Is Access to Health Care a Basic Human Right?

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Does a CEO work harder than a teacher at your local High School? Does your Congressman work harder than the farmer who grows your food? This is not a liberal/conservative issue, it's a societal issue. Should your Congresswoman live due to the care she got for her breast cancer, while your sister who works at Walmart dies due to lack of access to the same health care?

And we may not say education is a basic human right in this country (US for our non-american members), but we provide it and legislate it like it is, so basically is.

You are wrong, it is not a society issue, it is a Left vs Right issue, more so since what you are talking about is nothing more than Communism.

As for congress people getting more money, even many among the right know, and we postulate that they are getting too much money, and people are concentrating more on money, than on the issues.

There should be "affordable healthcare" not free healthcare which is paid by the people. Money doesn't grow on trees even though the Left apparently thinks so...

Originally posted by Tinman67
When less than 20% of the worlds population use 80% of the worlds resources it has to be addressed. What are basic human rights?
.................

Ah, so you want redistribution of wealth?.... I wonder where that came from?...

BTW in case you didn't know already the Obama camp has already made plans to "redistribute the wealth", and they even stated publicly that "they don't have to worry about what the Middle Class will do, because the Middle Class will be more worried about staying on their jobs, getting our children to school" etc, etc...

You really have no idea what you are asking for.

[edit on 15-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by amazed

 

What about being responsible and not having children when you cannot afford them? I agree that all children should have healthcare and insurance, but I think it should be provided by their parents.

What about all the families that could afford health care when they had children, and then the economy wipes them out huh? Or they become sick and lose their job? Which means they lose their health care, or the thousand other reasons that keeps what is known as middle and lower class families from being able to afford health care.

But wait, that would mean that you have to have a humane heart which has compassion for your fellow human being to look at reality.

Greed greed greed. What about being responsible and showing compassion to your fellow humans. We are not separate entities in this world who do not need each other, we do need each other. Like it or not we are social creatures, and we do better when we ALL support each other instead of trying to stand alone in this big bad world.

It used to be that families lived around each other and supported each other, and now we are scattered all over the world. At one time if we needed help putting up a barn, we had a barn raising party and everyone would pitch in. Now, if someone even thinks about a "barn raising party", everyone yells "be responsible and raise your own da** barn". We have lost what is called "social responsibility", which is everyone helping each other when in need. A single person, cannot do it all, or we cannot do it all well. We need each other.

Some day, you might need to raise a barn, but because we have forgotten that the best of societies help each other, you won't get that help, and instead of being able to raise your barn over a weekend with the help of the whole town, you will spend months by yourself working on it.

The meaning of "it takes a village to raise a child"? Every person has something different that they are good at, you probably have things that you are better at than I am, and vice versa. The more loving, caring people involved in the raising of a child, the more likely the child is to grow up being able to be a productive and caring citizen.

And yes, if you are against a single payer health care system, then you are denying children health care. Because if we were to get a good system in place, children would have what they need medically. If you are just burying your head in the sand and refuse to see this situation for what it is, you are part of the problem.

I want to be a loving, caring compassionate person who understands my responsibility to children and steps up to the plate to do my part. Once adults start showing love and compassion, children will grow up with love and compassion in their hearts. Until then, we have greed and a me me me don't touch my wallet society. I can only hope that those of you against a single payer system, never have something horrible happen, where you would need that village I talked about to assist you. We all need help every now and then, like it or not. That is what is called "a social animal", and humans are social animals. Unless you are a hermit, and then when you fall over with a heart attack, no one will be around to help you and call 911, even if you are paying for health insurance.

Harm None
Peace

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts

According to your logic, I should stop paying my property taxes as I have no school age children, so why should I pay for your kids education?

And you would be right. People shouldn't pay for other people, unless they are doing it willingly.

There are too many taxes, and more taxes are on the way thanks to the current Socialist administration.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


Well, let's look at the real meat of the question here. While you say one thing, what you're really saying is "Do people have the right to demand something for free if they can't/won't afford it?". So far, pretty much everyone in this country has access to medical care. if its an emergency, they'll take you in no matter what in most all cases if its life threatening. Now.. you're going to have to contend with the bill for all this later.

But, if you're poor, then welfare (read: me - the middle class) will pay for it, yet bar me (read: the middle class) from these same benefits.

