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Flight 3407 | What happend?

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posted on Feb, 10 2010 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by GBP/JPY
 



...all those witnesses agreed...


Ahhh....ermmm. Those witnesses who know nothing about airplanes?

That's the problem with so-called 'witnesses'....when they are not familiar with the technical subject they are 'witnessing' to.

Let's say you go to a professional magic show --- will you "witness" to the 'fact' that the performer 'disappeared' an elephant right before your eyes??

Would it be far to say that you, and nine or more of your friends and acquaintances would NOT have varying "witness" accounts of the events, as they remembered it, with disagreements too?

I read those accounts, and laughed, mostly, at how people can be fooled by what they think they 'hear' or 'see'. Especially the layperson.




posted on Feb, 10 2010 @ 05:41 PM
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reply to post by starviego
 





The names of two Israelis appeared on the passenger list....


usual anti semitic garbage .....

So Israeli citizens are not allowed to fly on American aircraft? I did not
remember the Nuremberg laws being enacted here...




The Foreign Ministry told Ynet that a representative from the Israeli Consulate in New York was on his way to the crash site in order to validate the information.


Consulate personnel were there to assist rescue personnel in identification
and with the families in returning the remains

US State department officials do the same overseas for Americans killed
on foreigh soil




www.zaka.us...
A team of six ZAKA volunteers, members of the ZAKA International Rescue Unit and headed by Mati Goldstein, left Israel this evening for Buffalo, New York. The volunteers will assist the local emergency personnel and volunteers and will work in cooperation with Rabbi Jack Meir of Misaskim USA, in the recovery and identification of the victims...


Zaka are teams of Orthodox jews to recover victims remains to see that
are handled in accordance with Jewish traditions

en.wikipedia.org...

That is your evidence? Fact the Israeli were traveling on the plane and that Israeli officials were there to oversee recovery of remains ?



posted on Feb, 11 2010 @ 01:00 AM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker

...all those witnesses agreed...


Ahhh....ermmm. Those witnesses who know nothing about airplanes?

So do you need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing?




Originally posted by thedman
Consulate personnel were there to assist rescue personnel in identification
and with the families in returning the remains

Assist with identification? What could they possibly do that the coroner can't do himself? Aid the families in returning the remains? That's very sweet, but he can do that from his desk in NYC. Seriously, isn't there more important business to attend to?


Zaka are teams of Orthodox jews to recover victims remains to see that
are handled in accordance with Jewish traditions
I am sure that Jews have been dying in air accidents for a long time, but I have only heard about this 'Zaka' group in the last decade or so. Why now? And all the bodies had already been removed from the site by the time Zaka got there. What is the point of combing the crash site for tiny scraps of tissue? They are going to miss a lot anyway. And how are they going to identify which bit of charred flesh is Jewish? By having dozens of tissue samples genetically analyzed? The weird thing is investigators even let them near the site. I am sure the NYSB didn't want to let them them sift through the crash site right in the beginning of their investigation, when much of the wreckage had not been moved. Why are they given special access?



That is your evidence? Fact... that Israeli officials were there to oversee recovery of remains ?

I never said they were there as conspirators. But their presence is definitely suspicious.


Anyway it looks like the Indians too were involved somehow--

This Indian website had this curious note early on:
www.thaindian.com...
--At least three Indians are feared to have been killed in an airline crash late on Thursday outside Buffalo, New York, early reports said.

There were no Indian-sounding names among the 48 made public in the first week, when the quote above was written. The names of the last two were not released until several weeks had past. So is it just coincidence that one of these was an Indian national and graduate student named Dipinder Sidhu?

The possibility of other passengers not on the manifest may have been the reason authorities were initially hesitant to keep a victim count going as the recovery proceeded:

edition.cnn.com...
Authorities had recovered 15 bodies as of Saturday night, but Billittier announced Sunday that numbers of recovered bodies will no longer be released "out of respect for the families."

forum.prisonplanet.com...
"Okay, 15 bodies were recovered. They won't say how many more are recovered. Anyone else suddenly wondering how many people were REALLY on that plane?"


