Welcome to the worlds newest country.. The EU!

Just listening to the main Irish news channel where the it has been reported that EU leaders have bent to the demands of the Irish people who voted against the Lisbon treaty (EU constitution) in Summer 2008 after a similar document had been rejected by the French and Dutch electorates in previous years.

I cant find a link to this information yet so you'll have to take my word for it & I am not going to give my opinion on the EU in this post so you can take it as being as unbiased as I can possibly do it.

In the last few days, the debate has been heating up over the legalities involved in creating specific protocols in the Lisbon treaty in order to please the Irish electorate, the only electorate in the EU with the right to vote on these issues. The main issues for the Irish electorate were about the low Irish corporate taxation rates, various constitutional issues & laws and that the Irish forces can only be used for defensive purposes as stated in our constitution.

Various leaders, mainly Gordon Brown in the UK had been trying to use the fact that the Irish were getting a new deal in order to try and cancel their signed version and secure a new deal for the UK.. This has pretty much fallen through.. I know how many UK citizens wanted to change their associations with the EU before the treaty was completely ratified but unfortunately, it looks like Brown has been told to "Sit down and be quiet" by the other EU heavyweights.

SO...

This means that Lisbon will more than likely be passed in Ireland..
We are a stubborn breed but battered and weary with serious economic problems at the moment and the fact that the EU has for the first time really listened to ANYONE as a result of the democratic process will also help push the Lisbon treaty through... This means that only the Czech Republic will be left to ratify as they were waiting for the Irish to pass.

The date for the next referendum has yet to be set but will more than likely be in Autumn at some stage..

NOW..

Complete ratification of the treaty by all states creates something that looks strikingly similar the US.

Ratification...

*Creates an EU federal government of sorts by combining all the collective powers of the EU, EC, Parliament etc.
*Retains the sovereignty of the member states but gives the EU the legal right to remove power from the governments of the sovereign states.. and overwrite their constitutions without consulting them.
*Gives a lot more power to the elected parliament.
*Creates an EU president.
*Creates an EU foreign minister and office.
*Strengthens the EU economic clout which is currently 30%+ of the worlds GDP but heading in multiple directions.
*Begins work on enlarging the common EU defense forces and military integration.

Interesting times as the possibility of a country with 27 states, dozens of languages and cultures, 550 million people, an established global currency, massive military spending and an approximate third of the worlds money is extremely likely to be born in the next 5 years.

Whether or not it will work is what we will have to wait and see.

reply to post by Dermo


I saw on BBC during the European election that many of the Irish opposition to the Lisbon Treaty has flipped sides supporting it! I think that it is really underhanded as well that none of the countries, except Ireland, actually voted on the treaty. So much for democracy.

This means that only the Czech Republic will be left to ratify as they were waiting for the Irish to pass.

It could just be the wording, but from what I've gathered, the Czech Republic has ratified it, but the president still needs to sign it. The still need to "deposit" the treaty in Rome, as do Poland and Germany. Only when all member states deposit it will it be finished. It will take effect the beginning of the next month after the final depositing.

Interesting times as the possibility of a country with 27 states, dozens of languages and cultures, 550 million people, an established global currency, massive military spending and an approximate third of the worlds money is extremely likely to be born in the next 5 years.

Sounds like the Roman Empire.

reply to post by octotom


Yes, that did happen, the candidates in question said that they now viewed being tight with the EU as Irelands best future because of the economic crisis.. so much for sticking to your guns.

I voted no in the Lisbon treaty but that for a number of reasons and not all of them involved just Ireland.. I wanted more transparency, a commissioner for every state and a number of other things.. most of these have been given so I am relatively happy. I am probably not going to vote in the next election.

Yes, the Czech President has sufficient power to block the treaty from passing but will sign off on it in the near future.

Are you German? Or just living in Germany? What are your views on the EU superstate?

The EU is a joke anyway. By creating this entity Europeans just admitted to the world that they're inferior to the Americans.