But, here is the real problem.. obamby and crew are trying to splice a socialist healthcare system on top of a capitalist/free market healthcare system. for it to actually work (a relative term when dealing with any socialist system), you have to control things from end to end. That means you have to control 2 advil costing $30 in charges becuase it has to be delivered by a registered nurse, in a certain cup, and pay liability insurance, and this and so on, and administrate each pill, and whatever else the insurance companies demand because we as a people have sued the system into its own hyperinflation and expensive CYA modes.

if you can control that you can make it vaguely more viable, but still no tworkable. and itll cost much less. but.. who determines teh pay scale, and then where is the drive to excel?

I don't think that health care is a basic right.

I worry that once the government gets involved, that the quality will go down.

But I think that something needs to be done.

Last week, I picked up a prescription at the drugstore for an allergy medication. I have a $40 co pay for about a 5 month supply. The cost of the drug as dispensed was well over $300.

If I had to pay full cost, I'd do without. Once I saw the full price, I have to admit that something is wrong with our system. Why should some nose spray cost that much? Now, I'm thinking that I won't refill it because the cost is far too much for the benefit that I receive.

Health care is not a right. Education up to the age of 15 (I think) is compulsory. Back to this health care BS: FREE CARE IS AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE WHO CAN'T PAY. not-for profit hospitals and for profit hospitals do a lot of pro bono work. As for "the same level of health care as a member of congress or a CEO" this is complete BS also. The only thing different from my health insurance and a member of congress is the room we stay in. Those in Hollywood, the government, music, etc are given special hospital rooms to keep them from prying eyes. Other than that, we all get the same level of care.

There is way too strong a feeling of entitlement in this country. People think they are owed something and they are willing to let the government provide it rather than getting off their butts and working for it. I bet most (probably not the elderly) that "can't afford insurance" spend money that could go to insurance on cable, the internet, cell phones, car payments etc. Their priorities are screwed up.

However, as this is a conspiracy forum, should not we look to who is creating this problem (those in government) and who is offering the solution (those in government). The government can't run itself, how can we expect it to run health care.

SM-88: free thinker

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong wrong!!!!! Those of you on the right want to make it a political issue. It is a societal issue. A three year old with leukemia should get the same care whether he is from a rich family or a poor family, whether he is from a conservative family or a liberal family, whether his dad is a farmer or a neurosurgeon. What message do we want to send to the world and to future generations? Do we care for all our citizens, or just the ones who can afford it?

And if you read my last post (bottom of last page), I covered the affordable vs. free debate, and unlike what the right would like you to believe, that is the current goal for healthcare reform.

Originally posted by Tinman67
.............
What right in the world could ever be more important than the right to life itself?

You are saying this when a so called Universal Healthcare will screw older people just like another member said?

I am nowhere near 55 yet, but my parents are. Should the elder people in the U.S. suffer because you and some others want more free healthcare? Should all Americans pay more taxes because you, and some others want free healthcare? We should not.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts



Wrong, wrong, wrong, it is about politics. People should have affordable healthcare, not free healthcare which every American must pay, alongside every new tax which the current administration has in mind, which includes taxes on cows, other farm animals, and even pets. Taxes for CO2, which is not the cause for any Climate Change, and is in fact needed for all Carbon life in this planet to exist, and every other tax that will be passed by the current administration soon.

Single Payer is the only fair system providing health care for all citizens.
It should be a right not a privilege. Currently 1 out of every 3 health care dollars is spent on "administrative" costs. That dollar would more than pay for health care for ALL citizens.

Unless you'd rather give your money to these parasites!!!!

Link

Among the most-talked about compensation reports this year is the $1.6 billion option package for UnitedHealth Group CEO William McGuire at a time when more than 40 million Americans lack health insurance.

The numbers are numbing, which is why we should do something about this.

