911 How Could Al-Qaeda Have Known?

Originally posted by impressme
Thank you, he totally keeps ignoring my question of finding the alledge Press release that the military was going to be doing war games on 911.

All I had said was that you can find out about military exercises online (did you read that post and the Global Security link I supplied? Musta missed that one...) and that a terrorist group that's planning something can get an accurate idea of when and where military exercises are and plan an attack around them.

Are you picking up what I'm putting down yet???

reply to post by jerico65


Stop making excuse why you will not answer my questions.

Are you picking up what I'm putting down yet???

We are not debating me. Your snide remarks are noted and have nothing to do with the topic

Originally posted by impressme
Stop making excuse why you will not answer my questions.

What? You spew "supply sources" to anyone that posts on your precious threads. All I did was just add a tidbit of information, a little insight into what a terrorist organization might undertake. It's called "intelligence gathering". Usually you want to do something like that before an attack.

Originally posted by impressme
We are not debating me. Your snide remarks are noted and have nothing to do with the topic.

"'We' are not debating me?" Ooookkkkkk, just who am I talking to now, Sybil?

Originally posted by Jenna


I have several handguns in my home and learned how to operate them in case someone ever breaks in, but I don't expect it to happen.

I guess we should substitute expect to happen to could happen.

Average Americans can't imagine anything bad happening, like 911, because they live in la-la land but the military and those in intelligence know otherwise. And if you research you'd realize that "planes flying into buildings" was a possibility by the so called terrorist and people in the CIA and FBI knew this. Did you read any of those articles I posted?

Playing dumb, I thought, was a teenager thing but I guess you believe people with very real responsibilities are just as dumb as your average high school student. Of course people in the intelligence community knew about the possibility of planes going into buildings, how could they not???

After seeing these posts go nowhere, I think I'm done on this thread.

Originally posted by impressme
This article absolutely nothing at all to do with 911. Where are you?

*sigh*

Scroll down, or just hit ctrl+f and type in September 2001 and it will take you to the passage I quoted. I'm beginning to think you are being intentionally difficult.

Wow, look who has an attitude problem.

Yeah, I get that way when I have to practically draw pictures with a crayon.

Now you continue to place web sites of who said this, and who said that, and who is covering who ……. I ask you to post anything before 911 that shows a Press release announcing that the military was going to be doing war games in NYC and also it should state what military planes and what all the exercises were going to be.

Do I really need to go back and recap for you again? Really? I made a claim, in response you demanded I back it up, so I did. Like I said, you don't get to change the rules just because you don't like that I can back up things I claim.

Funny, that coming from you, you are doing a good job ignoring my question.

I've answered it, you just refuse to accept it.

reply to post by impressme


That quote isn't by me first of all. And second of all I found you the page where the NORAD exercise was announced prior to 9/11.


reply to post by jerico65

What next? Name of the aircrew, boot size, and the name of their dog?

Don't go giving them any ideas.

reply to post by SPreston


Yep, I'm aware of that. It doesn't change the fact that it is about a Russian military exercise that was occurring immediately before and up to 9/11. The very same exercise that caused NORAD to be off on a training exercise of their own.

_____________________

Originally posted by truthtothemasses
I guess we should substitute expect to happen to could happen.

Sure you could, but that wasn't what was asked, nor what was said at the time.

And if you research you'd realize that "planes flying into buildings" was a possibility by the so called terrorist and people in the CIA and FBI knew this. Did you read any of those articles I posted?

Sure it was a possibility, thus the reason they had training exercises with that as the scenario. That doesn't mean that they expected it to happen when it did. Like I said, I only a handgun because there's the possibility someone will break into my home, that doesn't mean I expect it to happen.

Playing dumb, I thought, was a teenager thing but I guess you believe people with very real responsibilities are just as dumb as your average high school student. Of course people in the intelligence community knew about the possibility of planes going into buildings, how could they not???

Name-calling, I thought, was a child thing but I guess I was wrong on that one. Hard as it may be for you to believe, people with very real responsibilities often aren't much smarter than the average high school graduate. Want evidence? Take a look at anything major congress has done over the last 20 years.

