They mapped the stars and the moon... and we call them cavemen?

Prehistoric Astronomy-over 15000 years old

Sunday night I watched a documentary Prehistoric Astronomers, from France.
here is a presentation of the doc. with heaps of photos and text.
prehistoric astronomers
It made me think of how we have insulted our ancestors repeatedly by assuming their paintings were nothing more than superstitious offerings to their hunting.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/56a10bb2fe43.jpg[/atsimg]

The documentary followed the work of a french ethno astronomer, Chantel Jegues-Wolkiewiez,
who has been studying prehistoric cave paintings and the caves and has found some interesting links between the caves locations and orientations and the artwork within with constellations and the movement of sun in the sky over the seasons.

Some of her findings

-She found that most prehistoric cave painting sites in southwestern france ( she studied around 130), most, were illuminated inside during either sunrise or sunset at equinoxes or solstices. A coincidence?

-A carved bone dated over 15000 years old was actually a lunar calendar.

-She was given access to the famous Lascaux Cave in the Dordogne region of France. She found the cave was illuminated at the summer solstice, with the Great Hall of the Bulls on the ceiling being in the lime light for around 15mins.

-whats more she found the paintings of animals on the ceiling in the Great Hall of the Bulls could be matched with zodiacal constellations , in the right sequence, of the night sky that was slightly different 17000 years ago.

She has had a hard time getting her theories accepted. She is crossing over different scientific fields, and its hard for her to get her colleagues to connect the dots.
The sad thing is, the cave was closed to everybody before she could investigate any further.

Why do we not accept that stone age man/woman couldn't work out the patterns in the sky. After all, there were no other distractions and they had plenty of time to (tens of thousands of years) to work it out.

It feels like we ( i mean we as a collective of" civilization") can't accept that "pre-civilization", or hunter gatherers were extremely aware of their surroundings including that of the greater universe.

anyway, have a look at the links and tell us what you think.

documentary website
www.spacetoday.org...l

historyday.crf-usa.org...

en.wikipedia.org... ( wiki says winter solstice sun illuminating??!!)

[edit on 15-6-2009 by 2theC]
i keep seeing spelling mistakes!!

[edit on 15-6-2009 by 2theC]

I KNOW!!!!!!!!! they were way more sophisticated that us....we are more like that show idiocracy compared to them!

reply to post by mellisamouse


I just the imagine all that time they had to ponder the stars, to join the dots, to make up stories about the connections they made, to notice the planet and the skys above and to make sense that MADE sense...

its like we have to find out what they knew before we could ever go forward.

Well, they did live in caves. If you are referring to the connotation that they were awful-looking and smelly (enough to make a giraffe puke Indian food into a the used diaper of a baby skunk), then you are correct. Smart, ugly, and smelly is possible. Interesting thread. I will change my thinking. Ugly and smelly people can be smart too.

reply to post by pluckynoonez


well, yes in a way. we use the term in a derogatory sense.
But hey how do we know how they smelt?? Or what they looked like either.
They could have been sweet smelling, intelligent, sexy, skin wearing retro sexuals!
We can maybe start to see them from the inside out, by looking at their outside in.

[edit on 15-6-2009 by 2theC]

Originally posted by pluckynoonez
Ugly and smelly people can be smart too.

Thankyou, you've made my day!

Interesting thread, some nice links, a bit of information to work through.

"It's so easy a caveman can do it!"

Sorry couldn't resist. But I do agree with you, I have always looked past the cavemen stereo type because I was never convinced that for millions of years man just wandered the earth and was too stupid to do anything. The real missing link is actually the gap in time that needs to be explained. But invasions happen, wars happen, records get destroyed, dust settles, natural disasters, it's just hard to tell. This goes along with assuming the native americans were "savages" because they were thought to be stupid, and inhuman, or like cavemen. I do believe that man existed similar to how the Native Americans had lived, but obviously it was like this all over the world.

Our history would make us believe that man was just a nomadic hunter gatherer that just slept wherever he stopped. I'm sure for some it was like that, but not all. What happens to a tribe anywhere in the world untouched by modern civilization that has wisdom of the stars, nature and everything else get's "educated" by modern civlization? They get erased. I'm sure it still happens in this day in age, but I can only imagine the damage done by religious missionaries in the past that found such people, and if they didn't convert to their ways they were wiped out, or were "educated" but they labeled their past as "cavemen" or dumb savages.

