Hey Kriskali777,
Its funny you posted this, cause I would actually disagree and say the closest thing to True Xtianity is Christian Mysticism.

Things is, every system of thought, including Masonry, is teaching it's members that what they teach is the closest to the truth. that is everywhere in every path in every teaching.

Difference in Xtian Mysticism is that you directly experience the truth, enlightenment, God directly yourself. So instead of a person with an Ego telling you how it is, you surpass all intellect/logic/reason and see transcendence and God for yourself.

One thing I still can't wrap my head around, since I have a few Mason friends, is that Masons only read/go by the Old Testament. The New Testament is completely disregarded according to my masonic friends.

Personally, I still feel the OT is bogus and represents the Demiurge, whereas the NT represents the True God as Jesus taught.

Plus all my enlightenments came from reading the NT and getting Baptized. I completely disregarded the OT during all that time because of all the killings in the name of God and other stuff.

Basically, just go within, meditate, self inquiry, gnosticism, gospel of thomas, NT, advaita, Vasistha, Tao, dzogchen, these are all connected. Just find yourself a mystic teacher. You don't need masonry or to belong to some Xtian church. The kingdom of heaven is within. Best ritual is meditation.

I still Love you Kriskali, no offense buddy.

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
Hi ATSers,
no matter if Chritianity accepts it or not; Masonry is more inline with the correct conveyance of the original and spiritual/occult ideals represented within the biblical mysteries; as can be deduced by the symbolic context of biblical stories and the close relationship of these stories to Masonic ritual.

I completely agree.

I came to know this in a completely reverse manner though.
through research into the occult and esoteric schools of thought and philosophy of ancient Egypt and Greece, The Kabbala, Gnostic teachings, I found bit by bit correlations that have already been all amalgamated into a concise and refined practice in Masonry.

So all of the tid-bits of truth in philosophy and practical relegia that I've come across in all my years of research... I see Masonry has already brought together.

Too bad that I seem to have found out all too late.

I think I would have been a great Mason. All the mystery all the realization of the great dream...
I went through life being one who dreams...
with MUCH OPPOSITION to those dreams...
and equally as much negation from others for even thinking them.
I have also been someone who has an insatiable urge to realize those dreams..
And i see the Masons realizing those dreams.

Sometimes I wish I had been introduced to it earlier in life.. and I wouldn't have had to find all the knowledge on my own... but I guess that's what's made it so much more authentic for me.. the fact that I had logically come up with these ideas in my own mind already... and researched them.. and found direct parallels in ancient books of knowledge.. then found that the brightest minds in history were following these same paths all along through Masonry.

But yes.. it's saddening to me to see the children's-book version of christianity being the commonly held absolute perception of the mythology...
and if we all hold a common collective-unconscious field of existence here on earth..
then that children's book version of percieving reality is, in my opinion...indeed poisoning the collective mind of mankind in a very twisted way where it seems as a gleaming fuzzy warm illusion.

Viewing the bible through these my own lenses of understanding reveals to me it's absolute ingenious nature.. all the hidden knowledge.. all the allegorical instructional passages...
the physiological mappings..
phenomenal.
I can say this for the Torah as well.

so when the end days of the apocalypse is pushed through.. and the bible is "over"...

is there any use for a bible at that point? is there any use for "old-christianity" at that point?

seems once you get to the end of a book...
it's time to write another one.
but this time the book doesn' t have an ending............

-

[edit on 24-6-2009 by prevenge]

There is a huge difference between Christianity and Masonry. Us Christians do not believe that we are God expressed in many forms. We believe that we are created beings with God abiding within us. We are not God but created by God. We need God and God does not need us.

Masonry at it's higher levels is based on the lie told in the Garden of Eden. It is in complete opposition with Christianity.

God bless!

Originally posted by Tir_McDohl
There is a huge difference between Christianity and Masonry. Us Christians do not believe that we are God expressed in many forms. We believe that we are created beings with God abiding within us. We are not God but created by God. We need God and God does not need us.

