Proof of the paranormal... done! What next?, page 1

I just thought I'd pop this statistical study of evidence for the paranormal up for people to have a look at. Based on two decades of US government-funded research, the conclusion is pretty unambiguous:

Using the standards applied to any other area of science, it is concluded that psychic functioning has been well established. The statistical results of the studies examined are far beyond what is expected by chance. Arguments that these results could be due to methodological flaws in the experiments are soundly refuted. Effects of similar magnitude to those found in government-sponsored research at SRI and SAIC have been replicated at a number of laboratories across the world. Such consistency cannot be readily explained by claims of flaws or fraud.

Any thoughts?

reply to post by Michael Ian Black

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Oh dear, I've overestimated the level at ATS again. I apologise and withdraw.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

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Gosh, you seem to know more about psychic abilities than the people at SRI who've been studying it scientifically for two decades and more.

And you seem able to rubbish a statistical analysis of the results without actually offering any evidence to show problems with the analysis methods.

Good effort there. [/sarcasm]

reply to post by rich23

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In Liverpool John Moores University you can actually do a degree in parapsychology. There they test the claims of psychics and mediums constantly without any firm positive results. I say again for the hard of understanding, psychic abilities are real but not controllable. They are as illusive as capturing ones own shadow.
Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY has proven the existence of paranormal abilities. Even the occasional positive result is up for question and interpretation. If you want to go through your life believing in this kind of stuff go ahead and be my guest but don't go and get your knickers in a twist when we, those who require proof, ask for hard evidence.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by rich23

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In Liverpool John Moores University you can actually do a degree in parapsychology. There they test the claims of psychics and mediums constantly without any firm positive results.

That seems to be only a small part of their work, judging bytheir website... rather, they seem mostly to be investigating the psychic powers of ordinary people.

Rupert Sheldrake has done considerable work in this area, and also has hugely statistically significant results. His data's been lying around for a while, as, evidently, have the SRI reports. Btw, if I had to choose in credibility between SRI and Liverpool John Moore, I'd go with SRI.

I say again for the hard of understanding, psychic abilities are real but not controllable.

You can say all you like but my personal experience is that you are wrong, and the science, thank goodness, is starting to back me up on this. why else would Liverpool John Moore University be working on a VR game to test and train precognition? It's on the website.

I've personally met people who manifested what one might call psychic abilities: a good t'ai chi teacher will teach by transmission, meaning things start happening inside your body because of what he's doing. I've experienced this for myself and I'm certain it's something real that this guy (and others of his ilk) can turn on and off.

They are as illusive as capturing ones own shadow.

This may be your experience. Is nobody else's experience valid?

Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY has proven the existence of paranormal abilities.

Not according to a lead statistician for Stanford Research Institute. According to her, they've been doing it quietly for some time now. Beat your chest all you want, but the evidence is there. Sheldrake, SRI, probably even Liverpool (but I haven't dug far enough to get any results from them).

Whether people accept the evidence is something else, and people do try to dismiss it, but never very successfully, and as I have pointed out in other threads, there is a definite tendency on the part of the skeptics to fudge evidence, move goalposts, and generally muddy the waters.

Even the occasional positive result is up for question and interpretation.

Which is why SRI had their statistician look at two decades and more of results.

If you want to go through your life believing in this kind of stuff go ahead and be my guest but don't go and get your knickers in a twist when we, those who require proof, ask for hard evidence.

If you want to bury your head in the sand and persist in your beliefs in the face of a report which I've bothered to post but you've clearly not bothered to read, don't get your knickers in a twist when I point out that there's plenty of evidence but your prejudices get in the way.

It's interesting that although you seem to think that parapsychological phenomena are real, you refuse evidence to that effect. Weird.

[edit on 20-6-2009 by rich23]

reply to post by rich23

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I hear what you say but with the greatest of respect I think you're wrong. I know several students who have done psychology degrees and have taken parapsychology as side line, and they all, to a person, say that not one, not one! single solitary person has impressed their teachers. Like I said, it's sporadic and from what I'v e been told some of the data backs this up. People find in precognition tests that they get one amazing hit and then fail miserably once they have to replicate it in a lab. It seems to me that people do have paranormal experiences in their own home when they are not under pressure, but put them in a lab under strictly controlled conditions and the ability simply fades away.
lets be honest about this my friend. The day someone correctly reads minds, moves objects with the power of their minds or contacts the dead, the front page of evey newspaper will carry the story and that person will become bigger than. . . bigger than Uri Geller.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
It seems to me that people do have paranormal experiences in their own home when they are not under pressure, but put them in a lab under strictly controlled conditions and the ability simply fades away.

As I said, I have personal experience of people who can physically affect the inside of your body from 20 feet away. They can do this at will: it's part and parcel of how they teach. As for reading minds, I think from my own personal experience that the top Taoist teachers I know can communicate with each other telepathically, but I'm not certain.

As for PK, I've seen videos of chi gung adepts moving small hanging objects with their minds. They could be faked, they could be real, but from my personal experience of what I know to be possible I can't rule them out.

There are ways of training to acquire paranormal abilities. You may not believe it, but it is nonetheless true.

This, however, is off the point. Has SRI done something your friends haven't? Perhaps by having some of the very best and brightest people working there (including, fyi, Hal Puthoff and Andriya Puharich who worked with Uri Geller in the latter's early days) and keeping careful records.

And Rupert Sheldrake demonstrates that ESP is an everyday occurrence. He has a huge collection of data showing abvove-chance results in various tests he's done. Have a look at this lecture:

video.google.co.uk...

Part of the problem with John Moore is that they might be asking the wrong questions.

lets be honest about this my friend. The day someone correctly reads minds, moves objects with the power of their minds or contacts the dead, the front page of evey newspaper will carry the story and that person will become bigger than. . . bigger than Uri Geller.

No. What happens is that governments (particularly the US and Russia) step in and it all goes very, very quiet. The CIA or NSA (I forget which) ran a remote viewing programme for many years, as has been well documented. They shut it down once Congress started to take an interest. I'd say it was a reasonable assumption that it's been continued under another name sonewhere else, particularly as some of the participants seemed extremely talented.

Here's a documentary about remote viewintg:
video.google.com...

You haven't attacked the statistical evidence in the report I notice. Your acquaintances at John Moore have told you something and you consider their experiences to be definitive. I would suggest that LJM may not have the cachet of SRI for many good reasons, mostly to do with a level of investment. I'd also submit that it's illogical to refuse to believe something's possible just because you can't do it.

[edit on 21-6-2009 by rich23]

[edit on 21-6-2009 by rich23]

reply to post by rich23

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I've seen videos of dinosaurs but it doesn't make them real!Saying you've seen videos of such and such doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Its not proof of anything.
I used to test people who claimed to be psychic or have paranormal abilities for a research group here in Liverpool. The group was affiliated with JMU and many of their parapsychology students were members of our group. What I found was that if these so-called psychics were surrounded by believers then some tiny instances of stranginess did happen but nothing major. However, their audience would be amazed. Then the same person would take the same tests in front parapsychologists such as Matthew Smith and keiron O'Keefe of Most Haunted fame, and their abilities simply melted away. What does this prove? It proves that research results can be swayed one way or the other depending on whether those in control and who are conducting the experiment are believers or sceptics.
This is why the SPR and SCICOP can both accurately relate test results and yet come to opposite conflicting conclusions..

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