/



posted on Feb, 14 2010 @ 05:38 PM
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Following up on the Indian-named passenger, Dipinder Sidhu, whose name was not released until weeks after almost all the other names had long been released--


www.buffalonews.com...
...Nirmal Sidhu, who is a Sikh, is troubled that none of her son's remains were recovered from the crash site.

This is not true of the other 49 victims. Now I have to wonder if this person was ever on that airplane.



posted on Feb, 14 2010 @ 06:38 PM
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Nice to see the usual vultures with their scripted insignificant gibberish trying to discredit this one. If you listen to these charlatans, everything is an accident and nothing is a conspiracy.


1. Mrs. Eckert was one of few, if any, plaintiffs who decided not to accept the Government's settlement package for deceased 9/11 family members. Imagine how much dirt would have come out in court cases if most individuals were like her and did not take the payoff?

"Beverly Eckert sued rather than take the victim compensation package of $1.8 million offered to those who lost family members in the September attack. Eckert also felt that the reason the compensation fund was set up was to stop investigations rather than out of sympathy and concern."

www.associatedcontent.com...

2. The fact Eckert had met with Obama about a week previously is a bit interesting. Why the details regarding her meeting have never been released is even more interesting. Is the Government protecting a deceased person's privacy, something it never does for those who are living?

3. This plane was built by Bombardier in Canada and flies in much colder temperatures than the 28F which was recorded in Buffalo on the date of loss. This makes an icing problem with this particular aircraft unlikely. These planes are not only built for cold weather, they are tested in cold weather.

4. This plane departed from one of the 9/11 airports, Newark. I would hardly call a Newark-Buffalo run a long and tiring one, so the allegaton of fatigue is unlikely. I wonder if the same airport security company was employed on the date of occurrence, as was on 9/11?

5. The witness statements are consistent and all point toward an obvious pause in engine sound, which may indicate mechanical failure, a key result of sabotage. I am sure we are at the point of our illustrious existence where an aircraft can be sabotaged to mimic mechanical failure.

It makes little sense to dismiss certain conclusions, especially when there is both motive and opportunity present in a case.

[edit on 14-2-2010 by SphinxMontreal]



posted on Feb, 14 2010 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by starviego
but I have only heard about this 'Zaka' group in the last decade or so. Why now?


How about reading the Wiki article? It is explained there... "In 1995 the newly organized ZAKA were officially recognized by the Israeli government"

[edit on 14/2/10 by dereks]



posted on Feb, 14 2010 @ 10:04 PM
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reply to post by SphinxMontreal
 





5. The witness statements are consistent and all point toward an obvious pause in engine sound, which may indicate mechanical failure, a key result of sabotage. I am sure we are at the point of our illustrious existence where an aircraft can be sabotaged to mimic mechanical failure.


Please give your experience in accident investigation beyond I watch
Youtube videos ?


The fact that plane is built by Bombardier has nothing to do with crash - it was the weather conditions that date combined with human error by the
pilots who stalled the aircraft

Here is the NTSB findings of the accident.

ntsb.gov...



posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by dereks
How about reading the Wiki article?

I have read the article. But the question remains. If recovering all the remains is so important for religious reasons, why has this unit only been in existence since '95? Did they actually do anything useful at the accident site? Why were they even allowed on the scene?

----------

Anyway here is more evidence of engine failure--


File ID 417219 from the NTSB Dockets, ''Powerplant Group field notes,'' does seem to indicate that the left prop may have thrown three 'counterweight' assemblies right before the crash, which may have caused some of the shaft bearings to disintegrate(or vise versa). Remember a few of the ear-witnesses heard a sound like metal grinding on metal.


No 1 engine-

pg2of23
-Three of the six counterweights remained attached to their respective propeller blade outer sleeve, while the other three had become separated and were not recovered by the Powerplant Group.

pg7of23
The No.15 roller bearing, located on the aft side of the bull gear, was present and the cage was fractured with two(2) of the roller elements missing. ...the No.19 roller bearing rolling elements were visible and one(1) roller was missing. ....The No.2.5 roller bearing cage was still attached to the front of the LP shaft. The cage appeared intact but all the roller elements were missing.

pg8of23
The outer diameter of the PT(power turbine) shaft exhibited circumferential rub mark(s) from the fractured end to almost the shoulder where the shaft diameter changes.

pg10of23
The three(3) blade positions sequentially around about the top(as the propellor was situated on the ground) had complete sets of counterweight assemblies(counter weight arm, counterweight, and rear collar) still attached, while the three(3) blade positions that were buried in the ground were missing their complete counterweight assembly.

