Stop with this cult of personality nonsense. This is the 21st century not middle ages. If Evasius wants to post his opinons on this thread, let him,
if not let him be. To come here and post such betamale drivel is quite frankly insulting to those of us that would rather discuss the issue than look
at doe eyed cultists swooning over their latest saviour figure.
Think for yourselves for once. Grow up. You guys are just as dangerous as the people who dream up this prophetic nonsense, it's your numbers and
empowered ignorance that leads entire societies in error, because you're apparently unable to give a topic enough atention to understand it and just
accept the opinions of others as doctrine. Even when they're nothing more than manipulative drivel, which may or may not be the case here. Which is
probably the case here, it is almost always drivel when used as a tool of prophecy and this sort of thing is usually done with insider knowledge of
projected future events so as to inspire cult admiration in lesser minds. Wake up. Religions are built, usually by psychopaths, based on this very
slight of hands and entrapment of minds. And I think everyone knows the amount of misery organised religion has spewn on this world.
*sighs*
timewave zero / 2012 : the falacy , page 2
privacy
reply posted on 25-6-2009 @ 08:13 AM by Mindmelding
reply to post by mortalengine
So our quota is 4? Ok, noted.
When something is as important as the sort of prophetic science that the timewave theory proposes, then yes, you should dedicate the time. I am not a fan of knowledge by proxy and think everyone should make an effort to know by themselves. There's a lot of noise out there, which makes it hard, but the truth about most things turns out to be simple. Reality has a fractal geometry, this much is known, and fractals are complex patterns born out of simple equations. This shows that reality can be understood with simple premisses, as it's structure is complexity from simplicity. But of course, we have to find the right simplicity, not be induced in error.
I am open to the idea of fractal structure in time, I've said as much in a previous post on Evasius' thread. What I am saying is not so much a negation of the principle but a warning about the effects. It's dangerous to atribute knowledge of prophetic mechanisms to a third party, as history is full of examples of third parties using insider knowledge to manipulate populations. It's at the very genesis of religion and organised hierarchical civilization. It's a form of consent to spirtual slavery.
This may or may not be the case with Evasius, but I am hypercritical of any topic which allows for any form of prophecy, and so far what I see is just the overlay of a fractal pattern on what could be considered a random sequence of human events.
Fractal patterns are not definitive. Think of your heartbeat. It has set patterns but if you want to on a whim run a marathon in the middle of the night your body will let you. If you want to get healthy and change the average heartbeat your body will let you. Will can superimpose itself on fractal patterns, they are not definitive. The same can be said about the fractal patterns of history in a timewave, a phase shift event can change them totally, and this event does not have to be apocaliptic, it can be something as simple as global awareness through an electric global nervous system. Ok, that's not so simple. But we have it now, it's called the internet and it could change the patterns of history by it's very existance.
All of the above to say something simple: say no to false prophets as they limit your freedom.
[edit on 25-6-2009 by Mindmelding]
So our quota is 4? Ok, noted.
When something is as important as the sort of prophetic science that the timewave theory proposes, then yes, you should dedicate the time. I am not a fan of knowledge by proxy and think everyone should make an effort to know by themselves. There's a lot of noise out there, which makes it hard, but the truth about most things turns out to be simple. Reality has a fractal geometry, this much is known, and fractals are complex patterns born out of simple equations. This shows that reality can be understood with simple premisses, as it's structure is complexity from simplicity. But of course, we have to find the right simplicity, not be induced in error.
I am open to the idea of fractal structure in time, I've said as much in a previous post on Evasius' thread. What I am saying is not so much a negation of the principle but a warning about the effects. It's dangerous to atribute knowledge of prophetic mechanisms to a third party, as history is full of examples of third parties using insider knowledge to manipulate populations. It's at the very genesis of religion and organised hierarchical civilization. It's a form of consent to spirtual slavery.
This may or may not be the case with Evasius, but I am hypercritical of any topic which allows for any form of prophecy, and so far what I see is just the overlay of a fractal pattern on what could be considered a random sequence of human events.
Fractal patterns are not definitive. Think of your heartbeat. It has set patterns but if you want to on a whim run a marathon in the middle of the night your body will let you. If you want to get healthy and change the average heartbeat your body will let you. Will can superimpose itself on fractal patterns, they are not definitive. The same can be said about the fractal patterns of history in a timewave, a phase shift event can change them totally, and this event does not have to be apocaliptic, it can be something as simple as global awareness through an electric global nervous system. Ok, that's not so simple. But we have it now, it's called the internet and it could change the patterns of history by it's very existance.
All of the above to say something simple: say no to false prophets as they limit your freedom.
[edit on 25-6-2009 by Mindmelding]
reply posted on 29-6-2009 @ 09:03 AM by Evasius
reply to post by atlscribe
Some of us are adults with jobs and families that take priority over personal interests and the ‘responsibility’ of responding to anonymous questions and criticism in these forums.
I have no need to set anyone straight, only to re-present the facts about the program and then let the reader take it or leave it as they see fit.