After seeing these posts go nowhere, I think I'm done on this thread.

That's what happens when people with preconceived notions refuse to listen to anything that doesn't fit their idea of correct.

[edit on 18-6-2009 by Jenna]

reply to post by Jenna

Get it now? The NORAD exercise was in response to Russia's training exercise and would continue until Russia was finished. When word of the attacks made it to Russia, they called off their training to prevent any misperceptions.

Now what else would you like to ignore?

Seems like you have chosen to omit these two little tidbits FROM THE "NORAD site."

The events of September 11, 2001 demonstrated NORAD’s continued relevance to North American security.

NORAD assets are positioned strategically throughout Canada and the U.S. and can respond to any air sovereignty threat in a matter of minutes.

www.norad.mil...

Continued relevance? It doesn't look like NORAD was anywhere around NYC on 911 does it? Even if you give them room for the first plane, then they certainly had more than a matter of minutes to respond to the second one. The fact is, people would have been up for treason in the case of even the first plane.

You have tried to derail this thread by going to NYC via Moscow. Bad idea.
Now, it's reality time again.

reply to post by jerico65


www.nti.org...

The plan was abruptly changed immediately after news of terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, DC on 11 September 2001 reached Moscow. u]To avoid possible complications and misperceptions, the Air Force terminated all "practical activities" planned for the ongoing maneuvers following a request from the United States. This included a termination of flights not only toward U.S. territory, but also "around the corner" toward Norway and Iceland. Launches of short-range ALCMs from five Tu-22M3 bombers (three belonging to the Naval Air Command and two from the Air Force) over Kamchatka against seaborne targets were still conducted, but only within Russian territorial waters. Also, both heavy and medium bombers practiced missile launches at an internal Russian test range near the Caspian sea.

This is the Russian Air Force Dr. Sokov speaks of mostly, NOT NORAD, NOT the USAF. No mention of what our war games consisted of in NYC before 911, what happened after. In case you missed it, the piece was written in 2004 and footnote relating to Sept 2001 is dated 9/11 or later.

I think if you could come up with enough money and lobby you know who(any member of congress) we would get our answer.


Eye of Eagle

Originally posted by Jenna

Originally posted by truthtothemasses
I guess we should substitute expect to happen to could happen.

Sure you could, but that wasn't what was asked, nor what was said at the time.

That's original. So I guess you just want to ignore the fact that they knew it was a possibility that they'd fly planes into buildings? You still refuse to respond to the articles about the knowledge of this beforehand.

Sure it was a possibility, thus the reason they had training exercises with that as the scenario. That doesn't mean that they expected it to happen when it did. Like I said, I only a handgun because there's the possibility someone will break into my home, that doesn't mean I expect it to happen.

You are not being very logical here. I don't expect to be mugged when I go out alone to an ATM late at night, but it COULD happen and I'm always knowledgable about that. If for some reason I actually did get mugged or robbed I would not say, "Oh Ma god, I can't believe I just got mugged, how could that possibly happen". That's what purely ignorant people say when they have no idea what's going on in their surroundings.

Do you mean to tell me that the CIA and the FBI are as ignorant as a dumb 16 year girl going to the ATM machine alone at 2am in the morning without considering the fact that she COULD get mugged???? And that if she was mugged turned around the next day and say, "I cannot believe I just got mugged!"

This, of course, is on a very micro level. But we're not talking about muggings, we are talking about national security here my dear.

Name-calling, I thought, was a child thing but I guess I was wrong on that one. Hard as it may be for you to believe, people with very real responsibilities often aren't much smarter than the average high school graduate. Want evidence? Take a look at anything major congress has done over the last 20 years.

I wasn't calling you dumb, I can see how you could interpreted that way though, my bad.

What I'm trying to tell you is that when you get older you become less naive. When you go out and actually experience the world of power you understand that there is desperation everywhere. The rich and powerful are sick and will do absolutely anything to stay on top.