At least before the latter started becoming dumb, fat, entitled and started boycotting the French in solidarity with one idiot Colin Powell.

Who's boycotting who, now?. Karma's a bitch, ain't it?

reply to post by Dermo


I'm American. My wife is German though, so that's why I'm over here.

What are your views on the EU superstate?

I can answer this in one of two ways. The first is that I don't think it's a good thing, the way that it is now. This is because things are seemingly being forced down the throats of the member states/citizens without them knowing. Some of the EU laws are stupid too. [[For example, I read a few months ago that the EU banned the use of "women titles" [In English they'd be, Mrs. Ms.]. Another one I encountered when I lived in Hungary and was studying--you're not allowed to air dry your clothes in a dorm room.]] If the people had more say and Brussels was more transparent, things would be different. If Brussels is working for the people, and the people want a "USE", who am I to say no? If I were European though, I would much rather keep my national sovreignty than create a superstate, but that may just be me.

The other tact that I can take to answer this stems from my faith. The Bible seems to indicate that the Roman Empire will resurrect in the last days. I think that it is very possible that the EU could fulfill this. If that's the case, Europe will be united again and it's going to happen no matter what goes on to try to stop it [or keep it goin']. So, the EU can be good or bad depending on what side of the coin you're on when it's all wrapped up.

Originally posted by eldard
The EU is a joke anyway. By creating this entity Europeans just admitted to the world that they're inferior to the Americans.

At least before the latter started becoming dumb, fat, entitled and started boycotting the French in solidarity with one idiot Colin Powell.

Who's boycotting who, now?. Karma's a bitch, ain't it?

Funny the way that happens.. The euro's were better than you lot, then you lot were better, now they are, then the chinese will be, then the indians, then the americans, then the euros again..

Im Irish anyway, not European, as Iv said a million times on this site..

We never had an empire so never thought we were better than anyone else.. therefore we can give ye as much stick as we like because we can do it without hypocrisy.

reply to post by octotom


Yea, I think the majority of people are split 50:50 on the issue, to be fair though, nationalism is long dead in the western European mainland and most people seem happy to become part of something new and big. Its probably something to do with the fact that all those countries still have their superpower legacies and deep down would like to be a part of something like that again...

As long as it becomes a proper democracy and leaves the majority of laws to the member states while acting mainly as a federal overseer of interstate laws and economics, then im happy enough to be involved in it.

This kind of system can only last for a hundred years at the most before the power becomes properly centralized and eventually you get something like what is going on in the US with the government at the moment..

Ill be long dead by then so..

Related links:

www.timesonline.co.uk...

The EU is like some fascist nightmare that just won't go away. Tony Blair, the most despised person in Europe is probably set to become the permanent EU president. This is truly an insult to the British people who thought we'd seen the last of this moron and puts the EU in it's true light. Given half the chance, Barmy Blair will no doubt give Hitler a run for his money. Just what Europe needs, a self deluded sociopath running the show, who apparently talks with God and God talks back. God help us all.

It beggars belief how anyone can trust all these politicians and those pulling the strings behind the scene to bring this all about. None of them have any values to speak of and most of them are nothing more than criminals or even worse.

As far as I'm concerned, they can shove their treaty where the sun don't shine. Didn't vote for it, don't recognise it.

[edit on 19-6-2009 by kindred]

The EU is all about lies & deceit and our treacherous MP's & leader are no better, as they too are lying & deceiving everyone.

McKenna rubbishes concept of 'legal guarantees' on Lisbon Treaty

People’s Movement chairperson Patricia McKenna has accused the Government of engaging in a cynical exercise of “political manipulation”.

Speaking on behalf of the People’s Movement, which successfully campaigned against ratification of the Lisbon Treaty in last year’s referendum, McKenna said: “These so-called ‘legal guarantees’ on the Lisbon Treaty are nothing more than an exercise in creative manipulation designed to mislead the public.