The first requirement in becoming a Mason is belief in God the creator. Masons don't believe that they are God, they worship He who created them in His image, just like you do.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

The first requirement in becoming a Mason is belief in God the creator. Masons don't believe that they are God, they worship He who created them in His image, just like you do.

Im not a mason basher, I think they mean well, my contention is that men dont join the masons for Godly reasons or unGodly reasons. Would that be a fair comment? Do they really worship God persay. Most clubs or organisations have requirements for membership, generally they are agreed to in order to become a member so as to receive certain benefits of being a member. Thats often as far as it goes.

It would appear that one can not even be considered to be a president of the United states with out being a member of certain Masonic orders. In other words, certain positions and levels of achievement are closed unless one is a member, hence one joins so as to have an open door for political financial asperations Ie it's a means to another end. Can you see what I'm getting at.

Im not saying all who join churches join for Godly reasons, many join up to be able to marry the woman or man they love etc.

I just want a straight forward honest answer from a mason on this straight forward question. Anyone??

This thread has started with the premise that Masons are more Christian than Christians. And we all know that the Church endures immense scrutiny and immense criticism for hypocrisy, and rightly so. How then can a mason make such claims, when they are in effect a secret hidden society with no real accountability as to what goes on behind closed doors. Not to mention the fact that I have Masonic family members and friends who did not join up to seek God they where seeking mamon. You cannot worship God and mamon.


In response to another poster: The closest thing to true Christianity is Biblical Christianity which is where the name comes from. Christianity is from the bible.

Mystic Christianity is counterfeit resembling pagan new age beliefs, all stolen from the bible and basicallly twisted and perverted.

God gave us His word so that we can clearly identify any counterfeit.

Sticking the word Christain into a name doesn't make it Christian.

Having said that "mystic" or Gnostic "Christianity" is the same as or very close to Masonic teachings. The G in the masonic logo stands for Gnosticism.




[edit on 24-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Originally posted by Imago Dei
Im not a mason basher, I think they mean well, my contention is that men dont join the masons for Godly reasons or unGodly reasons. Would that be a fair comment?

I suppose that's fair enough. Masonry's party line is "to make good men better". It's not about worship, it's not explicitly religious, but many of its foundations, morals, etc are based on the Old Testament.

It would appear that one can not even be considered to be a president of the United states with out being a member of certain Masonic orders. In other words, certain positions and levels of achievement are closed unless one is a member, hence one joins so as to have an open door for political financial asperations Ie it's a means to another end. Can you see what I'm getting at.

Only 14 of 44 US Presidents have been Masons, so I'm not sure you can really draw a correlation. As a matter of fact, the number of men who are Masons has dropped significantly and steadily over the last 40 years (starting to come back now, but the numbers are not nearly what they were in, say, the 1950s). Proportionally, the number of people who happen to be in positions of power who are also Masons has dropped as well. To the best of my knowledge there are only 2 or 3 Masons currently in congress, if that. I think maybe one state governor is currently a Mason. People assume anyone in a position of power is a Mason, but it's simply not true.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Imago Dei
Im not a mason basher, I think they mean well, my contention is that men dont join the masons for Godly reasons or unGodly reasons. Would that be a fair comment?

I suppose that's fair enough. Masonry's party line is "to make good men better". It's not about worship, it's not explicitly religious, but many of its foundations, morals, etc are based on the Old Testament.

It would appear that one can not even be considered to be a president of the United states with out being a member of certain Masonic orders. In other words, certain positions and levels of achievement are closed unless one is a member, hence one joins so as to have an open door for political financial asperations Ie it's a means to another end. Can you see what I'm getting at.

Only 14 of 44 US Presidents have been Masons, so I'm not sure you can really draw a correlation. As a matter of fact, the number of men who are Masons has dropped significantly and steadily over the last 40 years (starting to come back now, but the numbers are not nearly what they were in, say, the 1950s). Proportionally, the number of people who happen to be in positions of power who are also Masons has dropped as well. To the best of my knowledge there are only 2 or 3 Masons currently in congress, if that. I think maybe one state governor is currently a Mason. People assume anyone in a position of power is a Mason, but it's simply not true.

