forgiveness, which reconciles us to God. We can boldly go into the presence of God, as sinless as Jesus Christ, because our sin has been removed 100% by the justice of God punishing Jesus for us. We escape that punishment, and are not condemned. This is the "good news", aka gospel, of Jesus Christ. Because He died for us, we are set free of the law and live under the grace of God. We are therefore, because of His love for us, willing servants to Him. He, who has saved us from death and hell, loved us so much that He died for us.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but should have eternal life.

Jesus' teachings are not seen today in 99% of the places you look. You know the truth, and you sense the truth, and you have rightly turned away from the lies. When the day comes that you return to Him, you will find Him like the father of the prodigal son. When the father saw His son returning, He ***ran*** to Him. Likewise, when Jesus was walking on the water and Peter attempted to walk on the water, also, but was sinking when he saw the troubled water----Peter cried out "Jesus, save me." You will see the typical reaction of God to that appeal: Jesus hand stretched out to Peter ***immediately***.

God loves us. He will always love us, just as we love our own children, even when they do something bad. Just as we would not hurt our children, God wants the best for us. He has the power to make your life miserable, though, to make you a better person.

A man stands tallest when he is on his knees before God.



[edit on 21-6-2009 by Jim Scott]

Originally posted by Jim Scott

Originally posted by Watchdog-Finland
So tell me whats the differance between Protestants, Cathoclics, and Evangelical Lutherenes, hmmmm tel me that, Nah i stil believe what ive read about the Christianity being a tool to gather the masses under one control in the old roman empire, one of the last meperors wanted to gahter all under hes own lil power so he told to hes best schollars to writte the bible and make it good, and so after it he became the first pope, nah i dont believe in the story sorry,

Catholics combined the Alexandrian codex (gnostics against Christ) with the good manuscripts, created a religion based on works. Protestants started with Martin Luther, who, a monk scholar, discovered that we are saved by our faith. Lutherans and other Protestants then moved backward from faith only to works and faith, resulting in the wrong word sent to the masses. The good news was buried in favor of the financial business of religion. Today Christianity ignores the saving grace, and requires righteousness by believers to inherit heaven. That is not Christianity, and it is no wonder you and I do not believe in it.

Christianity knows no emperor, no nation, no power other than that of God as its master. While we are compelled to obey the law of the land we live in, by law, we are more than free of the laws of God in that His Son has obeyed those laws on our behalf. Since our disobedience requires a just and fair God to punish us for our sins, Jesus steps into our place and is punished for us because He loves us. We are not under the law, but under the free gift of forgiveness, which reconciles us to God. We can boldly go into the presence of God, as sinless as Jesus Christ, because our sin has been removed 100% by the justice of God punishing Jesus for us. We escape that punishment, and are not condemned. This is the "good news", aka gospel, of Jesus Christ. Because He died for us, we are set free of the law and live under the grace of God. We are therefore, because of His love for us, willing servants to Him. He, who has saved us from death and hell, loved us so much that He died for us.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His Son, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but should have eternal life.

Jesus' teachings are not seen today in 99% of the places you look. You know the truth, and you sense the truth, and you have rightly turned away from the lies. When the day comes that you return to Him, you will find Him like the father of the prodigal son. When the father saw His son returning, He ***ran*** to Him. Likewise, when Jesus was walking on the water and Peter attempted to walk on the water, also, but was sinking when he saw the troubled water----Peter cried out "Jesus, save me." You will see the typical reaction of God to that appeal: Jesus hand stretched out to Peter ***immediately***.

God loves us. He will always love us, just as we love our own children, even when they do something bad. Just as we would not hurt our children, God wants the best for us. He has the power to make your life miserable, though, to make you a better person.

A man stands tallest when he is on his knees before God.



[edit on 21-6-2009 by Jim Scott]

Hi/

Christianity knows no emperor, no nation, no power other than that of God as its master.

If God was the one who instituted Kings,then would it not be that the Kings should do as God commands them to?
As it was in the Old Testament.
Jesus Christ speaks to His disciples....He that receiveth you,receiveth Me,
and he that receiveth Me receiveth HIM that sent ME'' (mATHEW 10:40)
Also...But if any man be a worshiper of God,and DOETH His will,him He heareth (John 9:31)
OLD Testament///...///...///
God Himself COMMANDED a King to entreat the righteous Abraham to pray for him,saying:For he is a Prophet, and shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live (Gen.20:7)
The Lord commanded the friends of the long suffering Job, who had offended him,to ask for his prayers:Go to my servant Job, and he shall pray for you, for HIM I will accept, lest I deal with you after your folly(Job42:8)....
Also look at Exodus 32:9-12)Jer.15:1,5)11Macc.15:12,14)
.........