FBI, CIA were tracking these boys for a long time. If I'm expected to believe that, OOPS, they just dropped the ball on this one, "sorry guys!, we'll get em' next time BS." Then please lord, get me out of this ignorant nation!!


[edit on 19-6-2009 by truthtothemasses]

Remember the topic of the actual OP...

Originally posted by impressme

If our global intelligence and national security is so great, how in the world did this little group of Arab terrorists know, in advance, that our military would be engaged in war games in the skies above NYC, and in these war games, one of the operations was to simulate planes crashing into skyscrapers?

The fact is, it would have taken either the terrorists infiltrating our military, our security and intel agencies, the FAA, NORAD, the office of the vice president and numerous other agencies, to pull off 911 or all the above named agencies had to have supplied Al-Qaeda with all this information. So, if you have to believe Al-Qaeda was responsible for 911, I’ll let you choose which of the above you want to go with.

NOPE! Not one pre-911 post to prove anything about the o called war game schedule in New York. In fact, there was only writing about the Russian war games. You can’t plan a small dinner party without a certain amount of detailed information so kids, don’t try to sell me some song and dance about these Bin Laden workers, as educated as they might have been, planning and carrying out 911 in less than a day. You don’t really think they were able to outsmart the STRONGEST, RICHEST, MOST TECHNICALLY ADVANCED, and by far, THE MOST INTELLIGENT MILITARY POWER IN THE WORLD, do you?

So far, nobody has been able prove anything contrary to what impressme said in the OP. Sorry Jenna, sorry jerico65, NORAD was not playing war games with the Russian Air Force in New York City! In fact, I never saw anything about any war games in New York, DC or Shanksville, PA! You all need to stop believing lies and misinformation. I used to believe the OS in the beginning but a little time and a lot of logic made it clear that the OS was physically impossible. I wasn’t alone in my confusion about answers I was getting regarding 911, looks like some other people were confused about the whole 911 thing too… please read on…

Posted 4/18/2004 10:22 PM Updated 4/19/2004 3:08 PM

NORAD, in a written statement, confirmed that such hijacking exercises occurred. It said the scenarios outlined were regional drills, not regularly scheduled continent-wide exercises

On April 8, the commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks heard testimony from national security adviser Condoleezza Rice that the White House didn't anticipate hijacked planes being used as weapons.

On April 12, a watchdog group, the Project on Government Oversight, released a copy of an e-mail written by a former NORAD official referring to the proposed exercise targeting the Pentagon. The e-mail said the simulation was not held because the Pentagon considered it "too unrealistic."

President Bush said at a news conference Tuesday, "Nobody in our government, at least, and I don't think the prior government, could envision flying airplanes into buildings on such a massive scale." .

www.usatoday.com...

The time has come for the OS believers to hear the wake-up call. How the Hell could Osama Bin Laden have known anything, even general information, let alone exact details necessary to pull off 911, about the training exercises including flying airliners into the both WTC towers and the Pentagon when the PRESIDENT OF THE UNTED STATES DID NOT!

Originally posted by Sanity


Continued relevance? It doesn't look like NORAD was anywhere around NYC on 911 does it? Even if you give them room for the first plane, then they certainly had more than a matter of minutes to respond to the second one. The fact is, people would have been up for treason in the case of even the first plane.

You act as if Flt 11 was solidly confirmed a hijack. It was suspected, but real time logistics and confusion made the event a possible accident.

Now, do you go shooting down every airliner in America if a plane crashes?

Would you admitt that there were hundreds of commercial airliners in the sky when flt 11 hit?

They certainly DIDN'T have more than a matter of minutes to respond to flt 175. When It TOO hit was when all became revealed. Not before.

Then you had about 30 minutes to find a needle in a haystack with all commercial flights in the air being re-routed for immediate grounding.

