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Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Hi ATSers,
no matter if Chritianity accepts it or not; Masonry is more inline with the correct conveyance of the original and spiritual/occult ideals represented within the biblical mysteries; as can be deduced by the symbolic context of biblical stories and the close relationship of these stories to Masonic ritual.
The first requirement in becoming a Mason is belief in God the creator. Masons don't believe that they are God, they worship He who created them in His image, just like you do.
Originally posted by Tir_McDohl
There is a huge difference between Christianity and Masonry. Us Christians do not believe that we are God expressed in many forms. We believe that we are created beings with God abiding within us. We are not God but created by God. We need God and God does not need us.
Originally posted by JoshNorton
The first requirement in becoming a Mason is belief in God the creator. Masons don't believe that they are God, they worship He who created them in His image, just like you do.
I suppose that's fair enough. Masonry's party line is "to make good men better". It's not about worship, it's not explicitly religious, but many of its foundations, morals, etc are based on the Old Testament.
Originally posted by Imago Dei
Im not a mason basher, I think they mean well, my contention is that men dont join the masons for Godly reasons or unGodly reasons. Would that be a fair comment?
Only 14 of 44 US Presidents have been Masons, so I'm not sure you can really draw a correlation. As a matter of fact, the number of men who are Masons has dropped significantly and steadily over the last 40 years (starting to come back now, but the numbers are not nearly what they were in, say, the 1950s). Proportionally, the number of people who happen to be in positions of power who are also Masons has dropped as well. To the best of my knowledge there are only 2 or 3 Masons currently in congress, if that. I think maybe one state governor is currently a Mason. People assume anyone in a position of power is a Mason, but it's simply not true.
It would appear that one can not even be considered to be a president of the United states with out being a member of certain Masonic orders. In other words, certain positions and levels of achievement are closed unless one is a member, hence one joins so as to have an open door for political financial asperations Ie it's a means to another end. Can you see what I'm getting at.
Originally posted by JoshNorton
I suppose that's fair enough. Masonry's party line is "to make good men better". It's not about worship, it's not explicitly religious, but many of its foundations, morals, etc are based on the Old Testament.
Originally posted by Imago Dei
Im not a mason basher, I think they mean well, my contention is that men dont join the masons for Godly reasons or unGodly reasons. Would that be a fair comment?
Only 14 of 44 US Presidents have been Masons, so I'm not sure you can really draw a correlation. As a matter of fact, the number of men who are Masons has dropped significantly and steadily over the last 40 years (starting to come back now, but the numbers are not nearly what they were in, say, the 1950s). Proportionally, the number of people who happen to be in positions of power who are also Masons has dropped as well. To the best of my knowledge there are only 2 or 3 Masons currently in congress, if that. I think maybe one state governor is currently a Mason. People assume anyone in a position of power is a Mason, but it's simply not true.
It would appear that one can not even be considered to be a president of the United states with out being a member of certain Masonic orders. In other words, certain positions and levels of achievement are closed unless one is a member, hence one joins so as to have an open door for political financial asperations Ie it's a means to another end. Can you see what I'm getting at.
Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Although the Christian Concept was 'high-jacked' by Emperor Constantine on 20th May AD325, when the creation of what we now call 'the chuch' took place with his announcement of the Council Of Nicea; Masonic ritual carries a heritage that has been traced back to the Hermetic practices of the High-priests of ancient Egypt.
I guess the reason I evaded that is because there's not an easy answer. Do SOME people join it hoping to get ahead in life? Sure. And I'm sure a lot who do probably go away disappointed, because it just doesn't work like that. But there are any number of other reasons why someone might join. When I became a Mason, I did so more thinking of it as a self-help class with philosophical and spiritual underpinnings which used universal allegory to allow me to re-examine my own life and place in the world. But that's just me.
Originally posted by Imago Dei
You have been able to evade the question and point I was making because of my wrong assumption however, the point I was making as to real motivation as to why men join the masons is because they think they will get a head in life financially becuase of the network, not because of any spiritual motivation, can you verify or refute that please?
Originally posted by JoshNorton
I guess the reason I evaded that is because there's not an easy answer. Do SOME people join it hoping to get ahead in life? Sure. And I'm sure a lot who do probably go away disappointed, because it just doesn't work like that. But there are any number of other reasons why someone might join. When I became a Mason, I did so more thinking of it as a self-help class with philosophical and spiritual underpinnings which used universal allegory to allow me to re-examine my own life and place in the world. But that's just me.
Originally posted by Imago Dei
You have been able to evade the question and point I was making because of my wrong assumption however, the point I was making as to real motivation as to why men join the masons is because they think they will get a head in life financially becuase of the network, not because of any spiritual motivation, can you verify or refute that please?
There are some people who become Masons because Masonry can be a great way to contribute both financially and in deed and service to your community. The Shiners burn hospitals, Scottish Rite learning centers for people with dyslexia, and various other local and national programs are in place that could be really appealing to someone who feels philanthropy is the key to happiness.
There are some people who become Masons because Masonry allows them to explore esoteric teachings, a wide variety of symbolisms, philosophies, etc. This could be really appealing to someone who feels that learning is a lifelong quest, and drinking from that bottomless well is the key to happiness.
