I personally know of a case where a father was accused by his daughter on molesting her. He was arrested, sent to prison, served his time and
eventually released. He still had to register as a sexual offender.
He always maintained his innocence. Years later his daughter recanted and revealed that the mans ex-wife, the daughters mother, had concocted the
story during a nasty divorce.
This mans life was ruined because of false allegations by the mother and the child. The mother eventually got religion, and finally confessed that
she had made it all up.
This man served several years in prison due to these lies. The damage cannot be undone. I don't disagree that pedophiles need to be severely
punished, but I have serious doubts about the ability of our justice system to do the right thing.
Pedophile says 'two strikes' law will cause deaths, page 8
privacy
reply posted on 18-6-2009 @ 08:41 AM by Lasheic
reply to post by silo13
If you desire something you know is wrong, harmful, or immoral, there are steps you can take to mitigate your urges. You can make yourself avoid situations you know accommodate the things you desire, you can exert sheer willpower, and you can strike a balance of consciously change your lifestyle to accommodate your level of personal willpower. It takes responsibility and knowing yourself... knowing your limitations, an seeking help or counseling or hospitalization if you find you cannot resist them.
I really loath this word in this context.... but even in a "crime of passion" where the urge overcomes their reasoning, they are still responsible for their actions - because they KNOW they are a pedophile, and they know how strong those urges are, and they didn't take adequate measures to prevent them.
This doesn't mean that they can help being a pedophile though. There's a great many pedophiles out there who have never touched a child sexually, who would commit suicide before allowing themselves to do it... though they've fantasized, RPd, or drew art about it. A great many who suffer with this struggle - and they prevent their urges from harming others. Some of which their family or friends might not even know who they are, they've learned to suppress it so well.
That's why I make a clear distinction, and why I am adverse to "kill em all" banter. Because while I recognize that something must be done to protect children from the unrepentant and proud pedophiles you mentioned to another poster... I just can't justify the mistreatment of those who do recognize the harm in pedophilia, and take the difficult steps to keep it within the realm of fantasy only.
It's all too easy for heated emotions and bigoted rhetoric to get out of control and hurt those who are only guilty of having the misfortune of being born the way they are.
I only offered it because it seemed a fairly substantial (for a niche) fetish concerning a similarly (or as best I could find) extreme taboo.
You don't have to address the point if you don't want to, but for other's reading, the factors behind what determine human sexuality are extremely varied and diverse - ranging from genetic, developmental, and environmental - most profoundly at a young age, but can be acquired later in life as well. As a fetish community when they started having an affinity for their fetish and you'll get a wide range of answers - with a majority typically leaning between early childhood and puberty. So it's perhaps a misnomer to consider pedophilia a "fetish". It is for some, but for others (as mentioned by another poster earlier) it's more of an orientation with clear and consistent brain structure differences that aren't present or as pronounced with "fetish pedos". Some are "born with it", and some aren't.
As for the text I quoted... I certainly sympathize with the sentiment, but considering how many innocent people have been released from death row over the last 10 years, and how many are pending retrials in light of new evidence... I can see a lot of innocent people getting caught up and killed in the fervor. Be they pedophiles who have never, or would ever, harm a child - or some poor SOB who got way too drunk one night and had his girlfriends daughter crawl into bed with him either out of revenge or spite or "love" or whatever. Perhaps it could be a setup by one partner as a ways of gaining leverage in a messy divorce.
That kind of stuff happens quite regularly. My sister's ex is now a convicted pedophile because her daughter from a previous boyfriend (at a very young age) happened to say some things which his parents interpreted as "molestation" - and they sent her to a specialist who pretty much goaded the kid into saying what they wanted her to say. She was just happy for attention. It was enough to build a case, and get him convicted. Though it was eventually overturned... his reputation and life is ruined... and he'd be dead now between a one strike rule and the impassioned unthinking vigilantism which seems to be displayed here.
I don't think execution is a viable across the board policy, especially not the first strike, and certainly not hasted and fueled by hate-filled righteousness the kinds of attitudes some have displayed here.
I understand what you're getting at, but understand where I'm coming from. By the same token, and for argument's sake, if you're male and enjoy getting pegged by a guy once in a while, that doesn't necessarily make you gay. Gay men are attracted sexually to males. You can be totally straight and be unattracted to other men - yet still enjoy being dominated and submitted by "the real thing". Perhaps you have a thing for humiliation, and the more unttracted you are - the hotter it is for you. Perhaps you just enjoy the sensation, and tolerate the guy for the pleasure of your partner.
Human sexuality is extremely diverse - and subtle differences can make worlds of difference. For example, homosexuals, transsexuals, and transvestites are NOT the same - thought they're all lumped together because most people don't take the time to see beyond "WUT? peenor goes where!?"
