Why the hell should I feel sorry, says girl soldier who abused Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison

reply to post by miragezero


Just because Americans do such terrible things rather than the Iraqis doesn't make it right or any less horrible. I am sure the prisoners wouldn't see it that way. Hey guys look on the brightside, it could be worse! Erm.....yeah ok then.

[edit on 14/6/09 by Kram09]

Originally posted by Kram09

Originally posted by Kurotachi
i doubt he is trying to defend her. i think what he is trying to say is that. if we would have just left it alone and was not there. The Iraqis would have done way worse to the inmates then what we did. and yes they have done worse.

Okay but its still making excuses for her actions. It doesn't make it okay in the slightest. So the Iraqis would have treated them badly, but the Americans treated them badly, but not as bad, so that somehow makes it ok.....ummmm no don't think so.

did i say it made her actions ok? where did i ever say that? where did he ever say that? yeah neither of us ever did so try again....

reply to post by Kurotachi


He is implying that American soldiers doing such things is ok, but Iraqis doing such things is wrong, because they would be far worse.

Originally posted by miragezero

Originally posted by Kram09

Originally posted by miragezero
Well one thing she said I agree with; if the situation had been reversed those guys would have done 20 times worse to their prisoners. And they have.

The fact you agree with anything she said is appaling. So that somehow justifies her actiosn? Please tell me you are NOT trying to defend her.

I dunno; I don't know the extent of what was done with those prisoners... although I will say forming a human pyramid, being naked, wearing women's underwear, barking dogs, a human dogpile, and having a guy on a leash is about all I've seen of it. If that is about the extent of it then I can say it pales in comparison with getting your head cut off, your genitals removed etc etc... which to my knowledge we do not do. I don't agree with torture because I don't think it results in reliable information, but our version of torture seems more aligned to frat pranks... it would be better to try to inspire them to snap out of their mindset I think.

Waterboarding on the other hand.. yes that should never be allowed.

.

I agree 100% with you. but we did do much worse things then that. there all kinds of sites across the internet with 100's of pictures on them most of them are infact what you described but there are also much worse but i still agree with you.

Originally posted by Kram09
reply to post by Kurotachi

 

He is implying that American soldiers doing such things is ok, but Iraqis doing such things is wrong, because they would be far worse.

As far as i can see he was not implying anything to me its total speculation on your part and assuming he said that. and you know what they say about assuming. it makes an ass out of you and me....

Originally posted by Kram09
reply to post by miragezero

 

Hey guys look on the brightside, it could be worse! Erm.....yeah ok then.

[edit on 14/6/09 by Kram09]

Until such behavior and extremism is brought to heel worldwide (and I do mean including the US, Israel and the EU) we will have to deal with situations like this. If I had the time I would treat the prisoners for what they are... humans with a psychotic form of religious mind virus. Getting rid of that and getting information out of them would be difficult and time consuming. If they were holding you and your family hostage in the interim they would likely kill you for being English (btw I saw your post slamming the united states; if we weren't in the middle east cleaning up YOUR mess we wouldn't even be having this conversation...) I would likely want fast information so as to be able to better rescue you. Just saying.

Originally posted by miragezero

Originally posted by Kram09
reply to post by miragezero

 

Hey guys look on the brightside, it could be worse! Erm.....yeah ok then.

[edit on 14/6/09 by Kram09]

Until such behavior and extremism is brought to heel worldwide (and I do mean including the US, Israel and the EU) we will have to deal with situations like this. If I had the time I would treat the prisoners for what they are... humans with a psychotic form of religious mind virus. Getting rid of that and getting information out of them would be difficult and time consuming. If they were holding you and your family hostage in the interim they would likely kill you for being English (btw I saw your post slamming the united states; if we weren't in the middle east cleaning up YOUR mess we wouldn't even be having this conversation...) I would likely want fast information so as to be able to better rescue you. Just saying.

with each of your posts on this subject i begin to like and agree with you more and more. hehe. thumbs up your getting a star

Originally posted by Kram09
reply to post by Kurotachi

 

He is implying that American soldiers doing such things is ok, but Iraqis doing such things is wrong, because they would be far worse.

I am not implying but I am saying flat out that if we are going to do research and demonize let's concentrate on the most serious offenders first maybe?

Originally posted by miragezero

Originally posted by Kram09
reply to post by miragezero

 

Hey guys look on the brightside, it could be worse! Erm.....yeah ok then.

[edit on 14/6/09 by Kram09]

Until such behavior and extremism is brought to heel worldwide (and I do mean including the US, Israel and the EU) we will have to deal with situations like this. If I had the time I would treat the prisoners for what they are... humans with a psychotic form of religious mind virus. Getting rid of that and getting information out of them would be difficult and time consuming. If they were holding you and your family hostage in the interim they would likely kill you for being English (btw I saw your post slamming the united states; if we weren't in the middle east cleaning up YOUR mess we wouldn't even be having this conversation...) I would likely want fast information so as to be able to better rescue you. Just saying.