* United Health Group
CEO: William W McGuire
2005: 124.8 mil
5-year: 342 mil

* Forest Labs
CEO: Howard Solomon
2005: 92.1 mil
5-year: 295 mil

* Caremark Rx
CEO: Edwin M Crawford
2005: 77.9 mil
5-year: 93.6 mil

* Abbott Lab
CEO: Miles White
2005: 26.2 mil
5-year: 25.8 mil

* Aetna
CEO: John Rowe
2005: 22.1 mil
5-year:57.8 mil

* Amgen
CEO: Kevin Sharer
2005:5.7 mil
5-year:59.5 mil

* Bectin-Dickinson
CEO: Edwin Ludwig
2005: 10 mil
5-year:18 mil

* Boston Scientific
CEO:
2005:38.1 mil
5-year:45 mil

* Cardinal Health
CEO: James Tobin
2005:1.1 mil
5-year:33.5 mil

* Cigna
CEO: H. Edward Hanway
2005:13.3 mil
5-year:62.8 mil

* Genzyme
CEO: Henri Termeer
2005: 19 mil
5-year:60.7 mil

* Humana
CEO: Michael McAllister
2005:2.3 mil
5-year:12.9 mil

* Johnson & Johnson
CEO: William Weldon
2005:6.1 mil
5-year:19.7 mil

* Laboratory Corp America
CEO: Thomas MacMahon
2005:7.9 mil
5-year:41.8 mil

* Eli Lilly
CEO: Sidney Taurel
2005:7.2 mil
5-year:37.9 mil

* McKesson
CEO: John Hammergen
2005: 13.4 mil
5-year:31.2 mil

* Medtronic
CEO: Arthur Collins
2005: 4.7 mil
5-year:39 mil

* Merck Raymond Gilmartin
CEO:
2005: 37.8 mil
5-year:49.6 mil

* PacifiCare Health
CEO: Howard Phanstiel
2005: 3.4 mil
5-year: 8.5 mil

* Pfizer
CEO: Henry McKinnell
2005: 14 mil
5-year: 74 mil

* Well Choice
CEO: Michael Stocker
2005: 3.2 mil
5-year: 10.7 mil

* WellPoint
CEO: Larry Glasscock
2005: 23 mil
5-year: 46.8 mil

* Wyeth
CEO: Robert Essner
2005:6.5 mil
5-year: 28.9 mil


TOTAL 2005: 559.8 mil

TOTAL 5-Year: 14.9 billion

[edit on 15-6-2009 by Leo Strauss]

reply to post by JaxonRoberts



Oh, and btw, you did say "The Right must", so in essence you are indicating you are somewhere in the left... so yes it is a political issue...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


I am now begining to believe that those on the right get their facts from Rush Limbaugh! Of course we should all pay for education, whether we have school age children or not. It is an investment on this nation's future. If we don't invest in education and healthcare, we face generations of ignorant, uneducated, sickly, unproductive citizens. Think I'm wrong? Go check out the cost of private education and what it would cost for the healthcare of a child without insurance (and I mean the kind of education and healthcare you would want for your child!).

This ME, ME, ME $$$$$ mentality will be the downfall of this society, not anything that any politician, no matter what party, will ever do!

Ok I have a couple of opinions about this and I grazed through the 4 pages and apologies if I repeat what someone else said

One, in my mind if you are going to go down the line of "health care is not a right" where does it stop? By that thinking you can say well, roads are not a right. No more taxpayer money for roads, all roads will be toll roads or lets install counters on all vehicles and you pay by your road usage.

Hmm clean municipal water isn't a right. Everybody is on their own to get fresh water & get rid of their waste water.

Let's see, clean air, that's not a right. Sucks to be you if you live near a factory.

And safety regulations for food & drug companies? It's nobody's business but businesses what they pump out. Afterall, they wouldn't want to kill their customers, it's not in their best interest.

Access to a police service - that's definitely not a right. Every man, woman, and child for his/herself. Same with fire departments.

I mean... I am exaggerating here. But my point is, there are certain things we, as citizens, cooperate together to keep society running at a certain level of comfort. We have roads and tap water and telephones and police etc...etc... As far as I am concerned, it's largely a good thing! I mean, it's civilization!

And many different countries have degrees of comfort and degrees of shared burdens. Look at Somalia, basically a chaotic free-for-all. Every man for himself - And then you have countries like Norway at the opposite end of the spectrum - huge welfare state but roughly 2.6% unemployment. Hardly the welfare leeching some American conservatives would have you believe automatically goes hand in hand with a social safety net.

I believe it's more civilized for all citizens to have access to healthcare. I also think our for-profit, private system has been shown to cost more money and not get any better health outcomes than the socialized systems in other first-world countries. This idea that some how the private health systems we have in the US are *better* is false.