It's the same with pedophilia. Now if someone rapes an 8 year old kid, they SHOULD be charged with pedophilia... but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are sexually attracted to children. They might just be a rapist, who are often motivated by domination and power, and a rape would have occurred whether the victim be 8 years old, 28, or 78.
While it would certainly feel righteous to agree that the punishment should be the same regardless - there has to be some progress made towards understanding and differentiating between these sexual motivations, finding the root causes of them, and applying justice appropriately and rationally.
Regardless, it's better to try to recognize the differences in motivation, the difference between an act of pedophilia - and a pedophile - and try to understand why these people are the way they are. They're not going to go away on their own, and the best shot we have at preventing future incidence is through understanding. Power comes from knowledge, not the executioners axe. By painting all acts of pedophilia with the same broad stroke of social labeling and punishment - we're merely obscuring the roots of the different sexual motivations - ensuring it's perpetuation, rather than perhaps working on models for preventative measures.
... and you can't change who someone is by threat of death.
Likewise.
Never deny your fellow man the right to their opinion, for it ultimately enslaves you to your own opinions by preventing you from changing them... to paraphrase Paine.
Hah... I believe that is perhaps the first time on ATS I have ever been accused of having an open mind.
I understood it as a contradiction over the behavior of pedophiles who couldn’t control their compulsions vs. couldn’t or wouldn’t control the behavior stemming from the compulsion.
If you desire something you know is wrong, harmful, or immoral, there are steps you can take to mitigate your urges. You can make yourself avoid situations you know accommodate the things you desire, you can exert sheer willpower, and you can strike a balance of consciously change your lifestyle to accommodate your level of personal willpower. It takes responsibility and knowing yourself... knowing your limitations, an seeking help or counseling or hospitalization if you find you cannot resist them.
I really loath this word in this context.... but even in a "crime of passion" where the urge overcomes their reasoning, they are still responsible for their actions - because they KNOW they are a pedophile, and they know how strong those urges are, and they didn't take adequate measures to prevent them.
This doesn't mean that they can help being a pedophile though. There's a great many pedophiles out there who have never touched a child sexually, who would commit suicide before allowing themselves to do it... though they've fantasized, RPd, or drew art about it. A great many who suffer with this struggle - and they prevent their urges from harming others. Some of which their family or friends might not even know who they are, they've learned to suppress it so well.
That's why I make a clear distinction, and why I am adverse to "kill em all" banter. Because while I recognize that something must be done to protect children from the unrepentant and proud pedophiles you mentioned to another poster... I just can't justify the mistreatment of those who do recognize the harm in pedophilia, and take the difficult steps to keep it within the realm of fantasy only.
It's all too easy for heated emotions and bigoted rhetoric to get out of control and hurt those who are only guilty of having the misfortune of being born the way they are.
Ok I want to avoid mixing apples and oranges here so Ill bypass the cannibalism reference
I only offered it because it seemed a fairly substantial (for a niche) fetish concerning a similarly (or as best I could find) extreme taboo.
I most definitely would (if I had the right to make the law) persecute those same people, with death, if they acted on their *compulsions* and raped a child.
You don't have to address the point if you don't want to, but for other's reading, the factors behind what determine human sexuality are extremely varied and diverse - ranging from genetic, developmental, and environmental - most profoundly at a young age, but can be acquired later in life as well. As a fetish community when they started having an affinity for their fetish and you'll get a wide range of answers - with a majority typically leaning between early childhood and puberty. So it's perhaps a misnomer to consider pedophilia a "fetish". It is for some, but for others (as mentioned by another poster earlier) it's more of an orientation with clear and consistent brain structure differences that aren't present or as pronounced with "fetish pedos". Some are "born with it", and some aren't.
As for the text I quoted... I certainly sympathize with the sentiment, but considering how many innocent people have been released from death row over the last 10 years, and how many are pending retrials in light of new evidence... I can see a lot of innocent people getting caught up and killed in the fervor. Be they pedophiles who have never, or would ever, harm a child - or some poor SOB who got way too drunk one night and had his girlfriends daughter crawl into bed with him either out of revenge or spite or "love" or whatever. Perhaps it could be a setup by one partner as a ways of gaining leverage in a messy divorce.
That kind of stuff happens quite regularly. My sister's ex is now a convicted pedophile because her daughter from a previous boyfriend (at a very young age) happened to say some things which his parents interpreted as "molestation" - and they sent her to a specialist who pretty much goaded the kid into saying what they wanted her to say. She was just happy for attention. It was enough to build a case, and get him convicted. Though it was eventually overturned... his reputation and life is ruined... and he'd be dead now between a one strike rule and the impassioned unthinking vigilantism which seems to be displayed here.
I don't think execution is a viable across the board policy, especially not the first strike, and certainly not hasted and fueled by hate-filled righteousness the kinds of attitudes some have displayed here.