“This decision-making procedure which the Government are currently participating in does not exist as a legal instrument of the summits.

“It was invented by the EU’s political elite as very creative way of giving people an illusion of a legal certainty, which does not exist. The so-called ‘decision’ changes absolutely nothing in the treaties. If it were to change even a single word, then it would have to go through new ratifications in all member states in order to be validated.”

“A ‘decision’ in the summit is not a legally binding document that requires ratification by member states. A common ‘declaration’ which may express the intentions of today’s politicians accompanies it, but it does not stop future politicians from meddling with these ‘assurances’.”

“Another example of the ‘creativity’ of this whole process is the fact that Ireland will have its own Irish declaration which will not be signed by any other member state.

“Such unilateral declarations cannot be accepted as legitimate political promises. If Ireland had been able to get other member states to agree to what is in our own Irish declaration then it would have been part of the joint declaration or the decision.”

Can Gordon Brown be any more treacherous. Food For Thought: Gordon Brown as the EU’s First Full-Time President?

José Manuel Barroso is all but certain to be reappointed as European Commission president. But who will get the other plum European Union jobs that will soon be up for grabs? The most startling suggestion I have heard in recent days - and it came from a high-ranking EU diplomat - is that the EU’s first ever full-time president could be none other than Prime Minister Gordon Brown of the UK.

Brown may have been promised the job if he agrees to wait until the Lisbon Treaty has been fully ratified by all 27 EU countries before calling the UK’s next general election.

Barring exceptional circumstances, the latest date he can hold this is Thursday 3 June 2010. Although Britain has already ratified the treaty, Brown’s major worry is that the main opposition party in Britain might hold a referendum on it if it is elected to power and the treaty has not yet been fully ratified in all 27 EU countries.

As things stand, four countries - Ireland, the Czech Republic, Poland and Germany - have yet to ratify the treaty. In the Czech Republic, the parliament has passed it but President Vaclav Klaus has refused to sign it, as also has President Lech Kaczynski in Poland. As long as they hold out, the treaty cannot come into force.

In Germany, meanwhile, the treaty's fate currently hangs on a Court Ruling. Latest reports suggest that Ireland will have its second referendum on the treaty in late September or early October and that the EU now sees the UK, not Ireland, as the greatest threat to its full and final ratification.

blogs.ft.com...
www.eu-referendum.org...

OP.... nice post! I'm from across the waters and i'd just like to say that we never got a chance to vote on this thing and have never had a referendum when we put people in charge of Government.... I'm sick of this "Democracy" really... how can it be a Democracy when we never get a say in anything? As for a 27 state Empire i think in some ways it could be good but in others there's a big language barrier.... i already can't understand what people are saying.... i think that if you are going to live in England then you should speak English and if you are going to live in Russia for example then you should speak Russian etc etc.... also what will happen to all the Middle Easterns shall we say.... are they going to start behaving like Europeans and dressing to fit in or are they going to continue on in their own little world? I can't understand them either.... I preferred it before this Country opened up it's gates to be honest... although i don't mind other cultures i just didn't want to be living here as if i didn't belong here or wasn't born here because that's what it feels like sometimes as if i am the foreignor.... i think if you want to be Muslim and wear your Burqas then you should do it back in your own Country and if you want to come here but not bother to speak English in public places then you should not be here....

[edit on 20-6-2009 by TruthxIsxInxThexMist]

Oh please. Not Hash Brown as president.

reply to post by TruthxIsxInxThexMist


Some good points!!

The main places you can really see "Europe" working at the moment on the western mainland.. Ireland and the UK are still pretty seperate but are getting there.. I think English is definitely going to be the main language for the EU... over 50% of the population speak it!

Hopefully the muslims will integrate more..I must say that I see them making a big effort here in Ireland but that may be because there is not a huge amount of them. i understand that there are serious problems arising with muslim ghetto's in Belgium, France and Holland.

We can only wait and see..