[edit on 16-6-2009 by Byrd]

reply to post by Darth Lumina


and what did they know that we will never know they knew, because we only have some paintings and artifacts.
what they past down verbally in song and dance and stories and jokes and laws and everything else we will never know will never be known.
Or do we hold inside us somewhere, waiting to be unlocked?

These folks maybe "knew" this. Or they were exposed to the knowledge. Were they genius enough to figure it out on their own? Maybe. Maybe not. Were they intelligent enough to put it all down in rock paintings and rock sculptures. Perhaps. I .ike to imagine that the ancient peoples knew some sh*t we don't know now.

Oh, well, it all goes along with my belief that other beings have taken us along a path of understanding, based on their assement of how we will nll react AND change, based on our development as humans.

Nuff said. We have not developed enough to be brought into the "fold"

Ignore my misspellings. That was caused by the aliens.

[edit on 16-6-2009 by kyred]

Originally posted by 2theC


It feels like we ( i mean we as a collective of" civilization") can't accept that "pre-civilizatio", or hunter gatherers were extremely aware of their surroundings including that of the greater universe.

[edit on 15-6-2009 by 2theC]

I have never thought that people still thought they were "slow".
At least not me. There were huge steps taken during that period in term of cultural and social evolution.

Great find, its obvious this is the case considering the religion we were left over with was "Sun Worship".

Holy Bible = Helios/Sun Bible

Here is a great website that breaks down Jesus's yearlong ministry.
-----------------
members.cox.net...
-----------------

Aquarius = The Jesus story always begins with Jesus visiting John the Baptist, who baptizes with water. (John is put in prison .ie. below the skyline when Pisces comes next)

Pisces = The 2 Fisherman (Simon & Andrew)

Aries = Ram/Lamb

Taurus = Jesus Walks on water as he goes across the milky way, going through the end of Taurus and into Gemini

Gemini = Jesus Heals 2 demon possessed brothers; Castor & Pollux (2 stars of Gemini)

Cancer = Now its summer and we have the "Crab/Cancer" walking backwards, indicating the sun's longest days now becoming shorter (walking back down the sky towards winter)

"Around this point in the Jesus story an interesting thing happens — John the Baptist reappears and is beheaded. According to the Bible, “John the Baptist has been raised from the dead,” (Mark 6:14), or “This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead!” (Matthew 14:2). Recall at the beginning of the allegory how Aquarius moved below the western horizon at sunset as the year went from January to February and the Sun traveled from Aquarius to Pisces. Each Zodiac constellation in turn goes below the horizon at sunset as each month passes. After six months the constellation of Aquarius begins to rise on the eastern horizon at sunset, and it appears that the head of Aquarius is cut off by the horizon. This is John the Baptist rising from the dead, the dead being those who are below the earth. This is the beheading of John the Baptist by King Herod, a personification of darkness, which reigns supreme at night "

Virgo =Kingdom of Heaven or Harvest Time (House of Bread/Bethlehem). Its interesting that farming was called "Husbandry", the farmers were wed to the "Virgin of Harvest" who is also Jesus's Virgin Mother.

Libra = Scales... They now have to sell the harvest requiring markets and Scales. Once the selling of the harvest is done Jesus throws the money changers out (nothing left to sell, wait for next year).

"
As we enter the season of Autumn the leaves fall from the trees and the trees appear to wither. It is at this point in the story that Jesus is said to curse the fig tree and make it wither, a story which makes no sense if Jesus were a real person, but it makes perfect sense when understood as an allegory. It is simply Autumn, and Jesus, the Sun, who makes the seasons pass, causes the leaves to fall from the trees
"

Scorpio = Judas... Judas the scorpion stings the sun/Jesus with a kiss causing a slow death (winter is coming). 30 pieces of silver, representing the 30 days of the month. The month being one cycle of the phases of the moon. The moon, a piece of silver in the sky.

Now Jesus has been handed over to Herod (The night). The same night that has been chasing him since his birth.


Sagittarius = Pontius Pilate... Pontius Pilate translates to "The Sea armed with a spear". Sagittarius is a sea of stars armed with a bow and arrow. The spear or bow represents the harvest being done and it now being hunting time.


Jesus is crucified and placed in a cave. It is the end of the story. A sad ending. But have faith. Jesus, the Sun, will arise again — a new year will begin. Three days after Jesus is placed in the cave he will arise again. This is the prophecy.