If you’re convicted of an act of pedophilia - you’re a pedophile. Sorry, there’s no *let me try it just once to find out* clause in my book.
I understand what you're getting at, but understand where I'm coming from. By the same token, and for argument's sake, if you're male and enjoy getting pegged by a guy once in a while, that doesn't necessarily make you gay. Gay men are attracted sexually to males. You can be totally straight and be unattracted to other men - yet still enjoy being dominated and submitted by "the real thing". Perhaps you have a thing for humiliation, and the more unttracted you are - the hotter it is for you. Perhaps you just enjoy the sensation, and tolerate the guy for the pleasure of your partner.
Human sexuality is extremely diverse - and subtle differences can make worlds of difference. For example, homosexuals, transsexuals, and transvestites are NOT the same - thought they're all lumped together because most people don't take the time to see beyond "WUT? peenor goes where!?"
It's the same with pedophilia. Now if someone rapes an 8 year old kid, they SHOULD be charged with pedophilia... but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are sexually attracted to children. They might just be a rapist, who are often motivated by domination and power, and a rape would have occurred whether the victim be 8 years old, 28, or 78.
While it would certainly feel righteous to agree that the punishment should be the same regardless - there has to be some progress made towards understanding and differentiating between these sexual motivations, finding the root causes of them, and applying justice appropriately and rationally.
I can assure you, the *just once* argument makes no difference at all to a child who's been raped.
Regardless, it's better to try to recognize the differences in motivation, the difference between an act of pedophilia - and a pedophile - and try to understand why these people are the way they are. They're not going to go away on their own, and the best shot we have at preventing future incidence is through understanding. Power comes from knowledge, not the executioners axe. By painting all acts of pedophilia with the same broad stroke of social labeling and punishment - we're merely obscuring the roots of the different sexual motivations - ensuring it's perpetuation, rather than perhaps working on models for preventative measures.
... and you can't change who someone is by threat of death.
But, in saying that I respect your right to your opinion
Likewise.
Never deny your fellow man the right to their opinion, for it ultimately enslaves you to your own opinions by preventing you from changing them... to paraphrase Paine.
but in possession of ~ an open mind.
Hah... I believe that is perhaps the first time on ATS I have ever been accused of having an open mind.
reply posted on 18-6-2009 @ 09:02 AM by Lasheic
reply to post by Kailassa
I wrote what I did because it's the truth, and I did not, in any way say it was excusable. I'm saying that there's a difference between an act of pedophilia - and a pedophile. So calm down mother hen, just because I'm attempting to stay rational doesn't mean I'm defending or slinging apologetic for this vile #. It just means I'm trying to give a worthwhile and thoughtful opinion rather than just hurtling insults and screaming for blood.
The idea that having sex with a child can be excused if the person is "just an adventure seeker, experimenter, etc," is so irretrievably sick I can hardly believe you'd write such a thing.
I wrote what I did because it's the truth, and I did not, in any way say it was excusable. I'm saying that there's a difference between an act of pedophilia - and a pedophile. So calm down mother hen, just because I'm attempting to stay rational doesn't mean I'm defending or slinging apologetic for this vile #. It just means I'm trying to give a worthwhile and thoughtful opinion rather than just hurtling insults and screaming for blood.
reply posted on 18-6-2009 @ 09:18 AM by ItsallCrazy
reply to post by Lasheic
Well then surely that can be applied to anyone.. someone who wants to experiment with murder isn't a murderer by that logic..
Well then surely that can be applied to anyone.. someone who wants to experiment with murder isn't a murderer by that logic..
reply posted on 18-6-2009 @ 09:46 AM by Lasheic
reply to post by ItsallCrazy
Er, no... that's not even applicable because murder is an act, not an orientation hard wired into the brain your born with/develop. The environmental/developmental factors which go into making serial killers can be. Much like pedophiles, they can't really help feeling their urges. It's part of who they are.
While a Serial Killer and someone who experiments with murderer are both guilty of Murder - not everyone who experiments with murder is a serial killer. And I DID say that those who experiment with pedophilia should be convicted with pedophilia charges.
Can you not see the benefit and importance of understanding the difference between Trick Dawg who knocked over the corner Liquor Store owner just to see what it felt like to kill a man... and someone like John Wayne Gayce or Ted Bundy?
[edit on 18-6-2009 by Lasheic]
Er, no... that's not even applicable because murder is an act, not an orientation hard wired into the brain your born with/develop. The environmental/developmental factors which go into making serial killers can be. Much like pedophiles, they can't really help feeling their urges. It's part of who they are.
While a Serial Killer and someone who experiments with murderer are both guilty of Murder - not everyone who experiments with murder is a serial killer. And I DID say that those who experiment with pedophilia should be convicted with pedophilia charges.
Can you not see the benefit and importance of understanding the difference between Trick Dawg who knocked over the corner Liquor Store owner just to see what it felt like to kill a man... and someone like John Wayne Gayce or Ted Bundy?
