If Japan had never attacked Pearl Harbour, page 1
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reply posted on 16-6-2009 @ 06:29 PM by octotom
reply to post by 04326



Could Hîtler's Germany have conquered Europe? If so, what would European society be like today? If so, would the National Socialists have been overthrown later in a different way? Perhaps overthrown by a communist or anarchist revolution?


Yes, I believe that Hitler very well could have conquered Europe [assuming that he hadn't of gone into Russia in the winter]. Essentially, the only thing preventing him from doing so were those resilient British people not giving up their island. But, eventually, since Germany was attacking with air raids, Britian would've eventually fallen.

Had that happened, one major difference would be that everyone would speak German. Outside of that, I would think that Hitler would've banned all different cultural activities other than those of Germany/Austria. This is because he seemingly wanted a homogenious society.

There probably would've been attempts to overthrow the Nazi regime. I doubt that it would've been by anarchists or communists. It probably would have come about by freedom loving people that survived the War.

reply to post by muzzleflash



perhaps even taken over the world


I saw once on a documentary about World War II and in it, it was stated that Hitler envisioned the world containing three countries. Essentially, Germany controlling most, Japan in the Orient, and the US in the West. They went on to say that Hitler actually had plans to overthrow the emperor of Japan and grab that as his own! But he had no such plan for the United States. He, as well as the Japanese emperor, wanted to leave the US alone. It seems that they understood that there was, and even still is, something special, something different, about the United States compared to the rest of the world. They each seemed to know that if the US joined the effort in a more meaningful way, as we were giving supplies and such, it was done for. History shows to that that is essentially true as a well.

I said all that to just say, that I don't think Hitler could've conquered the whole world.



Something that I never understood is why Japan and Germany allied. I must've missed that in history class. Perhaps someone could shed some light on this?



reply posted on 16-6-2009 @ 09:11 PM by Brother Stormhammer
Just assuming that the Japanese don't bomb Pearl Harbor isn't really enough to postulate an alternate history from. You have to decide what they do instead of the historical attack. If they divert the Navy into supporting the already-existing attacks into the Chinese mainland, it's not hard to see Japan's military strength vanishing into a quagmire of epic proportions, leaving the U.S. to expand influence in the Pacific. If they use the Navy to attack into Indochina and the Indian Ocean, they can secure badly needed resources, but still run the risk of war with the United States, and face the certainty of a war with Great Britain. In my opinion, geopolitics will force some form of conflict between Japan and the U.S., and the longer the Japanese postpone it, the more one-sided it gets.

As for impact on the European theater, Germany can't do much more than take Continental Europe. England isn't in danger of a military defeat (note that a morale defeat is an entirely different story. The Luftwaffe doesn't have the throw weight or the range to even conduct heavy bombing raids over more than half of England, so the odds of forcing a settlement by air power alone are fairly long. The Royal Navy owns the English Channel, and will for the foreseeable future, so Operation Sealion isn't even a remote possibility (not that it ever was, due to a lack of sealift capability). The European theater will (most likely) turn into an unholy mess, with Germany bogged down in Russia (and haunted by the laughter of Napolean's ghost) on the east, blocked by the English Channel in the west, and wondering what in the name of Thor, Wotan, and Hel to do with all of that sand in the south.


reply posted on 16-6-2009 @ 10:45 PM by Blackmarketeer
Made a mistake, I meant to say "third wave", as the Japanese did launch 2 waves.

If the third wave (never executed) had launched, the bulk of the fleet would have been destroyed, but more importantly the seventh fleet would almost certainly have been returned stateside, delaying the war by as much as a year. As you pointed out, with the loss of the shipyards the fleet would have been seriously lacking in a forward repair facility. Since those were spared, the fleet was able to restore operations fairly quickly at Pearl.

en.wikipedia.org...

Now, let's say the Japanese did not attack, how long could they have postponed the onset of war - months? A year? My guess is not much more than a few months.

Their best option would have been to utterly destroy Pearl (launching all waves) instead of "conserving forces".

But what affect on the country did Pearl Harbor have? I'm sure it was every bit as energizing as 9/11 was to the modern generation. It removed any doubt as to the country's commitment to the war, in the Pacific or the European theater.

[edit on 16-6-2009 by Blackmarketeer]


reply posted on 16-6-2009 @ 11:40 PM by Marshall Ormus
Originally posted by octotom
reply to
post by 04326


Something that I never understood is why Japan and Germany allied. I must've missed that in history class. Perhaps someone could shed some light on this?


Probably mostly to do with Strategic placement and politics. In otherwords by helping to empower the Japanese the European axis members drew attention and enemy resources away from themselves. Having the Japanese join up would mean that the Russians would send some of their stuff to guard the east so there would be less in the west for the Germans to deal with, it would also make it less likely that the Koreans or the Chinese would help out in the west.

It also meant that the British Empire couldn't rely on as many Australian or New Zealanders to help in Europe as most would have to stay in the Pacific to help fight the Japanese. It also meant that some of the US's resources and focus was else where.

Or in short, The enemy of my enemies is my decoy. It would also mean that their ally would be loosing soldiers who could fight back when and if the European axis got to a point where they then began fighting between themselves (hey it happened with the "allies/axis's enemies" sure bet it would happen within the axis if things had gone their way).

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