Originally posted by Dermo
reply to post by TruthxIsxInxThexMist

 

Some good points!!

The main places you can really see "Europe" working at the moment on the western mainland.. Ireland and the UK are still pretty seperate but are getting there.. I think English is definitely going to be the main language for the EU... over 50% of the population speak it!

Hopefully the muslims will integrate more..I must say that I see them making a big effort here in Ireland but that may be because there is not a huge amount of them. i understand that there are serious problems arising with muslim ghetto's in Belgium, France and Holland.

We can only wait and see..

Yes, there are places here where if you walked into the neighborhood you would think you had just stepped into another time zone.... I just don't think Labour thought all this through thoroughly enough.... how do you think the EU could or would implement 'English' to be the main language?

reply to post by TruthxIsxInxThexMist


I don't think it would "implement" it as such, as I said, something like 51% (and growing) of EU citizens can hold a conversation in English and its the global language of business so its only a matter of time until pretty much everyone can speak it.. whether or not it becomes the official EU language.. I find it hard to see that happening tbh.. the french wouldn't like that haha

Originally posted by Dermo
reply to post by TruthxIsxInxThexMist

 

I don't think it would "implement" it as such, as I said, something like 51% (and growing) of EU citizens can hold a conversation in English and its the global language of business so its only a matter of time until pretty much everyone can speak it.. whether or not it becomes the official EU language.. I find it hard to see that happening tbh.. the french wouldn't like that haha

It's true i suppose.... you know what? It's mainly when i'm on public transport or in the betting shop that it bugs me big time..... also a few months ago when it snowed big time over here i walked through the park and i just felt like i was in another country it's that bad!

The French? yes.... not too sure they would like it that much....

This site is bloody huge......... how do you get round to everything? So many topics to browse......

English is being taught in almost EU countries at schools as a mandatory subject, altough some don't like to learn it or to speak it as i´ve noticed in several travellings: Spanish, Italians the French...

I personally like the idea of an EU more united like we are now, with the same currency, open borders as its so easy to travel betwen EU countries now and i love to do that... I think its fascinating to explore each other countries and traditions and diferent ways of life..... so i think countries of EU should maintain their own characteristics as a country and not to try standardize us all with a single law for every member. I am proud to be an europen citizen and i think we should all be and should not just point fingers to bad things, point them to the good things too and you will se that you will need alot of fingers to count them

[edit on 20-6-2009 by polar]

[edit on 20-6-2009 by polar]

Yes we would need a national language if we were to become one country I don't think the french would want it to be english maby we would need to have a new language like in india they have hindi, I think they did invent a european language called esparanto.

Originally posted by polar
English is being teached

Obviously not very well haha

We don't really need a common language tho, it works pretty well as it is.
I already know English, Irish, a decent amount of German and some French.. Most people in mainland Europe know a few languages.. we all just need to learn a few to get by easier..

Originally posted by polar
English is being taught in almost EU countries at schools as a mandatory subject, altough some don't like to learn it or to speak it as i´ve noticed in several travellings: Spanish, Italians the French...

I personally like the idea of an EU more united like we are now, with the same currency, open borders as its so easy to travel betwen EU countries now and i love to do that...

I think its fascinating to explore each other countries and traditions and diferent ways of life..... so i think countries of EU should maintain their own characteristics as a country and not to try standardize us all with a single law for every member. I am proud to be an europen citizen and i think we should all be and should not just point fingers to bad things, point them to the good things too and you will se that you will need alot of fingers to count them

[edit on 20-6-2009 by polar]

[edit on 20-6-2009 by polar]

I think it all depends how you look at it.... over here we opened up our borders and now we have illegals coming in via the Euro Tunnel and we also have vicious murderers over here now from other EU states, do you know that the planned Multicultural Society has sort of backfired? It's because those who come tend to stick to people from the same Country's! And we could already travel to Europe without there being a need for an EU state!

And religion has really seperated the people..... this is no joke!