Some of us are adults with jobs and families that take priority over personal interests and the ‘responsibility’ of responding to anonymous questions and criticism in these forums.
I have no need to set anyone straight, only to re-present the facts about the program and then let the reader take it or leave it as they see fit.
reply posted on 29-6-2009 @ 09:09 AM by Evasius
reply to post by ignorant_ape
I honestly expected more from your argument given the title of the thread. It’s entirely based on the semantics of the word “chosen” and your assumption that the mathematics of the program relied on 2012 in any way.
The Timewave is a standalone fractal graph described by the mathematics available from Peter Meyer on the page you linked to. It’s a set of numbers that repeat where each subsequent cycle shrinks in length. It continues forward to infinity but is given the value of zero to keep things simple. It also continues backwards to infinity, but is generally cut-off at the beginning of known human civilization in order to keep it a finite representation (natural history can also be mapped if you want to extend the wave further into the past). So rather than having an infinitely long wavy line, you’ve got something you can work with.
McKenna then took this standalone fractal graph and compared it to history. He had the numbers 384…24,576…1,572,864…100,663,296 (each subsequent value obtained by multiplying the previous by 64 – the number of hexagrams in the I-Ching), and so on. Using those number sets to represent individual days, he compared his repeating saw-tooth graph to a linear timeline of history. He noticed the same peaks and troughs repeating throughout history and then began the undertaking of attempting to correlate ‘big’ events to major shifts in the wave.
Within the timewave, each cycle is connected by a ‘hinge’ in the wave where the next section is the smaller representation of the fractal set. These points were considered to be the most major shifts as they give rise to the next phase of history. McKenna was most interested in seeing how the 20th Century compared to the wave, so he began possible correlations to see if the peaks and troughs in the graph matched the ‘highs’ and ‘lows’ of history. Using the hinge described above as an anchor point, McKenna decided to align the hinge in the graph with August 6, 1945 (the nuclear attack on Hiroshima). With that point as the deciding factor of all other points, you could say the process begins with that date, not with Dec. 21, 2012 as you assumed.
The earliest zero date calculated using August 6, 1945 as the crucial point was November 16, 2012 (this was the result of using an early number set, and was what McKenna believed to be the end date in the wave – this was his belief during most of the 1970’s). Later through different calculations using slight variations of the King Wen sequence, he settled on Dec. 22, 2012 around 1991 (after being made aware of the Mayan calendar end date). Then around 1993 with the release of version 4.3 of the DOS software, he correlated zero date with Dec. 21, 2012 using the 4 wave calculations (Kelley, Watkins, Sheliak, HuangTi).
www.hermetic.ch...
Well, no. The timewave works both forwards and backwards from a point in history. The zero date is then decided by the ‘hinge’ date of August 6, 1945. Like I said, the timewave is a standalone fractal wave – you can try and place it anywhere you like, but the best-fit as discovered by McKenna is with the last cycle beginning around the moment of the Hiroshima bomb.
There is no running backwards and stating it runs forwards, etc. It is what it is.
Again, no. The calculations are based on the number 64. That number is key to the ancient Chinese I-Ching (which the program is based on). It’s a philosophical text dated from around 2800BC and maps ‘change’ through time, in fact I Ching means ‘Book of Changes.’ These changes the book tracks are identified by 64 individual hexagrams, all with different meanings.
Here are the individual hexagrams of the I-Ching:
McKenna recorded the number of lines that changed from one hexagram to the next and graphed it as a simple wave. He then took that graph, reversed it on itself and then combined the two.
Then he combined these end to end to get three variations – then overlaid all 3 to get a final graph.
That graph was the averaged to get the timewave cycle. I describe it simply, but McKenna would obviously describe the process better.
So it’s a little more involved than picking any ‘ole numbers and repeating them.
Once again, no. Use any other numbers, and you will get an entirely different graph. Try it.
It is not a ‘simply recursive sequence.’ It’s a repeating fractal set that shrinks to infinity as it progresses forward. The program attempts to show that time is in fact a repetitive fractal cycle and most serious discussions on the matter use historical data to prove this.
Resonances are not ‘cherry picked.’ Correlative time windows in the past are not flexible, and the history itself is not flexible. When I compare our present to the same place in a previous cycle, what appears is not a random comparison. There is only one event window that shadows the present, and whatever appears there is not able to be altered.
Like I stated, what appears in the event window are non-flexible historical data. Most often, the repeat of the past in the present is an echo and mirrors the past event quite clearly. In many cases, no other ‘random’ events would suit the correlation.
Non-matching events are not ignored, it’s simply that not every single event in history is repeated, only major ‘themes’ in history, especially ones that affect the future the most…and ones most likely to repeat are the ones that directly affect the precise point in the future cycle.
McKenna’s work is not ‘twaddle.’ I’m working on fleshing out the details of his work in his absence (as are many people who find this subject interesting). It’s a work in progress and requires time and history to continue. This world seeks to prove that time follows a cyclic pattern, not that ‘we’re all gonna die.’