[edit on 18-6-2009 by Lasheic]
reply posted on 18-6-2009 @ 10:06 AM by ItsallCrazy
reply to post by Lasheic
Well if being a serial killer or paedophile is a part of someone then they don't deserve to be a part of mainstream society or even exist on the face of this planet.
I don't understand how there is any difference between a serial killer and someone who does it for the experience, it's an urge to kill regardless or whether it's one person or a hundred.
Well if being a serial killer or paedophile is a part of someone then they don't deserve to be a part of mainstream society or even exist on the face of this planet.
I don't understand how there is any difference between a serial killer and someone who does it for the experience, it's an urge to kill regardless or whether it's one person or a hundred.
reply posted on 18-6-2009 @ 11:18 AM by TallWhites
Originally posted by king9072
In Canada, life is 25 years and up until recently, unless the case was extremely bad, you would get parole after 15 or so.
So here, if you kill someone, well, [SNIP] it, you may as well kill the entire class, or office, or bus or whatever cause your gonna do the same amount of time.
Gotta love logic.
profanity removed
From the Terms And Conditions Of Use
1b. Profanity: You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content. You will also not use common alternative spellings or net-speak alternative for profane words.
[edit on 17/6/09 by masqua]
Not true you can be declared a 'Dangerous Offender' in Canada and be jailed for the rest of your life
READ: Paul Bernardo, he is never getting out
reply posted on 18-6-2009 @ 05:19 PM by gravykraken
reply to post by Donnie Darko
i'm not trying to be hateful, but where is the line? when is enough, enough? are we just going to wait for it to evolve out of our system?
i know it sounds a bit draconian. offer a better way. we might be able to learn from pedos, thats why i defer to science/medicine first. again, we aren't discussing cultural and political differences, so no need to equate it with nationalism. i'm not for eugenics, but it seems that perhaps we should make exceptions in at least one area.
so we can learn from a better understanding... i ask... what exactly is there to understand? the origin of cause? the dinosaurs might come back before that happens. how many of us really want to understand why children get raped and murdered? while we wait to satisfy our curiosity children are being defiled.
edit: as stated in similar thread i agree that sex crimes against children should be included as capital offense (death sentence), no statute of limitations, on the basis that they are held to the same standard of 'proof beyond the shadow of doubt'.
[edit on 18/6/2009 by gravykraken]
i'm not trying to be hateful, but where is the line? when is enough, enough? are we just going to wait for it to evolve out of our system?
i know it sounds a bit draconian. offer a better way. we might be able to learn from pedos, thats why i defer to science/medicine first. again, we aren't discussing cultural and political differences, so no need to equate it with nationalism. i'm not for eugenics, but it seems that perhaps we should make exceptions in at least one area.
so we can learn from a better understanding... i ask... what exactly is there to understand? the origin of cause? the dinosaurs might come back before that happens. how many of us really want to understand why children get raped and murdered? while we wait to satisfy our curiosity children are being defiled.
edit: as stated in similar thread i agree that sex crimes against children should be included as capital offense (death sentence), no statute of limitations, on the basis that they are held to the same standard of 'proof beyond the shadow of doubt'.
[edit on 18/6/2009 by gravykraken]
reply posted on 18-6-2009 @ 05:27 PM by StevenDye
reply to post by gravykraken
And whilst we kill the people who do these things the children are STILL being defiled but we are no closer to understanding why, or finding possible ways to stop such behaviour.
And whilst we kill the people who do these things the children are STILL being defiled but we are no closer to understanding why, or finding possible ways to stop such behaviour.
reply posted on 18-6-2009 @ 06:08 PM by gravykraken
reply to post by StevenDye
well... that is the beauty and horror of killing isn't it? you do it enough and something becomes extinct.
thats the idea right? to make it stop.
you folks will have to forgive me. (or not.) i only have so much compassion. not enough to spare that i can be tolerant and understanding toward pedophiles.
genetics involved or aside, there really is no hope of a medical solution in the foreseeable future.
how many here are not coming forward as victims? or friends / family of victims? maybe there is a grounded reason for the 'hateful' sentiment flying around.
we seem to have enough humanity to put a wounded or sick animal out if it's misery. i see little difference.
well... that is the beauty and horror of killing isn't it? you do it enough and something becomes extinct.
thats the idea right? to make it stop.
you folks will have to forgive me. (or not.) i only have so much compassion. not enough to spare that i can be tolerant and understanding toward pedophiles.
genetics involved or aside, there really is no hope of a medical solution in the foreseeable future.
how many here are not coming forward as victims? or friends / family of victims? maybe there is a grounded reason for the 'hateful' sentiment flying around.
we seem to have enough humanity to put a wounded or sick animal out if it's misery. i see little difference.
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