Thanks for the response. Ok point taken about the president = mason. You have been able to evade the question and point I was making because of my wrong assumption however, the point I was making as to real motivation as to why men join the masons is because they think they will get a head in life financially becuase of the network, not because of any spiritual motivation, can you verify or refute that please? I dont have an issue or a problem with this motivation, there is nothing wrong with trying to network to get ahead. I have a problem with people claiming it's true Christianity and super spritual, because that's utter bilge.

I met a mason the other day, he was out front about it, very proud to be a one, also in the rotary and local community board , into restoring old buildings for posterity, works is arse off in real estate aswell very proud of his antigue funriture and the bigggest house in the street, holiday home by the sea he was proud of too and what have you in is late 60 or 70s. Lovely bloke. Good on him. But the premis of this thread is ludicrous in the extreme. If anything masonry is open to people of all faiths and religions arent they? It would appera his connectyion in teh rotary and the coucnil and the masons havenot hindered his financial properity, did it help? Who knows? Wouldnt hurt. Again no problem with that. You mention the old testament, is it a required reading for all mason?











[edit on 25-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Originally posted by Imago Dei
You have been able to evade the question and point I was making because of my wrong assumption however, the point I was making as to real motivation as to why men join the masons is because they think they will get a head in life financially becuase of the network, not because of any spiritual motivation, can you verify or refute that please?

I guess the reason I evaded that is because there's not an easy answer. Do SOME people join it hoping to get ahead in life? Sure. And I'm sure a lot who do probably go away disappointed, because it just doesn't work like that. But there are any number of other reasons why someone might join. When I became a Mason, I did so more thinking of it as a self-help class with philosophical and spiritual underpinnings which used universal allegory to allow me to re-examine my own life and place in the world. But that's just me.

There are some people who become Masons because Masonry can be a great way to contribute both financially and in deed and service to your community. The Shiners burn hospitals, Scottish Rite learning centers for people with dyslexia, and various other local and national programs are in place that could be really appealing to someone who feels philanthropy is the key to happiness.

There are some people who become Masons because Masonry allows them to explore esoteric teachings, a wide variety of symbolisms, philosophies, etc. This could be really appealing to someone who feels that learning is a lifelong quest, and drinking from that bottomless well is the key to happiness.

There are some people who become Masons because Masonry allows them to practice ritual that has gone mostly unchanged for more than 300 years. These people live for order, memorization, the perfect display of precision. To them, being able to carry on this age-old tradition is the key to happiness.

And still others become Masons because Masonry offers them fraternity—a sense of brotherhood, camaraderie and belonging that they might not have been able to find elsewhere. To them, having a network of friends who have their back through thick and thin. Brothers to celebrate with during the best of times, and commiserate with during the worst of times. Such belonging, to them, is the key to happiness.

And no, I don't begrudge any of the above their motivations for joining Masonry, because it is all of that and more. In truth, it's what YOU bring to it that makes it special to YOU. And somehow, we all manage to get along.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Imago Dei
You have been able to evade the question and point I was making because of my wrong assumption however, the point I was making as to real motivation as to why men join the masons is because they think they will get a head in life financially becuase of the network, not because of any spiritual motivation, can you verify or refute that please?

I guess the reason I evaded that is because there's not an easy answer. Do SOME people join it hoping to get ahead in life? Sure. And I'm sure a lot who do probably go away disappointed, because it just doesn't work like that. But there are any number of other reasons why someone might join. When I became a Mason, I did so more thinking of it as a self-help class with philosophical and spiritual underpinnings which used universal allegory to allow me to re-examine my own life and place in the world. But that's just me.

There are some people who become Masons because Masonry can be a great way to contribute both financially and in deed and service to your community. The Shiners burn hospitals, Scottish Rite learning centers for people with dyslexia, and various other local and national programs are in place that could be really appealing to someone who feels philanthropy is the key to happiness.

There are some people who become Masons because Masonry allows them to explore esoteric teachings, a wide variety of symbolisms, philosophies, etc. This could be really appealing to someone who feels that learning is a lifelong quest, and drinking from that bottomless well is the key to happiness.