Scrambled, mixed-up flights all returning and being re-routed . And one low flyer without a transponder going directly toward an airport (flt 77). GOOD LUCK. (hindsight 20/20 and all that)

It didn't matter what NORAD was doing. The only plane they had a shot at disrupting was Flt 93.. ONLY because it was delayed on the tarmac before take-off.

reply to post by Jenna

You're trying to pretend that this is something they just did on a whim, and it's not. The Clinton administration was fully aware that there were attacks being planned and they did nothing.

My thread is not about Bill Clinton so stop moving the goal post.

Still ignoring facts huh?

No one in here is ignoring any facts, leave out the sarcasm.

I provided links that show that military exercises are announced before they are conducted, just as I claimed they do.

Where in your Russian link dose it say there was an announcement that war games where being held in NYC and Washington DC. What newspaper made this announcement or television show air this announcement?? Sence you are “clinging” to your article as proof that this was an announcement by NORAD before 911, explain this:

NORAD Maintains Northern Vigilance
Sept. 9, 2001

CHEYENNE MOUNTAIN AFS, Colo. – The North American Aerospace Defense Command shall deploy fighter aircraft as necessary to Forward Operating Locations (FOLS) in Alaska and Northern Canada to monitor a Russian air force exercise in the Russian arctic and North Pacific ocean.

“NORAD is the eyes and ears of North America and it is our mission to ensure that our air sovereignty is maintained,” said Lieutenant-General Ken Pennie, Deputy Commander-in-Chief of NORAD. “Although it is highly unlikely that Russian aircraft would purposely violate Canadian or American airspace, our mission of vigilance must be sustained.”

NORAD-allocated forces will remain in place until the end of the Russian exercise.

NORAD conducted operation Northern Denial from December 1 to 14, 2000 in response to a similar, but smaller scale, Russian deployment of long-range bombers at northern Russian air bases. NORAD-allocated forces were deployed to three FOLS, two in Alaska and one in Canada. More than 350 American and Canadian military men and women were in involved in the deployment.

www.norad.mil...

Where in this article does it states WAR GAME?

I also ask you to provide a link to the announcement of the war games on 911, before 911. And you fail to do so.

that there was an exercise that would continue til the Russians were done with theirs.

HELLO… Russia did not attack us and if you are implying that NORAD was doing war games over sea on 911 then you just PROVED that there WAS NO WAR GAMES IN NYC or our Washington DC. As the government claims they were.

According to NORAD, at the time of the South Tower Impact the two F-15s from Otis were still 71 miles away. Otis is 153 miles east-northeast of the WTC. That means the F-15s were flying at:
WTC to the Pentagon
By the time the two F-15s from Otis reached Manhattan, the only jetliner still flying with its IFF transponder off had just made a 180-degree turn over southern Ohio and had been headed for Washington D.C. for 12 minutes. It was still 34 minutes before the Pentagon was hit. Had the fighters been sent to protect the capital, they could have traveled the approximately 300 miles in:
300 miles/1875 mph = 9.6 minutes
They even could have made it to the capital in time to protect the Pentagon if they had continued to fly at only 500 mph

911research.wtc7.net...

Thanks you, for Proving there was no war games going on in NYC on 911 this is what my post is partly about. I have not found one announcement anywhere, where the government said they were going to be doing war games in NYC. They have been lying and Jenna proved that by providing some incite into what NORAD was really up to.

It was NORAD's job to prevent what happened, but they were off making sure the Russians didn't get any closer than they were supposed to.

Failures to Scramble
No plausible explanation has been provided for failing to scramble interceptors in a timely fashion from bases within easy range to protect the September 11th targets. Fighters that were dispatched were scrambled from distant bases. Early in the attack, when Flight 11 had turned directly south toward New York City, it was obvious that New York City and the World Trade Center, and Washington D.C. would be likely targets. Yet fighters were not scrambled from the bases near the targets. They were only scrambled from distant bases. Moreover there were no redundant or backup scrambles.
New York City
Flight 11 had been flying south toward New York City from about 8:30 AM. Yet no interceptors were scrambled from nearby Atlantic City, or La Guardia, or from Langley, Virginia. Numerous other bases were not ordered to scramble fighters.