On Christmas day, December 25, we celebrate the birth of Jesus. December 22 was the Winter Solstice, the shortest day of the year, when the Sun was at its lowest. Three days later, on December 25, the sun rises 1/10 of it's width farther north — just barely detectable by carefully observing the shadows cast at sunrise. Our savior, the Sun, has been reborn, to begin the cycle of the year and the cycle of life again.

A cycle we have all seen. Beautiful

[edit on 16-6-2009 by SolarDeity]

Saw the same documentry on Sunday on SBS & I found it extremely interesting.

Reasonable amount of evidence to support the theory, but personally I found it just a little inconclusive from what other scientists from the fields of astronomy & arceology were saying in relation to these different studies clashing, (Of course they could be just protecing their own bacon though).

All in all if her theory turns out to be true it is an amazing discovery about man from 15,000 years ago.

I have to say I give her full credit for her efforts, because she was very passionate about her work & definately has worked very hard to solve this mystery.

Despite feeling it was just a little inconclusive, i would have to admit it is one of the more well thought out, & plausible explainations I have ever heard.

To Chantel Jegues-Wolkiewiez, great work & I hope you can pull this one through.

[edit on 16-6-2009 by acrux]

[edit on 16-6-2009 by acrux]

reply to post by 2theC


Good post S&F

What bothers me about today's research is that they "assume" that all the structures/ruins/artifacts are related to worship or religion in some way.
Personally I think there is a conspiracy to convince people that religion has always played a part in our past, which to me is complete BS.

Makes me think of a saying I used to hear alot as a kid, you will never be able to look to the furure till you understand the past.

There is so much of the past we either do not understand or just plain misunterpret. It is good to see this type of investigation going to shed more light on the past.

S&F!

[edit on 6/16/2009 by AlienCarnage]

to be honest alot of the earth's history seems like a lie really - we're apparently advancing and are more advanced but yet everyone is sitting round watching tv, going to work, consuming crap ... how can we really be more advanced. We should be able to walk around nature of pick out everything like walking down a high street and recognising the difference between a bank and a sweet shop but we don't, infact i imagine there arent many people you know who could tell a birch tree from beech tree. With our understanding of the past, these people would have to be alot more clever than we are, they didnt have the police to call if they were in trouble or the insurance company to help them because there legs are broken they had to do things for themselves and learn.

You can see why they knew the stars because thats all they had at night, that was there television of sorts, the artists of the days, engineers generally they just put all there efforts into what they were doing unlike us because we have so much to do and everything is sped up as if its on some sort of ellicit drug.
And what for exactly? what are we achieving by working, some money from the people your going to have to give it back to anyway because money is useless unless you use it so you have to continuously gain it and give it back or it won't work and then when you do buy something its only an object it will last forever in most cases. Sure its a good back up for the fact we don't know anything especially about being able to live without society i mean what happens if it all went away, yes thats right we'd probably all die and guess what people from 3000 thousand years ago ...wouldn't. I think generally one of the main problems is that nobody blames themselves anymore so they have nothing to launch them into a different way of living because you just blame someone or something else so a little of the anger is vented out and then you continue on with what you were doing before. There's a famous quote from an actual intelligent human that goes something like "to repeat the same thing over and over and expect a different result is insanity" and thats exactly what we all do.

[edit on 16-6-2009 by steven barnes]

reply to post by 2theC


Great find.

I know...we assume so much about the past, because of our own ignorance. We see paintings on caves, and we assumed they lived in caves. (Maybe their houses didn't survive the last 15-17,000 years.)

We see paintings on caves and assume that they didn't draw on anything else. (Well, maybe they also had fine canvases, but they were destroyed in the last 17,000 years.)

We see drawings of animals and we assume they were devoted to primitive spirits.

We assume so much!!

I once took two weeks of an archeology class in college before I changed majors (I never should have changed majors) and it was funny...on the first day, our professor asked us to take out a penny and look at it, and ask our selves what a future archeologist would think about it if they came across that penny and had never encountered money before....

S&F

Thank you, that sort of old preconception about paleolithic/neolithic man being nothing more then a barely functional brute has finally begun to be washed away by evidence such as what you present. It's a wonderful thing that people are finally able to start appreciating the achievements of their distant forerunners.

And poloticians talk about civiilized nations. I wonder where they are? Past or present.

I think it would be silly to assume that they all lived in caves, there are only so many caves to go around. Think about the fighting that would have gone on if they all lived in caves.

I am sure hunting and gathering was a big part of their lives but we have to remember that they were capable of learning or else man kind would not have developed into what it is today. I think one thing that is for sure is that those would have been interesting times to live in.