Please could you link to my post "slamming the United States"? I don't remember it. Thanks.

A "psychotic form of religious mind virus"? Is that a medical term? These people who use extremism and spout hatred are in a minority. But it is this minority who are played up by the media as being a colossal threat. First off we in the west have to understand Islamic culture and religion and the fact that many of its customs are purely alien to us. I remember reading in a book.....i think it was a Hamas leader talking about killing himself for his religion. The best analogy he could come up with for people in the west was that, imagine being in a hot sauna for a long long time and you are very very hot, but next door there is another room, with a tiled floor, and its cool and peaceful and playing classical music, with food and drink and that you can go to that other room after a while if you choose.

By "YOUR mess" i assume you mean Britain's?

[edit on 14/6/09 by Kram09]

Originally posted by tezzajw
I wonder how she would feel if she was forced to do a centrefold shoot for Penthouse?

See if anyone cares for her right to privacy in that situation.

Moron.

LOL blimey mate I do hope she is never forced into that situation!I personly thinks she should convert to Islam and wear a Burker to do us all a favour

Her surname should be changed too!Hopefully some blind person will marry her and give her another surname!Seeing that pig faced tart with England in here name is the final insult!

The good thing is not many people are going to buy here book,perhaps she should do a pop up kids book with those classic images leaping out of the page

Originally posted by miragezero
Well one thing she said I agree with; if the situation had been reversed those guys would have done 20 times worse to their prisoners. And they have.

I have to disagree there. Maybe there are terrorists out that that would have, but if over 90% were released without charge, then that argument is specious and the last refuge of an amoral person willing to twist space-time into pretzels if it would get her off the hook.

I find it funny how people want to make this out to be some massive conspiracy of some kind its obvious that a soldier working the night shift was sadistic and evil.He was able to talk this stupid girl with absolutely no self worth to do whatever he asked.As she put it she was in love wow. he had his group of friends who thought this was funny apparently but it doesn't have any bearing on the morals of other soldiers who served there.

Obviously when he handed over some photos he took to another soldier and he looked at them he went to his superiors as i would have done in the same circumstances.We would not know of any of this had that not occurred. I served in the military and i will tell you there is no way people i served with would have tolerated this behavior.

The bottom line is we had a sick man manipulating border line retarded soldiers. The only thing i fault the military for here is allowing recruitment standards to fall so low that they allowed this trail park trash in the army!And personally i think the US should look into its standing practice of using reserve troops in combat this i believe was another cause of this issue regular army personnel this is there job and they do it well. Reservists are doing it because there forced to and they did not have the discipline or training to handle the stress, because training 1 weekend a month is nothing like living it 365 days a year!

Sorry if it sounds like I'm ranting but its just ridiculous how much damage a few stupid people can do!

[edit on 6/14/09 by dragonridr]

Whats the difference between me torturing an intruder in my house vs an intruder in our country.
Our country is our house.

We let 'em go, we risk them coming back.
We don't...they won't come back!

Why have any rules in time of war/intrudership?

Originally posted by Angus123

Originally posted by miragezero
Well one thing she said I agree with; if the situation had been reversed those guys would have done 20 times worse to their prisoners. And they have.

I have to disagree there. Maybe there are terrorists out that that would have, but if over 90% were released without charge, then that argument is specious and the last refuge of an amoral person willing to twist space-time into pretzels if it would get her off the hook.

I'm going to put it to you like this... Several years ago I downloaded al qaeda videos from a peer sharing network just to see what was in them. This particular one showed execution of people, westerners and middle easterners alike. I skipped around a lot as I could not stomach it... it was the worst thing I have ever seen in my life. Cruelty and insanity beyond anything I could have thought. I'm not telling you to do this but it will change your perspective. ..so before I rake anyone over the coals for making someone form a human pyramid or even roughing them a bit I kind of think about that. So you want to release some videos? Release those.

We will soon be able to extract information without torture using brain scans etc. As with everything else technology will render this no-win scenario a moot point.

Although the idea of making detainees "Manipulate Themselves" sounds extremely disgusting, you must ask yourself, what was the reason for that particular punishment? What if those forced to succumb to such humiliation were rapists, or were found to have been inappropriately groping the female guards? Would it not, under those particular instances, be an appropriate punishment? Why judge the entirety of a snapshot without the benefit of a full explanation?

As for this particular statement from the "Daily Mail":

I ask her about one of the most chilling pictures, in which seven naked detainees, brought to the block after allegedly taking part in a riot elsewhere in the prison, were forced to form a 'human pyramid'.

