IF you tolerate this, then YOUR children WILL be next., page 6

Originally posted by mjfromga
If nothing else, we have given these two "engineers" proper roll models. Have you all been proper roll models for your children???
[edit on 14-6-2009 by mjfromga]

The word that you are looking for is "role" models. That's okay, you mentioned in previous posts that you work in public education. I understand why those big words might be a little bit tricky. It seems to be a rather widespread problem amongst public education personnel. My daughter is in public school and I got a particularly disturbing note home from her (then) kindergarten teacher. It was hand written and photocopied in the teacher's handwriting. This is EXACTLY what the note said (yes, I saved it):
"Hi we're doing a Fundraiser for the victims of hurricane Katrina. If ever one here gave at least $2.00 and we can raise over $400.00.
And if we raise more then $300.00 we get a pj Party!"

This is not exaggerated at all. I understand that we are all human and make mistakes, but this is just one example of many. I had a handful of notes home the first week of school that year that caused my husband to literally confiscate my red pens. The weekly newsletter wasn't much better, either.

At a different public school, my nephew's kindergarten teacher called my sister on an almost weekly basis to ask the definition of various words that my nephew was using. One word that I remember off hand was "vociferous". There were quite a few others that I just can't remember right now. But, come on! Really? When did it become a parent's responsibility to educate the teacher because the student was too smart? If my kindergarten nephew is too smart for his teacher, I have SERIOUS misgivings about the state of the public education system!

Frankly, these people could have passed for village idiots. I generally don't go all spelling/grammar police because I get caught up and typing fast and make my own mistakes, but these examples were the rule, not the exception and I really do have a problem with that. These are the same people who can't be tested to find out if they should even qualify to be teachers. A majority would immediately be disqualified if they could be tested. Coming from a family that has produced quite a few educators myself, this isn't a secret or anything, but a constant complaint from the teachers who are left to clean up the messes of the teachers who should never have been allowed to teach in the first place.

Yet, these are also the same people you claim to be qualified to determine whether a homeschooled child is getting a valid education? Really? Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that I am able to share your confidence. As though that weren't bad enough, look at the numbers when it comes to abuse by public educators. Sex Abuse By Teachers Worse Than Catholic Church

Such figures led her to contend "the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."

or Abuse in Public School Ignored or maybe these Sexual Abuse Statistics will explain why I want public educators and the government nowhere near my child. (H/T to FlyersFan for the links.) This seems pretty straight forward to me. Maybe that's just because I'm a product of successful homeschooling, though.

Take care,
Cindi

reply to post by neformore

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I can see your point. But I can also see theirs too.

One one hand we must consider the growing problem of britain's underclass. The root of this underclass is purely from poor education. People with no GCSE's can't get a good job and are bored with the job that they do have, so they turn to means that are less than legal but are, in their opinion, more cool (gangsta) in nature.
The problem also lies with bored parents. The parents have kids because they're never going to earn enough to get a house of their own, so the child serves as a springboard to get a nice house from the council. The parent gets more bored with parenting as the years ware on and are more likely to just leave their children to their own amusements so they can have some piece and quiet: Enter the scallywags.

I think various things have brought this about, one of them probably being the maddie incident. The point is that nobody wants MORE under-educated kids simply falling into the underclass pool because they didn't receive good home education. This system - while the report is dramatic at best in order to sell the media - seems to cover the bases pretty well in ensuring that 1) the level of education the children are receiving at home is good and 2) that the children feel comfortable with this level of education and safe with the person delivering it.

Inspection of the home makes sense when turning a domesticated environment into an academic one. You want to be able to make sure that the child's progress is not going to be constantly hindered by distractions.

You might think that such distractions are necessary for the development of the mind and I will agree with you most heartily: nonsense is vital. Fantasy is a necessary ingredient for living also.
However, education and recreation must be delivered in a structured way so that the child can get a good education and thus have good prospects for the future.

The best way to assess this is simply to ASK the child, rather than draw what might be mistaken conclusions.

[edit on 14-6-2009 by James Random]

reply to post by Elliot

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If they are offering condoms and VD tests that means there is an outbreak at the school. Medical personnel do not approach children and offer those tests unless there have been reported cases, and generally they would privately approach those who others who are being treated stated they were active together. That is in compliance with reporting and
documentation.