911research.wtc7.net...
How did Bin Laden know that NORAD and the military would not be able intercept four commercial airliners for a whole hour and it is a fact that FAA was tracking these planes from the start even on radar? These planes were flying over highly restricted airspace including over our nuclear power plants. Why didnt the military respond they all knew there was four airplanes that didn’t belong in their war games on their radar blips these guys do not make mistake they are train very well.

9:28 a.m. September 11, 2001: NORAD Possibly Holding ‘Live-Fly’ Training Exercise
According to former counterterrorism “tsar” Richard Clarke, around this time the acting Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Myers speaks to him via video link (see 9:28 a.m. September 11, 2001). During their conversation, Myers mentions, “We are in the middle of Vigilant Warrior, a NORAD exercise.” [CLARKE, 2004, PP. 5] However, no other references have been found to this exercise, “Vigilant Warrior.” Considering that exercise terms are “normally an unclassified nickname,” [CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF, 4/23/1998 ] this is perhaps a little odd. Could Richard Clarke have mistakenly been referring to the Vigilant Guardian exercise (see (6:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001), which is taking place on 9/11? According to a later news report though, NORAD confirms that “it was running two mock drills on Sept. 11 at various radar sites and Command Centers in the United States and Canada,” one of these being Vigilant Guardian. [NEW JERSEY STAR-LEDGER, 12/5/2003] If this is correct then there must be another NORAD exercise on 9/11. If not “Vigilant Warrior,” a possibility is that the exercise referred to by Richard Clarke is in fact “Amalgam Warrior,” which is a NORAD-sponsored, large-scale, live-fly air defense and air intercept field training exercise. Amalgam Warrior usually involves two or more NORAD regions and is held twice yearly, in the spring for the West Coast and in the autumn for the East Coast. [US CONGRESS, N.D.; AIRMAN, 1996; ARKIN, 2005, PP. 254; GLOBALSECURITY (.ORG), 4/27/2005] Is it possible that in 2001 the East Coast Amalgam Warrior is being held earlier than usual (like Global Guardian (see 8:30 a.m. September 11, 2001)) and is taking place on 9/11? In support of this possibility is a 1997 Defense Department report that describes the Stratcom exercise Global Guardian, saying it “links with other exercise activities sponsored by the Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Unified Commands.” The exercises it links with are Crown Vigilance (an Air Combat Command exercise), Apollo Guardian (a US Space Command exercise), and—significantly—the NORAD exercises Vigilant Guardian and Amalgam Warrior.

www.historycommons.org...
Looks like NORAD cant keep their lies straight.

reply to post by Taxi-Driver


Are you for real???????? Shanksville never crashed, the 2 NYC planes were airborne for over an hour (yawn) and the Pentagon was a flyover. Don't try to screw with my brain. Educate yours instead.

Originally posted by Sanity
reply to post by Taxi-Driver

 

Are you for real???????? Shanksville never crashed, the 2 NYC planes were airborne for over an hour (yawn) and the Pentagon was a flyover. Don't try to screw with my brain. Educate yours instead.

By educate do you mean watch crudely crafted youtube videos and hokie fact-spun websites?

I would feel like I was being better educated by reading and repeatedly re-reading Nigerian spam-scams. Same stuff different format.

How many planes do you reckon are airborn for about an hour into their flights each day? Should they all be targets? Shot down if they veer off course?

Sanity? Irony!

Believe what you want... I really don't care.

The whole 9/11 schtick is going from sorta funny to woefully pathetic at breaklight speed.

reply to post by jerico65


I have had some time to review your post in a calmer mind frame. I have to admit I jumped the gun on you so please no hard feelings and please accept my apology if I have been too rude. I read your link below but I found the problem and I believe that’s what you were making a note on, meaning the military is not going to go in any detail about their war games.

www.globalsecurity.org...

reply to post by Taxi-Driver


OK let me put my Romper Room pretend magic hat on...
Hmmmm... OK now I smart like you!

I get it - your right! Why bother to shoot down planes that go way off course when you can let disposable 110 story tall 767 catchers do the work?