There are many questions that come up about this program when you consider the implications. And yes, it has its imperfections - it's based on McKenna's idea of 'novelty,' and the timewave map relies on his correlations, and one assumption - that the Hiroshima atomic blast was the most 'novel' event of the 20th Century.
You’re welcome to your opinions, just as anyone is who reads anything about the subject. But you would do yourself a great service by actually basing your stance on actual facts rather assumptions.
[edit on 29/6/09 by Evasius]
Originally posted by ignorant_ape
ok - as " time wave zero " seems to be the latest ` big stir ` in the 2012 cult - it is prudent to have a closer look at just how 2012 and TWZ became intertwined
the answer ?
its a arbitrary " correlation " decided on a whim by the creators of the ` program ` -
read the creators own admission here
the time wave is zero at only one point , when x=0 . for x> 0 the value of the wave is positive , the zero point is the point in time CHOSEN to correspond to the value zero for x , the usual point used is 6 am on December 21st 2012 ( known as the zero date ) thus the time wave has a positive value for all points prior to the zero date , is zero only at the zero point and is undefined after the zero point
rather than being the ` end point ` 2012 is actually the START of the TWZ process
I honestly expected more from your argument given the title of the thread. It’s entirely based on the semantics of the word “chosen” and your assumption that the mathematics of the program relied on 2012 in any way.
The Timewave is a standalone fractal graph described by the mathematics available from Peter Meyer on the page you linked to. It’s a set of numbers that repeat where each subsequent cycle shrinks in length. It continues forward to infinity but is given the value of zero to keep things simple. It also continues backwards to infinity, but is generally cut-off at the beginning of known human civilization in order to keep it a finite representation (natural history can also be mapped if you want to extend the wave further into the past). So rather than having an infinitely long wavy line, you’ve got something you can work with.
McKenna then took this standalone fractal graph and compared it to history. He had the numbers 384…24,576…1,572,864…100,663,296 (each subsequent value obtained by multiplying the previous by 64 – the number of hexagrams in the I-Ching), and so on. Using those number sets to represent individual days, he compared his repeating saw-tooth graph to a linear timeline of history. He noticed the same peaks and troughs repeating throughout history and then began the undertaking of attempting to correlate ‘big’ events to major shifts in the wave.
Within the timewave, each cycle is connected by a ‘hinge’ in the wave where the next section is the smaller representation of the fractal set. These points were considered to be the most major shifts as they give rise to the next phase of history. McKenna was most interested in seeing how the 20th Century compared to the wave, so he began possible correlations to see if the peaks and troughs in the graph matched the ‘highs’ and ‘lows’ of history. Using the hinge described above as an anchor point, McKenna decided to align the hinge in the graph with August 6, 1945 (the nuclear attack on Hiroshima). With that point as the deciding factor of all other points, you could say the process begins with that date, not with Dec. 21, 2012 as you assumed.
The earliest zero date calculated using August 6, 1945 as the crucial point was November 16, 2012 (this was the result of using an early number set, and was what McKenna believed to be the end date in the wave – this was his belief during most of the 1970’s). Later through different calculations using slight variations of the King Wen sequence, he settled on Dec. 22, 2012 around 1991 (after being made aware of the Mayan calendar end date). Then around 1993 with the release of version 4.3 of the DOS software, he correlated zero date with Dec. 21, 2012 using the 4 wave calculations (Kelley, Watkins, Sheliak, HuangTi).
www.hermetic.ch...
so its utter dishonesty to set a capricious start date - for a sequence that infact works back wards
then turn around and claim that it actually " runs " forwards - and that there is some significance to the 2012 ` end point `
Well, no. The timewave works both forwards and backwards from a point in history. The zero date is then decided by the ‘hinge’ date of August 6, 1945. Like I said, the timewave is a standalone fractal wave – you can try and place it anywhere you like, but the best-fit as discovered by McKenna is with the last cycle beginning around the moment of the Hiroshima bomb.
There is no running backwards and stating it runs forwards, etc. It is what it is.
the math of TWZ is actually quite revealing once you peer past the hype –
the simple summary is that you start with a series of numbers – and run them through a repetitive equation
that’s it – all there is to it
Again, no. The calculations are based on the number 64. That number is key to the ancient Chinese I-Ching (which the program is based on). It’s a philosophical text dated from around 2800BC and maps ‘change’ through time, in fact I Ching means ‘Book of Changes.’ These changes the book tracks are identified by 64 individual hexagrams, all with different meanings.
Here are the individual hexagrams of the I-Ching:
McKenna recorded the number of lines that changed from one hexagram to the next and graphed it as a simple wave. He then took that graph, reversed it on itself and then combined the two.
Then he combined these end to end to get three variations – then overlaid all 3 to get a final graph.
That graph was the averaged to get the timewave cycle. I describe it simply, but McKenna would obviously describe the process better.
So it’s a little more involved than picking any ‘ole numbers and repeating them.
the resultant graph looks pretty and has recurring patterns – but they mean nothing , because its simply a recursive sequence – its INTENDED TO BE THAT WAY – USING THE SAME NUMBERS AND SAME EQUATRION – YOU CANNOT GET ANYTHING ELSE
even the ` starting data ` is arbitrary – you could use ANY set of numbers – and you would get a similar graph – from the same equations and yes it would have recurring patterns too and if you set the y axis of the graph to an arbitrary calendar – it produces ` resonances ` if you cherry pick events
Once again, no. Use any other numbers, and you will get an entirely different graph. Try it.