They aren't sexualizing anything, teens have some of the highest VD percentages and the number of drug-resistant diseases being passed around is horrifying. Herpes and related diseases that have longterm health implications are making a comeback, that is something to consider. Kids have been having sex since we came out of the caves, they won't stop now but at least they can be safer. I;d rather my kid get tested and come out healthy than have him or her out spreading it.

reply to post by Glencairn

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Cindy, I have spent a good portion of the day defending my views on education to a few people who have somehow decided that I am the Devil's handyman merely because I had the audacity to suggest that home schooled children take the same tests as those attending public schools. You may not believe it is important that home schooled children learn the basics, but I do, and these tests help parents to plan for instruction in areas where their children are weak and may need additional assistance. Nowhere have I denounced homeschooling, although many have felt free to insinuate that anyone working in public education is trying to steal their children and force them into obeying all types of government edicts, some of which have nothing to do with the subject of education. Yes, I was perhaps “on a roll" and mistyped a word. Did you look back through the posts of these parents with the same thoroughness or cattiness? I thought not. In case you are somehow unaware, this is a forum where slang is often used, grammatical and spelling errors are common, and abbreviations are used in a context which would not be proper in the realm of academia. In short, we are not to be held to the same exacting standards, thank God, as those in publishing. However, I am certain, if you wanted to look even more diligently, you would find that I have a few typos as well (I certainly noticed a couple that slipped my attention earlier). But you are, as you say, a product of “successful” homeschooling and not as fallible as I – GOOD FOR YOU! However, can all of your posts withstand scrutiny, then? Tit for tat, I believe it is called? Look, for instance, at your sentence, "It was handwritten and photocopied in the teacher's handwriting." Do you not see redundancy and awkwardness in that sentence? I will not go into the fragments and other errors, though, as this thread is not about grammatical or spelling errors. God only knows, we are all guilty of these as we type quickly. Sometimes, in the heat of argument and the rush to edit, we neglect to proof as carefully as we should -- if at all. I do want you to understand, however, that throwing stones merely serves to teach the thrower a humbling lesson. Yes, I've been there myself on occasion. I do teach, by the way, as you surmised. You will be happy to learn that I am a mathematics teacher rather than one of English. I chose to work with at-risk children years ago because this is an area where I see a real need. How many times have you encountered a check-out person unable to make change? The lack of marketable math skills in much of our population has always alarmed me and I am trying to make a difference in these students' lives -- even if a small difference. I do have one bone to pick with you, however. You stated that I think unqualified teachers are the ones which should be in charge of deciding if a home schooled child is obtaining a valid education. I never stated that...you did. State tests are administered by certified teachers and are scored by the state. The child either passes or fails the test based on his/her knowledge. I don't know where you live, but I have never been in an environment which contained large numbers of unqualified teachers. Indeed, in many states all teachers are required to have taken tests which determine qualifications. NTE, GACE, PRAXIS (general and content), GRE...some of us, believe it or not, have been tested through the nose.

reply to post by muzzleflash

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WRONG. Every public school in Florida has Diversified Cooperative Training or the equivalent where students earn credits and pay for working in a job. All of the public high schools in our county teach varied aspects of entrepreneurship and business ownership in business and math classes and have directed academies in sports management, fashion, medicine, computers, and healthcare, to name a few programs. It is one of the poorest counties in Florida, so you can see that these options exist for all socioeconomic levels.

Incidentally, none of the private schools or home-based programs I have seen (and I am in contact with all of them locally through work) offer these opportunities. I have to second the notion mentioned by another poster about homeschoolers having emotional problems, I was assigned to write stories glorifying this concept or interviewing graduates every year and without exception all of them had significant problems with social functioning. An awful lot of them seem to have problems holding jobs, that is for sure. We hired homeschoolers as correspondents every year and without fail, none of them produced work.

I just remembered these "Ask the Homeschoolers" videos that I found a while ago.

Perhaps it might help "lighten up" this thread just a tad.



These two kids have made many videos and I just love them.

reply to post by neformore

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Wonder if this has anything to do with the level in which homeschoolers are making themselves known on college entry exams?

From what I know they can excell by huge leaps from public and even private school students.

This is not to discount the fact that in some instances it can be an excuse for child education neglect and social abstinence due to other problems in dysfunctional homes.

Originally posted by secretagent woooman
WRONG. Every public school in Florida has Diversified Cooperative Training or the equivalent where students earn credits and pay for working in a job.

so since things are the way you claim in Florida it MUST be that way everywhere else huh? Im not in Florida.

this is a perfect example of why public school Does not work.


"getting pay working in a job" is NOT entrepreneurship

entrepreneurship is giving someone ELSE a job and paying them

look up the definitions of words please

"Entrepreneurship according to Onuoha (2007) is the practice of starting new organizations or revitalizing mature organizations, particularly new businesses generally in response to identified opportunities. Entrepreneurship is often a difficult undertaking, as a vast majority of new businesses fail. "

en.wikipedia.org...

like i said public school teaches you to be a WORKER
if you want to be the BOSS you gotta think for yourself

by all means, go look it up

oh, and mind your own business too?

reply to post by muzzleflash

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Wrong. Learning how to set up and operate a business is the core concept of DCT. You cannot expect a teen to set up a business without real world experience. These teen wunderkinds people brag about are few and far between.

I hate to say this because there are plenty of functional homeschoolers out there but one reason so many of them wind up working for themselves is that they are often poor employees, and this is said having worked with quite a few in varied second jobs. You can't just show up whenever you want or produce whenever you want and expect to keep a job for someone else for very long. Or act neurotic or depend on your parents to fight your battles for you. Social phobias seem to be a transient problem that flares up when customers are waiting to be handled and goes away when it is lunch time. Let's not even mention answering customers on the phone, it doesn't seem to affect personal calls...way more than a homeschool problem I assure you!