There are some people who become Masons because Masonry allows them to practice ritual that has gone mostly unchanged for more than 300 years. These people live for order, memorization, the perfect display of precision. To them, being able to carry on this age-old tradition is the key to happiness.
And still others become Masons because Masonry offers them fraternity—a sense of brotherhood, camaraderie and belonging that they might not have been able to find elsewhere. To them, having a network of friends who have their back through thick and thin. Brothers to celebrate with during the best of times, and commiserate with during the worst of times. Such belonging, to them, is the key to happiness.
And no, I don't begrudge any of the above their motivations for joining Masonry, because it is all of that and more. In truth, it's what YOU bring to it that makes it special to YOU. And somehow, we all manage to get along.
Originally posted by JoshNorton
Originally posted by randomguy
masons: take oaths that if they betray the secrets emparted to them they will die
but Jesus said:
Matthew 5:34 “But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36 “Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 “But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.
That oaths are permissible to Christians is shown by the example of Our Lord (Mat. 26:63) and of Paul; (11 Cor. 1:23; Gal. 1:20) and even God Himself (Heb. 6:13-18). Consequently when Christ said "Swear not at all" (Mat. 5:34), He was laying down the principle that the Christian must not have two standards of truth, but that his ordinary speech must be as sacredly true as his oath. In the kingdom of God, where the principles hold sway, oaths become unnecessary.
'The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia' (1949), Vol.4, p.2173
masons have a hierarchical power structure
Luke 22:25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.
So having a manager at work is bad? Great for self-employed people, damnation for the rest of us?
[edit on 6/24/2009 by JoshNorton]
Originally posted by dominicus
Plus all my enlightenments came from reading the NT and getting Baptized. I completely disregarded the OT during all that time because of all the killings in the name of God and other stuff.
Basically, just go within, meditate, self inquiry, gnosticism, gospel of thomas, NT, advaita, Vasistha, Tao, dzogchen, these are all connected. Just find yourself a mystic teacher. You don't need masonry or to belong to some Xtian church. The kingdom of heaven is within. Best ritual is meditation.
I still Love you Kriskali, no offense buddy.
So all of the tid-bits of truth in philosophy and practical relegia that I've come across in all my years of research... I see Masonry has already brought together.
Too bad that I seem to have found out all too late.
[......] And i see the Masons realizing those dreams.
[...] more masonic promotion
and if we all hold a common collective-unconscious field of existence here on earth..
Ezekiel 8: 9 And he said to me, “Go in and see the wicked and detestable things they are doing here.” 10 So I went in and looked, and I saw portrayed all over the walls all kinds of crawling things and detestable animals and all the idols of the house of Israel. 11 In front of them stood seventy elders of the house of Israel,[...] Each had a censer in his hand, and a fragrant cloud of incense was rising. 12 He said to me, “Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol? They say, ‘The Lord does not see us; the Lord has forsaken the land.’” 13 Again, he said, “You will see them doing things that are even more detestable.” 14 Then he brought me to the entrance to the north gate of the house of the Lord, and I saw women sitting there, mourning for Tammuz. 15 He said to me, “Do you see this, son of man? You will see things that are even more detestable than this.” 16 He then brought me into the inner court of the house of the Lord, and there at the entrance to the temple, between the portico and the altar, were about twenty-five men. With their backs toward the temple of the Lord and their faces toward the east, they were bowing down to the sun in the east. 17 He said to me, “Have you seen this, son of man? Is it a trivial matter for the house of Judah to do the detestable things they are doing here? Must they also fill the land with violence and continually provoke me to anger? Look at them putting the branch to their nose! 18 Therefore I will deal with them in anger; I will not look on them with pity or spare them. Although they shout in my ears, I will not listen to them.”
so when the end days of the apocalypse is pushed through.. and the bible is "over"... is there any use for a bible at that point?
Originally posted by Tir_McDohl
Masonry at it's higher levels is based on the lie told in the Garden of Eden. It is in complete opposition with Christianity.
God bless!
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
And where exactly in the Bible does it say Lucifer was ever an angel? Oh, right. It doesn't. That was Milton, a 17th century poet, who wrote that. Not the word of God.
Originally posted by Tir_McDohl
In fact the Bible states that Lucifer was created perfect..
Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Originally posted by Tir_McDohl
I disagree with you on your thought of having to experience evil to understand good. That is stated nowhere in the Bible and therefore a mere assumption. The angels appear to have a firm grasp of good and evil.. yet the Bible does not ever state that they were once infected by sin as we are.. In fact the Bible states that Lucifer was created perfect..
Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Angels were created perfect yet know good from evil. They have the choice to obey or disobey (sin) the will of God.
Due to Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit.. we now have to learn the hard way. God in His mercy did not take away our opportunity for eternal life.. He has given us another way to receive it as a workaround. This is why we must remain humble and thankful.
Therefore.. I strongly disagree with your assumption that to know good.. you must experience evil. I believe that to be a lie. The Bible states this nowhere.. The angels were created as perfect beings yet know.. Therefore that idea is pure assumption.
Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
The ability to discern or judge what is true, right, or lasting; insight.
Originally posted by JoshNorton
And where exactly in the Bible does it say Lucifer was ever an angel? Oh, right. It doesn't. That was Milton, a 17th century poet, who wrote that. Not the word of God.
Originally posted by Tir_McDohl
In fact the Bible states that Lucifer was created perfect..
Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.