Yup, you believe your fantasy schtick and I'll stick to the truth. Too bad you, like so many, cannot deal with reality well.

Alright, I'm off to watch the Viagra commercial. Ah... here comes Bob!

reply to post by Taxi-Driver

Believe what you want... I really don't care.

So that’s why you spend all night defending your fairytale with opinions and rants.

How many planes do you reckon are airborn for about an hour into their flights each day? Should they all be targets? Shot down if they veer off course?

Do you know how many planes were in the air that day? Do you really think NORAD and FAA are that incompetent that they could not tell that four commercial airliners veer off cource? Why don’t you ask FAA why they destroyed some of their tapes of that morning on 911? Why don’t you ask FAA why they are not aloud to talk about what happened that day why don’t you ask why the FBI why they put FAA under a gag order? And don’t ask me for the sources for that either because I was a heavy reader on ATS for years before I joined and this topic as been exhausted.

The whole 9/11 schtick is going from sorta funny to woefully pathetic at breaklight speed.

Then why do you waste your precious time in here defending a lie?

Originally posted by Sanity
Seems like you have chosen to omit these two little tidbits FROM THE "NORAD site."

...

Continued relevance? It doesn't look like NORAD was anywhere around NYC on 911 does it? Even if you give them room for the first plane, then they certainly had more than a matter of minutes to respond to the second one. The fact is, people would have been up for treason in the case of even the first plane.

Had you read my posts you would have seen where I said that it was their responsibility and that they failed. Good to know that you're too busy pointing fingers to read my posts though.

This is the Russian Air Force Dr. Sokov speaks of mostly, NOT NORAD, NOT the USAF. No mention of what our war games consisted of in NYC before 911, what happened after. In case you missed it, the piece was written in 2004 and footnote relating to Sept 2001 is dated 9/11 or later.

Case in point. You even quoted what I said after the section I quoted from the article, and you're still ignoring what I posted. Yes it's from 2004, yes it's about the Russian Air Force, that was the point in my quoting from it. That is what NORAD's exercise was in response to. Please actually read my posts if you're going to comment on them or respond to them. Repeating myself is getting tedious.

______________________

Originally posted by truthtothemasses
That's original. So I guess you just want to ignore the fact that they knew it was a possibility that they'd fly planes into buildings? You still refuse to respond to the articles about the knowledge of this beforehand.

Not once has anyone even so much as hinted that they wanted me to respond to anything like that. Mostly I suppose because it had nothing to do with my point that I'm still having to explain two days and 20 posts later since no one seems to be reading what I'm typing.

And I have repeatedly acknowledged that they knew it was possible, otherwise they wouldn't have had training exercises about it. That you missed where I've said it just further proves that none of you flooding me with responses is bothering to read, you're all just posting to disagree with me.

You are not being very logical here. I don't expect to be mugged when I go out alone to an ATM late at night, but it COULD happen and I'm always knowledgable about that.

Oh so if you get mugged then you're going to be expecting it right? Wouldn't that beg the question, why go to the ATM at night if you are expecting to be mugged?

Do you mean to tell me that the CIA and the FBI are as ignorant as a dumb 16 year girl going to the ATM machine alone at 2am in the morning without considering the fact that she COULD get mugged???? And that if she was mugged turned around the next day and say, "I cannot believe I just got mugged!"

Do you mean to tell me that you didn't read where I said:

Sure it was a possibility, thus the reason they had training exercises with that as the scenario. That doesn't mean that they expected it to happen when it did.

This comes from the very last post of mine you responded to, hell you even quoted it yourself but you don't seem to have read it.

FBI, CIA were tracking these boys for a long time. If I'm expected to believe that, OOPS, they just dropped the ball on this one, "sorry guys!, we'll get em' next time BS." Then please lord, get me out of this ignorant nation!!

Clinton knew about the threat of an attack and did nothing. Generally speaking, people throw a fit if the CIA or FBI do something on their own without being told to do so, and even then people still throw a fit. They didn't do what they should have and innocent people died.