Christ, what has happened to the workforce in this country? The stories I could tell you....it would take all day. But I digress.
Yes, Muzzleloader, there are actual entrepreneurship classes all over the country, check into the local high school's curriculum. Sometimes they are incorporated into tech classes, auto repair and graphic arts are very popular for that. Most community colleges with dual enrollment programs also have state or federally programs that will help those over 18 (sometimes 16) to start a business or at least provide assistance in completing paperwork and loan applications.

reply to post by eMachine

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To answer your question: "But... if they want to test my kids, or even test me before allowing me to homeschool, I suggest they test teachers regularly as well. Or perhaps, instead of having summers off, they could be required to take courses and learn about new developments and progressive research in their field, or even have coordinated meetings with other teachers to discuss their experiences and methods. Do they do this anywhere?"

Yes, teachers are required to take tests of subject matter, general knowledge, and methods knowledge. Yes, teachers are required to take further learning units (called PLUs in this state). Yes, teachers often continue their educations through even the PHD level...and they earn more money for each step they progress in their educations. Finally, teachers are also tested, in a round about way, whenever state tests and ITBS are administered. You see, employment reviews are often based on how well their students perform on these tests. As for my own training this summer, I just finished a week of reading, phonics, and spelling methods. While I teach math, you would be surprised at how a lack of reading skills affects all areas of the curriculum. Later this summer, I am taking another week-long course on understanding the autism spectrum, and yet another on Promethean Board training. Add a few weeks of preparation for next year, and my "summer" will consist of a vacation about as long as that of most workers: two weeks. Perhaps you should warn your cousin was it? If she is going into teaching because she doesn't want to work very hard and prefers a three-month summer...well it ain't gonna happen. I get up at 5 a.m. every day in order to get ready and drive to my school (bus drop-offs begin at 7 a.m.). Some go into eat breakfast and others sit around the classrooms waiting for the beginning bell to ring at 8:00. I do not get out until 3:30 p.m., but then I have to make plans, grade papers, complete paperwork, call parents, attend meetings, sponsor groups. My days are rarely less than 10 hours, and normally closer to 12. Most teachers are extremely hard-working and caring individuals -- if they aren't, they don't last. Unfortunately, the good teachers bail out as soon as they are able to retire because they burn out on the ever-changing state curriculums and mandates, clueless parents, and unruly children. No wonder we constantly face teacher shortages.

[edit on 15-6-2009 by mjfromga]

reply to post by eMachine

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What you said is exactly it! Personally, I am not saying that I hate public schools or that I think they shouldn't exist. I have my daughter in one currently. We've been lucky and not had an abundance of bad teachers. Just that kindergarten teacher and a sub who came in for the first quarter of this past school year. The kindergarten teacher I wasn't willing to let slide. She had been teaching for over 20 years according to the administration and they claimed repeatedly that their hands were tied in regard to her performance. That year I just continued teaching my daughter myself on her off time.

The sub my daughter had at the beginning of this past year got a bit more slack. He was just out of college and continuing his education further. He had no experience and I took that into consideration. My daughter had not gotten under a B until that point, though that one B was an anomaly itself. She has consistently gotten straight A's every report card. The sub assigned a class of 3rd graders 18 pages worth of homework one night. It was a mistake on his end, but I didn't know that and he was unavailable to ask, having bolted the second the bell rang that afternoon (as he did EVERY afternoon, despite only attending classes one day a week). My daughter did all 18 of those pages, but I was in the office wanting an explanation the next morning. Since he couldn't be bothered with arriving until minutes before the bell rang the kids got to start late that day. I was not leaving until I had an answer. Thus, he discovered that he had made a mistake.

A bit later was when the report cards came out and I discover that despite doing every bit of homework that was assigned my daughter had a D in social studies. Imagine my surprise. So, I arranged a meeting with the sub to find out why. He couldn't answer. He didn't know why my daughter got the grade he gave her. Yet, once he left and the regular teacher came back, that D was pulled back up to an A within a few weeks.

So, I am not holding some hatred of public schools, and I have truly loved most of the teachers that my daughter has had, they are wonderful people and fantastic teachers. That doesn't negate the fact that there absolutely are bad and unqualified teachers and they are the people I believe have no business evaluating me as a parent should I choose to homeschool. They can not give an accurate evaluation because they don't have the intellect required to do so. Unfortunately, there are a lot of those teachers out there.

I would also add that there seems to be a misconception about homeschool curriculum for some. A majority of homeschooling curriculum comes from academies with the authority to evaluate grades and progress and is acceptable if your state laws do require proof of education. That also isn't to say that sometimes homeschooling doesn't work for a family. That happens, but it isn't an indictment of homeschooling as a whole.

Take care,
Cindi

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