It should be noted that none of the aforementioned damage was reported for the No.2 engine.


A few of the eyewitness accounts were consistent with an engine fire--

File ID 431227
pg4of131, Maha Abdallah
Before the plane impacted the ground, Abdallah noticed sparks coming from the plane.

pg9of131, Stanley Barnas
...he saw a bright orange flash out of the living room window. ...Barnas is 100percent certain that he saw the bright orange flash before the crash.

pg15of131, Cindy Borgosz
...saw a bright orange glow through the west window.... the orange glow was not flickering. ....the orange glow diminished, then there was a large boom and an orange 'mushroom cloud.''

pg22of131, Patricial Burns
...noticed flames coming from the rear of the aircraft.

pg96of131, Kaitlin Smith
...she saw a red/orange light in the sky.... after the flash, the sky darkened and then she heard a big bang.



They said they never found the missing counterweights. Maybe they should have looked harder--

pg27of131, Mary Cimato
The Cimato's also pointed out three large holes in a pond located behind their house... ... The previous day the entire pond was frozen over, and the morning after the crash they observed holes in the ice.


/

[edit on 15-2-2010 by starviego]



posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 12:27 PM
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Also of interest is a text message Capt Renslow sent back to dispatch very late into the flight, probably at some point in the descent.

NTSB Dockets File ID 417472

ACARS Report, pg2of3
AIRCRAFT COMMUNICATIONS ADDRESSING AND REPORTING SYSTEM, is mostly a communications network, used to pass short messages back and forth between aircraft and ground facilities. Typically this is the dispatch office of an airline.

A message to ACARS, very late in the flight, is described as

''Uplink-PLEASE ADVICE ME''

Was the pilot asking to know where to find a good pizza place in Buffalo? No, I think this means the pilot was asking advice on a problem with the aircraft as he was descending. Tellingly, the NTSB docs do not give us the text of the mystery message right before the upset.

(this message was transmitted 1 hour, 21 minutes after take-off, though the flight only lasted an hour, according to the Flight Data Recorder)



/

[edit on 15-2-2010 by starviego]



posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 12:27 PM
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There were also a number of other anomalies that were not addressed by investigators or that should otherwise be noted:


--Did the aircraft suddenly suffer electronic failure at the time of the stall? No 'mayday' call was heard, the flight code ID transponder signals may have stopped transmitting, and the TCAS (pronounced T-cass)--Traffic Collision Avoidance System--may have stopped working.

--An on-scene poster also noted that the big national media was not airing news of the accident even after the story had broken locally.
www.airlinepilotforums.com... l
''Interesting how their is NOTHING on ANY major news outlets yet. 2357 and I haven't seen a thing. Wonder what's up with that???'' (1 hour, 40 minutes later)

--Suspiciously, the authorities were very quick to rule out terrorism.
www.airlinepilotforums.com... ml
''Isn't it funny how various government agencies rule out terrorism before they could possibly know what happened?'' [posted 11 and a half hours later]

forums.jetphotos.net...
--NTSB spokesman Steve Chealander suddenly retired two weeks after the crash. As one poster put it: ''Puh-leese! You don't resign at 62 from a nice govt. job while leading an important investigation unless you're pushed.'' Did he dispute the way the investigation was being handled?

wjz.com...
--On Friday, U.S. Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., said Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood had told him he believes the aircraft made a 180-degree turn at 5,000 feet.

--New York Governor Patterson established a fund for children of the dead victims, providing four years of college free, including money for room and board and other expenses. The only precedent for this was a similar fund for the surviving children of the 9/11 victims. Did the government feel it had some culpability for the crash? It sounds like it did.

Performance Group, Crash Site Factual, pg5
--The flight 3407 preliminary landing weight estimate was based on the planned passenger count of 71 persons, adjusted for 44 actual passengers....
[Comment: Did 27 planned passengers miss this flight?]