America just has to decide - are we a grown-up civilization that believes in looking after each other, even at the risk of some abuse, and finding a way to provide cost-effective, fair healthcare. Or are we a country of "every man for himself."?

I'm sorry but, "every man for himself" only works when the majority are cooperating together. It's like the people who don't want to vaccinate their kids - fine, but the only reason you might be able to get away with it without your kid dying of measles is because everybody else in school *did* have their kids vaccinated.

And it's not just a matter of a 100% government health system or a 100% privatized one. There has got to be a middle ground if people are willing to look for it.

Sadly I don't think it's possible to reach a consensus in a country with the size population we have.

Lastly if owning a firearm is a *American right* then gosh darn it, being able to buy affordable health insurance that doesn't exclude this, that and the other - or being able to see a doctor & get treatment without it costing so much money you and your family are forced into poverty - yeah. That ought to be a right. Just my two cents.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by JaxonRoberts

 

Oh, and btw, you did say "The Right must", so in essence you are indicating you are somewhere in the left... so yes it is a political issue...

BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Wrong answer, skippy! I'm a centrist. See what happens when you ass-u-me! I stand by my post concerning the political relevence of the issue.

Health care is a commodity.

It is a service that must be paid for.

It is not a right. How could it be?

No one has a 'right' to any commodity.

reply to post by Leo Strauss


I am not a rich person, nowhere even close to being rich, yet I don't want to, or demand for "the rich to give their money". Why don't you ask the Liberals in Hollywood to give most of their millions, or even billions for healthcare, or for the poor? Of course not, they would rather continue living in their million dollar houses, and keep spending money in all they want meanwhile demanding the rest of the American taxpayers to pay for everything, and everyone else...

There should be laws to provide affordable healthcare, just like there should be laws that help the small business owners. There should be laws against companies that take American jobs overseas. There should be laws that make such big companies that employ Americans, provide them affordable healthcare, as well as a paycheck that "at least" is enough for a person to pay for all the needs of that person. But there should never, ever, be redistribution of wealth, or the so called "Universal, or free healthcare", because the money being paid for that will come from none other than the American tax-payer.




[edit on 15-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts

BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Wrong answer, skippy! I'm a centrist. See what happens when you ass-u-me! I stand by my post concerning the political relevence of the issue.

You call yourself a centrist, yet you stand with the Left, at least on this issue. You might call yourself whatever you want to, but when you are calling for "free helathcare' you are taking one side, and that is the lLeft, you are not being "centrist" in the least.

So you keep ass-u-ming that you are a centrist while calling for leftist reforms....

Originally posted by mysterybee
Ok I have a couple of opinions about this and I grazed through the 4 pages and apologies if I repeat what someone else said

One, in my mind if you are going to go down the line of "health care is not a right" where does it stop? By that thinking you can say well, roads are not a right. No more taxpayer money for roads, all roads will be toll roads or lets install counters on all vehicles and you pay by your road usage.

Hmm clean municipal water isn't a right. Everybody is on their own to get fresh water & get rid of their waste water.

Let's see, clean air, that's not a right. Sucks to be you if you live near a factory.

And safety regulations for food & drug companies? It's nobody's business but businesses what they pump out. Afterall, they wouldn't want to kill their customers, it's not in their best interest.

Oh boy, I guess everyone does not use the roads to go to work, and even school... i guess everyone does not use the water, and sewage...

Completely different issues. Every American should not pay for the healthcare of other Americans, but there are certain things we ALL USE, and of course it has to be paid somehow.

As for "clean air, I would like to know exaclty what you call as "clean air", for the taxes being put on CO2 have nothing to do with "clean air".

As for the "safety regulations in food and drugs", as you are saying this this is being misused. Farmers are being demanded to use GM seeds, and anyone trying to have their own small farm/garden is being told they cannot do so, and plans are being made to pass it into law that people can't have such small farms/gardens because they don't meet the so called "food and safety regulations" which have only caused more problems and have solved none...

[edit on 15-6-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Proper health care is a right. It's easy to say it's not if you have good insurance.

It's easy to say it's not if you DON'T have a father like me who is undergoing treatment for cancer which he could not do otherwise without medicare.

Does he NOT have the right to live?

That's really all this boils down to people.

I don't believe that government should control healthcare...but obviously something HAS TO BE DONE.

I sure as hell hope that everyone understands that the current system is completely unsustainable.