There are some people who become Masons because Masonry allows them to practice ritual that has gone mostly unchanged for more than 300 years. These people live for order, memorization, the perfect display of precision. To them, being able to carry on this age-old tradition is the key to happiness.

And still others become Masons because Masonry offers them fraternity—a sense of brotherhood, camaraderie and belonging that they might not have been able to find elsewhere. To them, having a network of friends who have their back through thick and thin. Brothers to celebrate with during the best of times, and commiserate with during the worst of times. Such belonging, to them, is the key to happiness.

And no, I don't begrudge any of the above their motivations for joining Masonry, because it is all of that and more. In truth, it's what YOU bring to it that makes it special to YOU. And somehow, we all manage to get along.

The camaraderie would attract me, it's hard to find that in the world. I used to have it in my young sporting days. Never found it in the church sadly which I never quite figured out.

Great answer, thanks for the effort. All the best to you.

[edit on 25-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by randomguy
masons: take oaths that if they betray the secrets emparted to them they will die

but Jesus said:

Matthew 5:34 “But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36 “Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 “But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.

That oaths are permissible to Christians is shown by the example of Our Lord (Mat. 26:63) and of Paul; (11 Cor. 1:23; Gal. 1:20) and even God Himself (Heb. 6:13-18). Consequently when Christ said "Swear not at all" (Mat. 5:34), He was laying down the principle that the Christian must not have two standards of truth, but that his ordinary speech must be as sacredly true as his oath. In the kingdom of God, where the principles hold sway, oaths become unnecessary.
'The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia' (1949), Vol.4, p.2173

It is one thing to swear, and another to swear on something.

Masons swear on their bodys (that their throats will be slit, etc), in direct contradiction to this verse:

36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black.

And dont forget this verse:

37 “But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.

So Jesus says swearing on your head is from evil, but you say those who swear on their heads are true christians ?

masons have a hierarchical power structure

Luke 22:25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.

So having a manager at work is bad? Great for self-employed people, damnation for the rest of us?

[edit on 6/24/2009 by JoshNorton]

hahaha, more spin.

Jesus was talking about the "kingdom of God", which is what the christian church is suposed to be like (to bad it isnt), and not about your work place.

Jesus washed the feet of his disciples and said he who wants to be greater in his "organization" must be a servant.

He also said give to Cesar what belongs to Cesar and to God what belongs to God.

He didnt say that if you join a hierarchical organization as a work place it is bad, he said to his disciples to not let their organization become hierarchical.

42 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
43 Not so with you.Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20)


Now you say: "Masonry = The true christianity"


And I havent even gotten into the real serious stuff:


The HOLY SPIRIT:


16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” (Mark 16)


Love your enemy.

Turn the other cheek.

Originally posted by dominicus


Plus all my enlightenments came from reading the NT and getting Baptized. I completely disregarded the OT during all that time because of all the killings in the name of God and other stuff.

Basically, just go within, meditate, self inquiry, gnosticism, gospel of thomas, NT, advaita, Vasistha, Tao, dzogchen, these are all connected. Just find yourself a mystic teacher. You don't need masonry or to belong to some Xtian church. The kingdom of heaven is within. Best ritual is meditation.

I still Love you Kriskali, no offense buddy.

That is a contradiction. Nowhere in th NT it says to go inside yourself and meditate.

John 14:22 Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

"If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."

Galatians 6:2 "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.


John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”


Isaiah 53:

5.[...] Do you really think this will please the LORD?

6 "No, the kind of fasting I want calls you to free those who are wrongly imprisoned and to stop oppressing those who work for you. Treat them fairly and give them what they earn.

7 I want you to share your food with the hungry and to welcome poor wanderers into your homes. Give clothes to those who need them, and do not hide from relatives who need your help.

8 "If you do these things, your salvation will come like the dawn. Yes, your healing will come quickly. Your godliness will lead you forward, and the glory of the LORD will protect you from behind.