--Two Buffalo attorneys, Michael Doran and Matthew Schnirel, who were hired by the family of one of the victims, died after their own plane likewise malfunctioned and crashed near Cleveland, Ohio 10 weeks later.






/

[edit on 15-2-2010 by starviego]



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 10:00 AM
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reply to post by starviego
 


'starviego', I truly wish you knew what you are talking about!!!

Please, look again at the NTSB docket #417472 and the FULL ACARS report.

You posted this snippet:


A message to ACARS, very late in the flight, is described as

''Uplink-PLEASE ADVICE ME''

Was the pilot asking to know where to find a good pizza place in Buffalo? No, I think this means the pilot was asking advice on a problem with the aircraft as he was descending. Tellingly, the NTSB docs do not give us the text of the mystery message right before the upset.


Please, please look again at HOW ACARS works!

The "PLEASE ADVICE (sic) ME" was sent from dispatch!! NOT from the flight crew!

It is quite evident when you understand the sequence of earlier messages...IF you werfe an airline pilot it would be even easier to understand.

I'm sorry, but you're fishing in the wrong pond, here....and I could cite other examples of your misunderstandings....



posted on Sep, 26 2010 @ 03:46 PM
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I had previously mentioned that the names of two passengers were not released until weeks after the crash. One of these was that of Dipinder Sidhu, a graduate student from California who was of south asian extraction. Apparently he was unique amongst the passengers as no physical trace of this person was recovered from the crash site.

www.buffalonews.com...
But Nirmal Sidhu, who is a Sikh, is troubled that none of her son's remains were recovered from the crash site.

post-journal.com...
Dr. Raymond G. Miller of the Erie County Medical Examiner's office led the local volunteer dentists who began the victim identification. Nothing recognizable in any of the victims provided identification. It was incumbent upon investigators to rely on dental records being cross referenced and identified by victim's teeth and the comparisons deemed necessary. As stated by authorities at the time: ''accurate documentation in the dental record of materials used was crucial for the lab to confirm identification in degraded cases.''

The FBI sent me 166 pages of documents under a FOIA request, which had this to say:

pg49 of 166
"Synopsis: Presumed Identification of DIPINDER S. SIDHU and Indices Check regarding same.

"Details: NJTTF/Civil Aviation Security Program SSA(Redacted) contacted SA (Redacted) and SA (Redacted) regarding National Transportation Safety Board(NTSB) contact to FBIHQ vis a vis the inability to locate identifiable remains for DIPINDER S. SIDHU. The genesis of the contact was that NTSB had now developed enough data to announce the incident as an accident, yet wanted to make sure there were no peripheral details which would detract from the factual basis of the investigation and be fuel for unwarranted speculation.

"As such, indices check were conducted on SIDHU, and no record of said individual was found in any relevant FBI database or relevant documents(other than the flight manifest provided by Continental Airlines). In follow-up conversation with NTSB(Redacted) telephone (three lines Redacted).
However, SIDHU's wallet contents to include drivers license, student I.D. and religious card indicated his presence on the airplane."

-----------

So apparently the one passenger who was burnt beyond all identification was also the one passenger whose ID survived the crash and provided proof he was actually aboard that aircraft.

Shades of 9/11's Muhammed Atta and his miraculously surviving passport!!



posted on Sep, 26 2010 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by starviego
 


Oh, Brother!!!!!!



Shades of 9/11's Muhammed Atta and his miraculously surviving passport!!


Not this nonsense, yet again?!?

M. Atta's passport was NOT one of the (very many, and not just form the hijackers' possessions) that were recovered from the various crash sites.

Yet another of the (many, many) "truther" lies that abound.....sad, really. When people merely parrot what they read, without doing any real research......



posted on Sep, 26 2010 @ 09:36 PM
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what do they have a kosher way of been pick up
ok so why do they have to fly them from isreal if they have a zaka team in usa In the United States, Zaka can be reached at:
1303 53rd Street, Suite #170
Brooklyn, NY 11219
Telephone: 718-676-0039







edit on 26-9-2010 by knowneedtoknow because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 29 2010 @ 10:27 PM
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The official vesrsion has it that the plane plunged to the ground at a very steep angle. However, the accounts of a few of the witnesses indicate the plane was already flying very low while it was still a long way from impact. This suggests that the pilot had re-gained control of the plane after the stall, and hence something else caused the final, fatal plunge to earth. To wit:

FBI docs on the investigation of Colgan flt 3407 crash

pg123 of 166
On the evening of 2-12-09, (Redacted) heard a low flying plane near his house that was unlike the sound of other airplanes he has heard nearby. The aircraft was flying so low that it made him shriek. (Redacted) was later watching television and saw the breaking news coverage of the airplane crash and then realized the he is only 6-8 miles from the crash site and that the airplane he heard was likely the one that crashed.

pg124 of 166
On the night of Thursday, February 12, 2009, (Redacted) was on duty (Redacted). At 10:15 pm or 10:30pm, (Redacted) was outside disposing of garbage, when he heard a plane which was very low and didn't sound normal. (Redacted) cited a "rambling noise" which sounded as if an engine was not running properly.
Administrative: (Redacted) is approximately ten miles due East of the crash site.

pg146 of 166
At approximately 10:15pm on February 12, 2009 (Redacted) heard a low flying plane by her house. She said the plane was making loud noises, as though metal was banging and clattering. (Redacted) said she lives 12-15 miles away from the crash site, but believes the plane she heard was flight 3407. She did not see the plane in flight.


Another witness confirmed that the plane was flying level before the crash:

pg20 of 166
It was flying approximately two to three times the height of the tree line, and the airplane's flying lights were on. ... At first the airplane seemed to be flying level, but then it suddenly went nose down and crashed. ((Redacted) made her hand flat to describe the airplane flying level, and made an abrupt downward motion).





edit on 29-9-2010 by starviego because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 30 2010 @ 08:53 AM
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reply to post by starviego
 


Oh, no...not more "eyewitness" ("earwitness") reports by non-aviaiton types who could have mistaken the Colgan airplane for another....this si the sort of nonsense that leads to irrelevant speculation...and facts get lost along the way.

Here, the NTSB video, from the DFDR. It tells the story completely. Notice, BTW, the altitude. 2,300 feet. That is MSL (mean sea level). The airport field elevation at Buffalo is 728 feet. (That also happens to be the elevation of the approach end of Runway 23, the assigned landing runway). Above sea level. Meaning, height above ground (relative to airport elevation) is ~1,570 feet.



People hear an airplane pass overhead, down at 1,500 feet. THEN, after-the-fact, when interviewed, they "think" they "heard" something unusual...because they ALREADY KNOW about the crash!!



posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 11:27 AM
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Well if there was a coverup, the covert operators certainly got the right crew to do the job:

www.examiner.com...
Experts who helped identify victims from Flight 93's crash in a Pennsylvania field on 9/11 have joined the search for remains from a commuter plane's crash site outside Buffalo.

Ooo look, another confused eyewitness:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
A youngish woman reporting for WABC was "live" on the scene and approached two guys about twenty years old to ask them what they saw.
They said they were up late watching TV, heard the plane loud and low, ran outside and looked out to see what was happening. They said "the right engine was on fire" and was in trouble. "It was going up and down and then spun around and fell flat to the ground".

This confirms the findings of the crash investigators, who noticed crush damage on the underside of the fuselage and concluded in came down straight and level on its vertical access.

And another one, not previously mentioned:

transcripts.cnn.com...
DAVID LUCE, CRASH WITNESS: We heard the plane and it was unusually loud, so clearly it was low. But the engines sounded like they were revving at very high speed, unnatural sound. So we're quite used to them, usually don't pay attention, but this obviously was something a little different. And then the engine cut out and stopped. And then within a couple of seconds, there was this tremendous explosion. So all of that happened in a period of about probably 15 or 20 seconds.

Obviously, the investigators were very aware of the 'mechanical problem' hypothesis:

www.nytimes.com...
The Federal Bureau of Investigation has been scouring the neighborhood for parts that were thrown off before the plane hit the ground but have not found any, investigators said.