It is not a ‘simply recursive sequence.’ It’s a repeating fractal set that shrinks to infinity as it progresses forward. The program attempts to show that time is in fact a repetitive fractal cycle and most serious discussions on the matter use historical data to prove this.
Resonances are not ‘cherry picked.’ Correlative time windows in the past are not flexible, and the history itself is not flexible. When I compare our present to the same place in a previous cycle, what appears is not a random comparison. There is only one event window that shadows the present, and whatever appears there is not able to be altered.
and all ` correlations ` of events are simply forced fit patter finding – any even that ` matches ` a date is used – however vague or tenuous the ` connection `
and anything that doesn’t match is ignored
Like I stated, what appears in the event window are non-flexible historical data. Most often, the repeat of the past in the present is an echo and mirrors the past event quite clearly. In many cases, no other ‘random’ events would suit the correlation.
Non-matching events are not ignored, it’s simply that not every single event in history is repeated, only major ‘themes’ in history, especially ones that affect the future the most…and ones most likely to repeat are the ones that directly affect the precise point in the future cycle.
the entire ` science ` of it is UTTER TWADDLE – they started off with a conclusion , and manufactured the data to ` prove ` the claim true .
and now there is thread after thread on ATS
McKenna’s work is not ‘twaddle.’ I’m working on fleshing out the details of his work in his absence (as are many people who find this subject interesting). It’s a work in progress and requires time and history to continue. This world seeks to prove that time follows a cyclic pattern, not that ‘we’re all gonna die.’
There are many questions that come up about this program when you consider the implications. And yes, it has its imperfections - it's based on McKenna's idea of 'novelty,' and the timewave map relies on his correlations, and one assumption - that the Hiroshima atomic blast was the most 'novel' event of the 20th Century.
You’re welcome to your opinions, just as anyone is who reads anything about the subject. But you would do yourself a great service by actually basing your stance on actual facts rather assumptions.
[edit on 29/6/09 by Evasius]
reply posted on 29-6-2009 @ 10:33 PM by Evasius
reply to post by Mindmelding
I'm glad you're open to the concept. For a 'hypercritcal' mind such as yours to be open to the cyclic nature of time is really saying something. Simple fractal structures are the basis of many things in the physical world, and most complexity can be narrowed down to a very simple code. I'm sure you would agree that patterns describing matter and space could also work for time as well (and would consider it worthy of further investigation).
It's placed parallel to our historical timeline with one major event in the past as the anchor point which likewise places the point where it reaches infinity at another point in time - that point is in the future and given the value of zero. Rather than being forced into alignment, it lines up naturally. The result is a best-fit alignment, not a crammed fit or a presumptuous result.
Much of this hype around 2012 is fear based manipulation, and I am very wary of those hyping it while trying to sell something - I'm not selling anything. I think the program costs about $15, but if you look hard enough I'm sure you can score yourself a copy elsewhere (not that I'm promoting that). It should be obvious however that 'raking it in' is not my motivation when it comes to this subject.
Prophecy IS dangerous, especially if you let it affect your decisions so much in that you become consumed with fear and choose stagnate in your den. It's also bad if you spend your life waiting for certain things to happen rather than bringing about the change you seek.
I disagree however about not needing to know the future. Human endeavors are based on forethought and planning. Imagination is the key in planning your own future. We do this by learning from the past AND looking towards the future. This timewave program builds upon that forethought to some extent by bringing to your attention these cycles we're living so we can merely be prepared for certain 'event windows.' Perhaps we could even use this knowledge of these upcoming special conditions to take the opportunity to steer our species in a better direction.
While I'm open to time having a fractal structure and to the concept of "the ages of man", I do tend to agree with you that the timewave is just a simplistic overlay of a fractal pattern on human history, with a "force fit" mentality underlining the whole process.
I'm glad you're open to the concept. For a 'hypercritcal' mind such as yours to be open to the cyclic nature of time is really saying something. Simple fractal structures are the basis of many things in the physical world, and most complexity can be narrowed down to a very simple code. I'm sure you would agree that patterns describing matter and space could also work for time as well (and would consider it worthy of further investigation).
If indeed it is calculated backwards from the arbitrary start point then yes, "utter twaddle" would sum it up.
It's placed parallel to our historical timeline with one major event in the past as the anchor point which likewise places the point where it reaches infinity at another point in time - that point is in the future and given the value of zero. Rather than being forced into alignment, it lines up naturally. The result is a best-fit alignment, not a crammed fit or a presumptuous result.
2012 is just fear based manipulation. Whatever happens on that date imo will be the manipulation of fear by economic forces in their own interest, which is par for the course in human history.