After instructing the men to pile up on top of one another, Graner proudly draped his arm around England, and the smiling couple posed beside the grotesque tangle of human flesh.

How is making rioting prisoners assemble themselves into a Pyramid "Chilling"? In the average American Prison, rioting inmates are Gassed and Beaten with Night sticks, sometimes they in fact have K9's stuck on them, so I fail to see how making some terrorists play a children's game in humiliating nudity amounts to "Torture", "Grotesqueness", or "Chilling Displays".

reply to post by dragonridr


"The bottom line is we had a sick man manipulating border line retarded soldiers."

Yes, his name was Dick Cheney, and he was VERY good at manipulating borderline retarded people.

Watch any Presidential speech or press conference and it becomes apparent that it was his specialty.

The soldiers in the prison deserve punishment. But those that initiated all of it were in Washington and deserve to be put on trial.

Originally posted by miragezero

Originally posted by Angus123

Originally posted by miragezero
I'm going to put it to you like this... Several years ago I downloaded al qaeda videos from a peer sharing network just to see what was in them. This particular one showed execution of people, westerners and middle easterners alike. I skipped around a lot as I could not stomach it... it was the worst thing I have ever seen in my life. Cruelty and insanity beyond anything I could have thought. I'm not telling you to do this but it will change your perspective. ..so before I rake anyone over the coals for making someone form a human pyramid or even roughing them a bit I kind of think about that. So you want to release some videos? Release those.

We will soon be able to extract information without torture using brain scans etc. As with everything else technology will render this no-win scenario a moot point.

I understand that. And I respect your courage... I know I couldn't look upon something like that. But my point is that the vast majority of these inmates were totally innocent. We cannot justify anything we do by citing the worst examples of our enemies.

We're supposed to be the good guys.

Originally posted by dragonridr
The bottom line is we had a sick man manipulating border line retarded soldiers. The only thing i fault the military for here is allowing recruitment standards to fall so low that they allowed this trail park trash in the army!And personally i think the US should look into its standing practice of using reserve troops in combat this i believe was another cause of this issue regular army personnel this is there job and they do it well. Reservists are doing it because there forced to and they did not have the discipline or training to handle the stress, because training 1 weekend a month is nothing like living it 365 days a year!

I agree in one regard with certain Reservists, as my Uncle permanently ended his career with the 82nd Airborne due to a bad drop brought about due to some drunken Reservist Pilots. They came in on the weekend, and they were supposed to drop the guys over a field, but they screwed up and dropped them onto a parking lot. Ever since then, my Uncle has had debilitating back problems.

On the other hand...

My Old Man Commanded a Special Operations USNR Unit (While also off and on working at Sperry, where he helped to develop the F/A-18 Training Simulator, LCAC, and more), they were amongst the best in their field, and extremely proficient. They were so good in fact, that they would often receive requests from Theater Commanders (Admirals) for particular assistance from men within his Group/Unit (My father and his guys created and trained the Inshore Undersea Warfare Units going into Cam-Rahn Bay. That aspect alone has actually earned him new friends amongst Vietnam Vets whom he never knew before). He had SEALs, EOD, Specialists (One guy was amongst the best Sonarmen around, while another had Patents with Bell Labs and could CREATE equipment not available through acquisition), and they worked closesly with Marines and Army SpecOps. They are still a unique unit, as they are the ONLY fully commissioned Reserve Unit in the MIL, and they now run under NECC.

I also know some extremely amazing, gung-ho, highly efficient, and professional individuals within the National Guard Community, but again, they are SpecOps (One of them is actually the head of an American Legion Post in WV).


So Yes, I do agree that there might be some problem with this particular MP Unit in question at Abu Ghraib, and some of it might have to do with their lack of Training, Standards, and Motivation, but it most certainly does not reflect upon the Guard and Reservists that I have had the honor of knowing.

[edit on 6-14-2009 by TheAgentNineteen]

reply to post by TheAgentNineteen


There is a difference some units in the reserves take there jobs seriously how ever most just treat it like a second job or a requirement to get college paid for. They look at it as a requirement i did the guard after i got out the discipline was a joke training was laughable and the command structure was non existent. I was quite shocked how i had to teach training on basic stuff that even a person coming out of basic would know. I went into the reserves as an E7 and found out quickly they had no concept of rank. I could go further into this but let me say all the reserves proved to me was a bunch of civilians playing army on the weekend.

reply to post by 8654drp


I still consider "average" intelligence stupid. With as many educational resources as we have available in this country (minus the public school system), there should be no excuse to be as stupid as this woman.

I also consider anyone who would ever let themselves be indoctrinated in to committing such a heinous act like this to be immoral. Whether they were moral or not beforehand is debatable, but the fact that they allowed themselves to be convinced that this was right shows me that they had some deep rooted moral issues.

I agree with everything you said, I think we just differ on our definition of intelligence and morality.