Notice the last verse: "If you do these things, your salvation will come like the dawn. Yes, your healing will come quickly."

I disagree with you on your thought of having to experience evil to understand good. That is stated nowhere in the Bible and therefore a mere assumption. The angels appear to have a firm grasp of good and evil.. yet the Bible does not ever state that they were once infected by sin as we are.. In fact the Bible states that Lucifer was created perfect..

Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Angels were created perfect yet know good from evil. They have the choice to obey or disobey (sin) the will of God.

Due to Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit.. we now have to learn the hard way. God in His mercy did not take away our opportunity for eternal life.. He has given us another way to receive it as a workaround. This is why we must remain humble and thankful.

Therefore.. I strongly disagree with your assumption that to know good.. you must experience evil. I believe that to be a lie. The Bible states this nowhere.. The angels were created as perfect beings yet know.. Therefore that idea is pure assumption.

Originally posted by Tir_McDohl
In fact the Bible states that Lucifer was created perfect..

Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

And where exactly in the Bible does it say Lucifer was ever an angel? Oh, right. It doesn't. That was Milton, a 17th century poet, who wrote that. Not the word of God.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Tir_McDohl
In fact the Bible states that Lucifer was created perfect..

Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

And where exactly in the Bible does it say Lucifer was ever an angel? Oh, right. It doesn't. That was Milton, a 17th century poet, who wrote that. Not the word of God.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.

(Ezekiel 28)

“You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.

(Ezekiel 28)
I would have to say that a cherub is an angel.
I have one word only, and it's the name of the god the free masons are later encouraged to worship when they reach the level of Royal Arch Masonry, or the 7th degree.
Anyway,
jahbuhlun. (jah-baal-on)
The name jahbuhlun has three syllables representing a composite God made up of three subordiante deities. The masonic material later identifies the three as Yah (or Yahweh), baal, and osiris. Logically, the name should be spelled yah-baal-on, but Duncan's Masonic Ritual and Monitor admits that over the years the spelling has been "corrupted" by freemasonry until it reached it's current form.

PHILLIPPIANS 2: 9-11

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exhalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Tell me the significance,
when my husband goes to work and talks to a freemasonic individual who happens to go out of town once a month, come back, and tell him of the explicit sexual stories he experienced in a very mysterious way. He said, as he looked behind him and side to side, "we know where King Solomon's gold is" and compared freemasonry not to Christianity but, " More like the Skulls" a fraternity at Yale University George Bush and George W. Bush are alumni of.
put this into perspective.
1 of the seven deadly sins happens to be premarrital sex. They're not deadly sins because you will go to hell, but naturally because you will die an early death, and if you look around at the increase in vinerial disease, it's well over 200% within the last 50 years! Even though God will forgive you, you still reap consequences. Another source of information is the movie with Tom Cruz "Eyes wide shut". It emphasizes on the illuminati as satanists and their secret monthly meetings consisting of orgies and murders. The director of this move died 4 days later after his final cut was submitted. Can anyone other than me make a real life connection between this freemason and this movie? This material is brought to my husband at his workplace as a sort of marketing scam to join the masonic fraternity. How is that Christian?
Her's another point,
This person referred freemasonry not to christianity but to the "Skulls" fraternity at Yale unversity. 2+2=4 right?
well, the symbol of a skull in itself represents a dead human, and if a fraternity is using that as a sybolic front for their organization, what can I assume they stand for? And why in the world is baphomet carved into stone in the entryway at Yale unversity? It's safe to say I think, alot of freemasons happen to be architects right? The same architects that constructed Yale? The Yale where the horned god baphomet is carved in stone??
freemasonry in itself, regrdless of what they stand for cannot be Christian, because Christians who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed in the Holy Bible can't belong to a secret society. It IS disrespectful and BLASPHEMIC to God to hide anything from him.
BTW don't freemasons often make secret hand signs that would mean harm to someone who tell's their secrets? Like the fist below the chin? How does that work with Christanity? God says, if you are not with me you are against me. So it doesn't matter what you believe, If it's not in Jesus you will go to hell. There's only black and white