Much of this hype around 2012 is fear based manipulation, and I am very wary of those hyping it while trying to sell something - I'm not selling anything. I think the program costs about $15, but if you look hard enough I'm sure you can score yourself a copy elsewhere (not that I'm promoting that). It should be obvious however that 'raking it in' is not my motivation when it comes to this subject.
All prophecy is dangerous, because there will always be those that fit it, or even fabricate it so it fits, into their own agendas. And prophecy is really unnecessary to human endeavours, we don't need to know the future but to learn from the past...
Prophecy IS dangerous, especially if you let it affect your decisions so much in that you become consumed with fear and choose stagnate in your den. It's also bad if you spend your life waiting for certain things to happen rather than bringing about the change you seek.
I disagree however about not needing to know the future. Human endeavors are based on forethought and planning. Imagination is the key in planning your own future. We do this by learning from the past AND looking towards the future. This timewave program builds upon that forethought to some extent by bringing to your attention these cycles we're living so we can merely be prepared for certain 'event windows.' Perhaps we could even use this knowledge of these upcoming special conditions to take the opportunity to steer our species in a better direction.
reply posted on 29-6-2009 @ 10:44 PM by Evasius
reply to post by Essan
Sorry Essan, the Timewave has only one 'end date' associated with it. That date is in fact an expiry date for the program's relevance, however not for the human race. There is no choosing another to better suit our 'plans of gathering sheeple.' Likewise I share your obvious disdain for organized religion, though religious metaphors are quite literally incoherent when used in reference to this program. If you think there's something religious about what the program says, then that's an issue you'll have to work out for yourself.
They'll do as they did after 1999/2000 and 2003 etc and just move on to another date - and the sheeple will fall hook line and sinker once again. (Though sheeple is a bit of an unfair name because I believe sheep have longer memories and even on occasion learn from their mistakes .....
Sorry Essan, the Timewave has only one 'end date' associated with it. That date is in fact an expiry date for the program's relevance, however not for the human race. There is no choosing another to better suit our 'plans of gathering sheeple.' Likewise I share your obvious disdain for organized religion, though religious metaphors are quite literally incoherent when used in reference to this program. If you think there's something religious about what the program says, then that's an issue you'll have to work out for yourself.
reply posted on 29-6-2009 @ 10:59 PM by Evasius
reply to post by Essan
It can, and it does. The cyclic fractal map of time goes back to the beginning of time - supposing that it indeed began. It maps natural time along with the human aspect of it, however human history seems to be the driving force behind the accelerative repetition of each cycle.
Withhold your silly remarks before researching it properly (that is if you actually care to).
This is not a religion. This does not prophecize "doomsday" as that unfortunately titled History Channel special supposed. Reaching zero is not an end. The zero stands for infinite change, not death, not the end of all things, but a major shift in our progress as humans - perhaps even change in what makes us human. "Apocalypse" is an idea placed upon the timewave by people who are either afraid of change or are actually seeking the end of mankind.
Aye, hoaxers don't like it when they're found out
I guess this timewave rubbish would have more validity if it went back 4,600,000,000 or so years - after all, in terms if history, human existance is not even a gnat on an elsphant's back.
It can, and it does. The cyclic fractal map of time goes back to the beginning of time - supposing that it indeed began. It maps natural time along with the human aspect of it, however human history seems to be the driving force behind the accelerative repetition of each cycle.
Withhold your silly remarks before researching it properly (that is if you actually care to).
Not that that troubles the religious or wannabe religious preachers. And lets face it, timewave is just another 'new age' wannabe religion with only a very few years to live - note: when starting an apocalyse religion, set the date just beyond your likely lifespan, than you can reap the benefits without getting the angry pitchfork waving mob coming after you when the apocaplyse (or ascension or whatever) fails to arrive
This is not a religion. This does not prophecize "doomsday" as that unfortunately titled History Channel special supposed. Reaching zero is not an end. The zero stands for infinite change, not death, not the end of all things, but a major shift in our progress as humans - perhaps even change in what makes us human. "Apocalypse" is an idea placed upon the timewave by people who are either afraid of change or are actually seeking the end of mankind.
reply posted on 29-6-2009 @ 11:28 PM by Evasius
reply to post by Novise
My mistake. However I wouldn't call it 'ignored.' I read it and intended to reply, but before I knew it I had 11 pages of stuff to get through. Apologies. I hope this post makes up for it.
McKenna's graph ended with an infinite point no matter if it correlated with Year 1 AD, today, or 12/12/2012. Like I stated a few times above (I really want to drive this point home), the graph is lined up with the 'presumed' most novel point in the 20th Century - the Hiroshima bombing. That's the anchor point. With that point set, it all fits, and the zero point becomes 12/12/2012. It was settled on after the fact, not based on it.
And so what's the 0 supposed to look like? It should be viewed as 'infinite' rather than 'nothing' - or 'all' as opposed to 'none.' The wave tracks change, progress, connectedness, awareness, and all these things approach infinity around that time in our history.
I hope after reading some of what I've posted above that this assumption is cleared up for you somewhat. The Timewave does not lend that kind of flexibility to the calculations and resulting zero date. You could try and match the fractal wave up with whatever you want, but it would be meaningless. Try it.