Another pilot noticed something odd about that plane(N200WQ) on the very day of the crash--yet more evidence that the aircraft had mechanical issues:

www.airliners.net...
Holy smokes I saw N200WQ at Albany today! It was parked at C1 and was going to operate a flight to EWR as CO3202 and was delayed be several hours.
The crew did an engine run up test on the right engine before the passengers boarded. One of the flight deck crew was outside the aircraft during the run up monitoring something. After the test was completed, the passengers boardly shortly and the aircraft pushed back from the gate.


/
edit on 8-12-2010 by starviego because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-12-2010 by starviego because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 8 2010 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by starviego
 


You are STILL trying so very hard, to make something out of nothing?? There is nothing here, the NTSB has done a thorough job, the CVR and DFDR are conclusive, the behavior of the crew, and the poor attention to the task of flying the airplane are evident......this sort of pilot error accident is NOT unique, BTW!!

This is what happens when people who know nothing about airplanes try to get interested in such things....they will focus on whatever fits their already preconceived biases....this is evident, here.

Trying to remember...first, the forensics investigators? Just because they were same people who STILL work for NTSB (or whichever agency was called in, for identification of human remains), that worked for same agencies in 2001, and thus worked on the United 93 crash site? (AND, they are in the same general geographical location?? You DO realize there are regional offices, and they cover specific areas...so, IF this were a crash in California, then there would have been DIFFERENT people, quite likely, for example).

Next, these reports (by "eyewitnesses" on the ground?) of the engine on "fire"?? Yeah, as if they're qualified. It was night, instrument meteorological conditions (above about 2,000 AGL. Here is the MET report):


The last reported weather at BUF prior to the accident was the ATIS broadcast at
2154 EST, which stated: wind of 250 degrees at 15 knots, gusting to 22 knots, with
visibility of three miles in light snow and mist, with a few clouds at 1,100’, ceiling at 2,100’
with broken clouds, and overcast at 2,700’


You may wish to read the full report submitted BY THE AIRLINE, Colgan Air, that operated the flight:

www.airsafe.com...


These sorts of "eyewitnesses" (who thought they saw an "engine on fire") can make stuff up, from hysterical memory....they take a memory of what they've seen in a MOVIE, and then transfer to what they thought they saw....oh, and the others? Who said they heard the "right engine stop" in flight??? Wow! Quite an incredible skill they have...to HEAR which engine has "quit"!!

Searching for any parts "IF" there were in-flight break ups. That is standard, as part of the investigation as to cause. Al pertinent parts need to be recovered, to determine cause (and to rule out mechanical factors, when appropriate).

What else? .....Oh, the guy who saw the airplane in Albany? It is very, very common for those types of airplanes to operate the RIGHT engine, on the ground, even while boarding passengers. The APU may have been inoperative, for example. AND, a pilot is NOT a mechanic!!! Any pilot seen on a walk around, prior to departure, "checking" things? Done before EVERY flight!!!

Really....not being a pilot means that these very typical instances are misunderstood by the lay person. Same with "eyewitnesses" who are lay people. I wouldn't count on them, just from reading them, without knowing a LOT more about the person involved in the "reports".


edit on 8 December 2010 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 9 2010 @ 04:18 AM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by starviego
 


Oh, Brother!!!!!!



Shades of 9/11's Muhammed Atta and his miraculously surviving passport!!


Not this nonsense, yet again?!?

M. Atta's passport was NOT one of the (very many, and not just form the hijackers' possessions) that were recovered from the various crash sites.

Yet another of the (many, many) "truther" lies that abound.....sad, really. When people merely parrot what they read, without doing any real research......


wheres your source for such claim? You cant shout truther lie with out some evidence of your own yet another os believer lie



posted on Dec, 9 2010 @ 04:29 AM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 



And, that model airplane incorporates a "stick pusher" system when an impending stall is detected. The Captain seemed to be unaware/not properly trained in its operation. It looks like he panicked, tried to bring the nose up, and aggravated the stall, resulting in the roll-over and crash (they were at low altitude, on final approach).


What the hell Weedwacker??
He was a trained pilot with full qualifications..
I did part training to commercial standards but one thing I learned early on..
If a plane is stalling, it's nose down to gain airspeed as fast as possible..
If low, full throttle and nose down as much as safe..
Nose up would be the LAST thing you'd consider...

Are you REALLY trying to say a trained pilot would do the opposite??
I find that freakin unbelievable..!!!!!




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