While we are compelled to obey the law of the land we live in, by law, we are more than free of the laws of God in that His Son has obeyed those laws on our behalf.

True, we are to obey the Law we live in.
Wrong!
He DIED on our behalf...for no human being could take DEATH away...the first people Adam and Eve....You shall surely DIE if you do eat?
For DEATH was the punishment God gave...falling away from the commandment of God...To not eat of the fruit..

We too must OBEY the Teachings of the Apostles....handed down by Christ Himself.Why else would Jesus Christ do all these things?
It does not make sense!

***He might as well have come and told His Apostles...'' 'listen,just want you to know, Im God,I have done all that is necessary for your salvation..just go and do whatever,All is done by me..dont worry all is good''....
why did He choose to take Flesh and become one of Us?
Why did He choose to be scorned and beaten?
Why did He allow confession to be instituted by His Apostles?
He told his Apostles—"Verily I say unto you,
whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.” (St. Matt. 18).
“Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them: and whosoever sins ye retain, they are retained.” (St. John 20. 23).
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of God, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.” “Whoso eateth my flesh, and
drinketh my blood, hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”...John 6,53,54...
You mean to tell me that He said all that for the fun of it,doesn't make sense!
Also refer to John:6:27,69...Mathew:26:20_29...Mark 14,17-25.....Luke 22,14-38....and S.Paul 1 Corin 11,23-26...

Since our disobedience requires a just and fair God to punish us for our sins, Jesus steps into our place and is punished for us because He loves us. We are not under the law, but under the free gift of forgiveness, which reconciles us to God. We can boldly go into the presence of God, as sinless as Jesus Christ, because our sin has been removed 100% by the justice of God punishing Jesus for us.

Yes, Jesus Christ loves us, but He also chose His Apostles to do His teachings that He taught them.
He was Crucified..as It was Prophesied in the Old Testament...
He destroyed DEATH by His resurrection.
He came to tell us the Good Word....That all can be SAVED if we do as He says.
Not that we are all SAVED by just believing in Him..
Thats not scripture.
And as some other member pointed out....it's absurd!
Early Christians were tortured and treated with the worst punishments ever...Did they not BELIEVE IN Christ?
Why would they chose to die a horrible death if all it took was a BELIEF in Jesus Christ?
Our SINS are a FALLING AWAY from God...It is a slow process where each of us must go through to be as Jesus Christ.

ICXN
helen

And besides christian faith comes from Mithra and other religions what are more or less older than 2.500BC, so i dont catch up with this thread, and tell me this If there would eb a God , such what the hUmans has created , would this planet look like this now?, NO it would not, so that is simple there is no such God as the bible says there is and the bibnle is human made there is nothing holy about it , the book is full of , Murde Incest and war, whats so holy about all that? nothing at all, why dont you understand thsi you have been lied to for the last 2000 years

The thing I thought was strange was "choosing to go to heaven", it makes absolutely no sense at all. There is no "heaven", only pleasure, and no one willingly chooses to be in pain. So given an option of Heaven (pleasure) everyone would take it, it would literally be impossible to refuse it. That's part of the reason the creator does things the way he does, to give us free will so we aren't controlled since all we are are pleasure seekers.

Hi/

And another thing I will write, as it's still fresh on my mind!

Do you know that Scripture tells us to be careful of Wolves in sheeps clothing?

Do you understand what this means?

Brethren, I beseech you,
mark them that cause divisions and scandals
contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned,
and avoid them.
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ,
but their own belly, and by fair words and flattering words deceive the hearts of the guileless.
Romans (16:17-18)

Just because ONE calls themselves a Christian, does not mean they are Christians.
Jesus Christ calls all at the end of the World....Not all who call on Me,shall be saved!


“But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety,so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus,
whom we have not preached,
or if ye receive another spirit,
which ye have not received,
or another gospel,
which ye have not accepted,
ye might well bear with him…For such are false apostles,
deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel,
for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.”

-2 Corinthians 11:3-4;13-15
ICXN
helen

We turned our backs on God a long time ago!
Not the other way around! War is a lesson we have to learn.
We should grow up and realize thats not the right way to live.
Apparently we aren't doing a very good job either, eh?
Its all part of the plan regardless of how we feel about it.
We sure try to stick him in a pretty small box sometimes!IMO
Where were we when he created the universe anyway?
How the blank does any of us know what happens after death?
Who has died, went to hell and come back to tell us on here? Thought so.
Dont presume something you know nothing about.
Watcher, if theres no heaven or hell and no God,
are we just some slightly mutated monkey genes then?
I would rather err on the side of cautious hope myself, but whatever.
Believe in pure chance if ya like. Good luck with that.