I honestly can't give this any more credibility. The credibility comes from how the wave matches history, and I don't control that. If you feel it doesn't represent time accurately (after having researched this a bit), then it's really not up to me to continually pester everyone with reasons why I think it does.
I made a statement along these lines in the timewave post. It was ignored as all the posts around it were replied to.
My mistake. However I wouldn't call it 'ignored.' I read it and intended to reply, but before I knew it I had 11 pages of stuff to get through. Apologies. I hope this post makes up for it.
I just said, "Look if the creator of the graph puts the value as 0 at December 12, 2012, what's it supposed to look like?" It's only 0 there because they say it is. And just cause you have all these squiggly lines leading to an apparent singularity, doesn't automatically give it more credibility.
If in someone elses opinion, they think 12/12/2012 will be a normal day, then on their graph it's going to look much different. Really this is ridiculous if they are going to be so vague about what constitutes the value.
McKenna's graph ended with an infinite point no matter if it correlated with Year 1 AD, today, or 12/12/2012. Like I stated a few times above (I really want to drive this point home), the graph is lined up with the 'presumed' most novel point in the 20th Century - the Hiroshima bombing. That's the anchor point. With that point set, it all fits, and the zero point becomes 12/12/2012. It was settled on after the fact, not based on it.
And so what's the 0 supposed to look like? It should be viewed as 'infinite' rather than 'nothing' - or 'all' as opposed to 'none.' The wave tracks change, progress, connectedness, awareness, and all these things approach infinity around that time in our history.
So I can draw a graph over the last century, and make it go to 0 everytime there is a war started. WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and now I can put another 0 point in a future date say 2020 and now say, "oh hey look, there it goes." This PROVES we are going to have a war in 2020!
I hope after reading some of what I've posted above that this assumption is cleared up for you somewhat. The Timewave does not lend that kind of flexibility to the calculations and resulting zero date. You could try and match the fractal wave up with whatever you want, but it would be meaningless. Try it.
I may not be using the same logic as you, and your argument may be stronger than mine, but really... like you I don't understand where the credibility comes from. Because only moments into the idea I already had this question and hangup, and so far nobody has answered it.
I honestly can't give this any more credibility. The credibility comes from how the wave matches history, and I don't control that. If you feel it doesn't represent time accurately (after having researched this a bit), then it's really not up to me to continually pester everyone with reasons why I think it does.
reply posted on 29-6-2009 @ 11:39 PM by Evasius
reply to post by delius
We're currently discussing this a bit more thoroughly on the 'Countdown to Transition' thread, especially in a few of the most recent posts. It does indeed seem to correlate with huge galactic cycles whose residues have been found in Earth's crust.
I haven't concluded though if the timewave is the same for only the Earth, only for our system, only for our galaxy, or possibly the entire universe. That's a big question, one we may never have the answer to. Given that it tracks human events so precisely, I tend to think timewaves are like the fractal thumbprints of civilizations throughout the universe. That said, I can also see how the timewave would be the general gridwork over which an infinite number of realities could form.
[edit on 30/6/09 by Evasius]
In addition to the arbitrary end date selected, I've wondered how this correlates to Earth.
Specifically, if the same math works anywhere in our universe (or even the Milky way), does that mean that all places in the Universe or our galaxy follow the graphs of Timewave Zero?
People try to map Earth events to the changes in the graphs, but what about planetary, solar systems, and galaxies?
We're currently discussing this a bit more thoroughly on the 'Countdown to Transition' thread, especially in a few of the most recent posts. It does indeed seem to correlate with huge galactic cycles whose residues have been found in Earth's crust.
I haven't concluded though if the timewave is the same for only the Earth, only for our system, only for our galaxy, or possibly the entire universe. That's a big question, one we may never have the answer to. Given that it tracks human events so precisely, I tend to think timewaves are like the fractal thumbprints of civilizations throughout the universe. That said, I can also see how the timewave would be the general gridwork over which an infinite number of realities could form.
[edit on 30/6/09 by Evasius]
reply posted on 30-6-2009 @ 12:30 AM by Evasius
reply to post by Novise
With the timewave anchored in place around August 6, 1945, the wave reaches infinity at Dec. 2012. The wavy line is given a value that maps the perceived level of change referred to as novelty. The distance between the highest value and the lowest (zero) determined how the novelty values were divided up - each point on the graph is then given a number which is usually shown as +0.0000000. There is nothing special about the values along the left other than showing how close you are to the zero baseline at any given time.
Not sure what you're referring to here - 1's, 2's and 10's don't really play a massive role on the graph. The numbers used are simply shown to be counting down. Zero was chosen to represent and infinite total - so as the numbers count down, they represent an upward progression. McKenna just chose to represent the process as a reduction rather than attempting to work with ever-growing numbers.
There has to be a variable. What is the variable and WHO DECIDES what the variable is going to be for the given day.
With the timewave anchored in place around August 6, 1945, the wave reaches infinity at Dec. 2012. The wavy line is given a value that maps the perceived level of change referred to as novelty. The distance between the highest value and the lowest (zero) determined how the novelty values were divided up - each point on the graph is then given a number which is usually shown as +0.0000000. There is nothing special about the values along the left other than showing how close you are to the zero baseline at any given time.
This isn't about the 0's in my example. I was going to use 1's or 10's instead of 0's in my example because I thought somebody might use that example as a straw man and attack the use of 0's which have nothing to do with that point. But then I thought this is ATS they will see what I mean, and lo and behold... My example, you can use 1's 2's or 10's or whatever, it doesn't change the point.
Not sure what you're referring to here - 1's, 2's and 10's don't really play a massive role on the graph. The numbers used are simply shown to be counting down. Zero was chosen to represent and infinite total - so as the numbers count down, they represent an upward progression. McKenna just chose to represent the process as a reduction rather than attempting to work with ever-growing numbers.
reply posted on 30-6-2009 @ 12:43 AM by Evasius
reply to post by Mindmelding
As far as I can tell, this doesn't have any relevance whatsoever to the timewave program, nor the infinite change it predicts for our future. The above sounds like something you'd say to an illogical, incoherent, unwavering, and absolutely dangerous religious fanatic, not someone who thinks time repeats in cycles and is trying to track the process.
I offer you no apocalypse, no religious salvation, no damning prophecy, no rules to live by, no beliefs you must adhere to...and I absolutely have no 'cool-aid' for you to drink.
Drop the religious talk. It has no place here.
Think for yourselves for once. Grow up. You guys are just as dangerous as the people who dream up this prophetic nonsense, it's your numbers and empowered ignorance that leads entire societies in error, because you're apparently unable to give a topic enough atention to understand it and just accept the opinions of others as doctrine. Even when they're nothing more than manipulative drivel, which may or may not be the case here. Which is probably the case here, it is almost always drivel when used as a tool of prophecy and this sort of thing is usually done with insider knowledge of projected future events so as to inspire cult admiration in lesser minds. Wake up. Religions are built, usually by psychopaths, based on this very slight of hands and entrapment of minds. And I think everyone knows the amount of misery organised religion has spewn on this world.
As far as I can tell, this doesn't have any relevance whatsoever to the timewave program, nor the infinite change it predicts for our future. The above sounds like something you'd say to an illogical, incoherent, unwavering, and absolutely dangerous religious fanatic, not someone who thinks time repeats in cycles and is trying to track the process.
I offer you no apocalypse, no religious salvation, no damning prophecy, no rules to live by, no beliefs you must adhere to...and I absolutely have no 'cool-aid' for you to drink.
Drop the religious talk. It has no place here.
reply posted on 30-6-2009 @ 07:55 AM by Mindmelding
reply to post by Evasius
Religious talk has everything to do here. You're basically elevating science to prophecy and, in case you haven't noticed, you have a small, but vocal, cult following. Cultists are always dangerous, because they don't think, they react. Alpha-beta group behaviour patterns is why we're in so much trouble today (ponerology).
And at the end of day what you're talking about really is just the overlay of a fractal pattern over a series of historical events. Sure, it fits, but I do suspect we could take the same pattern over a different set of events and they would still fit. So while the idea of a fractal pattern is, as stated, something I'm willing to accept, the idea of a universal novelty pattern pointing to 2012 seems like a fabrication to me. I like Terrence's work with psychadelics and his overall philosophy... but the whole I Ching (ka-ching?) work and the timeline seems to be a bait and switch, pulling people away from the individualistic discovery path of psychadelics and into the vertical hierarchy of prophecy with the centralized control point of access that is the timewave program itself. Which again, is basically a computarized horoscope. Sure, it fits but it's so vague that it's really just overlaying a fractal on reality. The fractal is simple, reality is complex, so it fits well enough to fool a gullible mind, but what does it really mean?
I propose it dosen't mean anything at all. You can't understand a heart from a 10 second auscultation, you can't understand reality from the timewave in your signature.
However, if you want to get into the bigger picture of fractals then maybe we can get somewhere... I enjoy reading your posts although I do feel you're focus is wrong. So please do add anything you want to add regarding this issue. If you can add something that will solidify the timewave's link to history in such a way that I can't ignore it I will reconsider my objections, but for now it really does seem like a force fit of a very general fractal pattern into a specific event chain, forcing a future conclusion (prophecy) that might not be accurate.
I see reality in a simpler pattern. That there is more novelty is not a debate, it's growth is exponential. Our society is climbing this exponential novelty line, but it's just one side of a bell curve. We will reach apex then, as we pick and chose our technology and/or as we decline as a civilization, we will go down the other side of a curve and, over time we will hit bottom and rise up again, perhaps in a few millenia. This is a more plausible graph, it's basically an oscilation or frequency, the same you see on an osciloscope and this, imo, is the real fractal structure of nature... however the frequency itself changes, much the same way the heartbeat frequency of a human changes.
And ultimately what changes the frequency is free will, be it individual, be it the colective sum of free will in society.
Peace.
[edit on 30-6-2009 by Mindmelding]
[edit on 30-6-2009 by Mindmelding]
Religious talk has everything to do here. You're basically elevating science to prophecy and, in case you haven't noticed, you have a small, but vocal, cult following. Cultists are always dangerous, because they don't think, they react. Alpha-beta group behaviour patterns is why we're in so much trouble today (ponerology).
And at the end of day what you're talking about really is just the overlay of a fractal pattern over a series of historical events. Sure, it fits, but I do suspect we could take the same pattern over a different set of events and they would still fit. So while the idea of a fractal pattern is, as stated, something I'm willing to accept, the idea of a universal novelty pattern pointing to 2012 seems like a fabrication to me. I like Terrence's work with psychadelics and his overall philosophy... but the whole I Ching (ka-ching?) work and the timeline seems to be a bait and switch, pulling people away from the individualistic discovery path of psychadelics and into the vertical hierarchy of prophecy with the centralized control point of access that is the timewave program itself. Which again, is basically a computarized horoscope. Sure, it fits but it's so vague that it's really just overlaying a fractal on reality. The fractal is simple, reality is complex, so it fits well enough to fool a gullible mind, but what does it really mean?
I propose it dosen't mean anything at all. You can't understand a heart from a 10 second auscultation, you can't understand reality from the timewave in your signature.
However, if you want to get into the bigger picture of fractals then maybe we can get somewhere... I enjoy reading your posts although I do feel you're focus is wrong. So please do add anything you want to add regarding this issue. If you can add something that will solidify the timewave's link to history in such a way that I can't ignore it I will reconsider my objections, but for now it really does seem like a force fit of a very general fractal pattern into a specific event chain, forcing a future conclusion (prophecy) that might not be accurate.
I see reality in a simpler pattern. That there is more novelty is not a debate, it's growth is exponential. Our society is climbing this exponential novelty line, but it's just one side of a bell curve. We will reach apex then, as we pick and chose our technology and/or as we decline as a civilization, we will go down the other side of a curve and, over time we will hit bottom and rise up again, perhaps in a few millenia. This is a more plausible graph, it's basically an oscilation or frequency, the same you see on an osciloscope and this, imo, is the real fractal structure of nature... however the frequency itself changes, much the same way the heartbeat frequency of a human changes.
And ultimately what changes the frequency is free will, be it individual, be it the colective sum of free will in society.
Peace.
[edit on 30-6-2009 by Mindmelding]
[edit on 30-6-2009 by Mindmelding]
2012, Awakening within, the third eye...it\'s all coming together.
Posted 13 days ago with 38 member flags
Posted 13 days ago with 38 member flags
Newest topics, updated in real-time:
Jacques Vallee: Implications of UFO Phenomena - Thinking Allowed.
Aliens and UFOs, Posted 2 hours ago
Aliens and UFOs, Posted 2 hours ago
Newest topics getting flags, in real-time:
Google accidentally released Maine election results early!
2012 US Elections, Posted 11 hours ago, 49 flags
2012 US Elections, Posted 11 hours ago, 49 flags
Threatened by a Ron Paul victory in Maine, GOP (insider spills beans) adds last minute caucuses.
2012 US Elections, Posted 15 hours ago, 37 flags
2012 US Elections, Posted 15 hours ago, 37 flags
Greek police union wants to arrest EU/IMF officials
Breaking Alternative News, Posted 15 hours ago, 17 flags
Breaking Alternative News, Posted 15 hours ago, 17 flags
Russia : We will take DRASTIC measures if the west doesn't stop their BS with Syria
World War Three, Posted 14 hours ago, 14 flags
World War Three, Posted 14 hours ago, 14 flags
The CIA in Australia: America's Foreign Watergate
Political Conspiracies, Posted 9 hours ago, 13 flags
Political Conspiracies, Posted 9 hours ago, 13 flags
Newest topics getting replies, in real-time:
Google accidentally released Maine election results early!
2012 US Elections, Posted 11 hours ago, 72 replies
2012 US Elections, Posted 11 hours ago, 72 replies
Massive Obama Conspiracy to Kill the Second Amendment
US Political Madness, Posted 13 hours ago, 65 replies
US Political Madness, Posted 13 hours ago, 65 replies
Actor Nicolas Cage finally comes out to talk about his doppelgänger in a civil war era photo.
General Conspiracies, Posted 14 hours ago, 55 replies
General Conspiracies, Posted 14 hours ago, 55 replies
The Above Top Secret Web sites are a
wholly owned social content community of
The Above Network, LLC.
This content community relies on
user-generated content from our member contributors.
The opinions of our members are not those of site ownership
who maintains strict editorial agnosticism and simply provides
a collaborative venue for free expression.
ATS Server: www2.theabovenetwork.com
Header data: 0.003 seconds
Page processed in: 0.510 seconds
wholly owned social content community of
The Above Network, LLC.
This content community relies on
user-generated content from our member contributors.
The opinions of our members are not those of site ownership
who maintains strict editorial agnosticism and simply provides
a collaborative venue for free expression.
ATS Server: www2.theabovenetwork.com
Header data: 0.003 seconds
Page processed in: 0.510 seconds
