Originally posted by DaisyAnne

Originally posted by Imago Dei

This is an objective fact not a subjective opinion, proven by more than one ex Illuminati high ranking official.

There is no rabbit hole here unless of course you like to burrow holes and lose your self in them. Incidently as an aside, the rabbit hole term comes from Alice in Wonderland an illuminati fairy tale written by a bloke wacked out of his box on acid.

Again, this is an opinion based on what you interpret "Luciferian" to actually mean. As a writer, I am fascinated by stories and by words themselves. They have the meaning that we assign them, and the most powerful meanings are the ones that we assign them subjectively, which we do most of the time, even in the face of cold hard facts.

So, no, I do not think that your opinion can be stated as fact, because it is based upon what you interpret "Luciferian" to mean. And so we go back down the rabbit hole.

In answer to your aside, I know where the term rabbit hole comes from, and I used it within those parameters. Alice In Wonderland is one of my favourite pieces of literature. I think you'll find that most of the great works of literature were written by blokes wacked out of their heads on one thing or another. But, I digress...

Nice response, made me chuckle. The thing is I have discussed Luciferianism with luciferians at length. I know exactly what they believe, why the believe it and the doctrine for their beliefs, which means as a christian I have been able to enter into the realm of appologetics with them, so I can state categorically from an objective standpoint what luciferianism is all about, having said that it appears that your view of the issue is purely subjective so in this case regarding your subjective view of the issue as a writter, I concure with you that your view is intirely subjective and also intirely unsubstantiated which will inevitably lead you down a rabbit hole. Happy burrowing.

On the contrary most of the great works, that are of any real value to mankind, where written by men and women who where quite compes mentis.




[edit on 17-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Originally posted by DaisyAnne
I'm sorry if my initial post was not clear.

Lucifer, in Latin, is a term for the planet Venus. That epithet, Biblically, has been used to refer to King Nebuchadnezzar, and to Jesus himself. It is not a proper name for the Devil.

Satan, as most everyone knows, is a term meaning adversary.

Some proper names for the Devil that have been variously suggested have been Azazel, Samael, and Beliel.

Lucifer as a proper name for the Devil in popular culture is probably thanks to, in part, Milton's Paradise Lost.

Also thanks in part to the misinterpretation of the book of isaiah specifically isaiah 14 where lucifer is also mention but the passage is speaking to the king of babylon not about a fallen angel yet preachers quote this time and time again as his name.

Originally posted by NW111
hey

ok, i dont understand what you really mean too.
there are many names for lucifer.
but:
there is also a difference between Lucifer and Satan.
Lucifer was the first angel, we all know the story guess.
Satan is the "bad" site of god.
Ever thought about that god has also 2 faces?
A good one, called god (or whatever).
And a bad one, called satan (or whatever).

Fact is:
Lucifer is an angel and has nothing to do with the darkness of god.
He is only an fallen angel...
Sorry, but i dont know another name for. There exist many, in every civilisation another name. Here we call him Lucifer.
thats all..

Nia Wind

Language being what it is and complicated and all i must point out here that the word Satan refers to adversary and god according to christian belief in which we are speaking here not something esoteric , cannot be his own adversary. Scriptures state that God is in no way shape or form evil. He created everything according to the belief but he himself is not evil. The answer to the actual use of the word lucifer is correct. The word is a translation from a word used in hebrew in the Torah from Isaiah. Later with the authors of the New Testament and the greek word lucifer in places like revelations refering to Jesus as being the Bright Morning Star. There is no contradiction only one if someone decided to rush into one without researching the origins of the words being translated.

The Morning Star: Jesus or "Lucifer"?


By Dean VanDruff.


The Bright Morning Star goes to the misnomer of "Lucifer", which is an incorrect title for Satan or the Devil taken from the King James Version of Isaiah 14:12. Were it not for this odd transliteration, "Lucifer" would not exist as a term in English, and there would be no confusion on the matter. As it is, we need to be careful, I would suggest, in using the term to describe who the Bible calls "Satan" or "the Devil". Most Christians are onto this, yet still the term "Lucifer" persists. In any case, the "morning star" is the title of Christ throughout the rest of Scripture.
2Pet 1:19 (NIV) And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
Rev 2:28 (NIV) I will also give him the morning star.
Rev 22:16 (NIV) "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."
Since it is clear that Jesus is the "Bright Morning Star" (even said so Himself) then how should we understand Isaiah 14:12?
Isa 14:12-15 (NIV) How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit.
This should be understood as a sardonic title for the "anti-christ" or beast. He claims to be "christ", right? He claims to be Messiah, and has his moment under the sun, but comes to be brought low ultimately. Contrast the real Bright Morning Star: He lives humbly, does not boast, is not arrogant, is submissive to the Father... even unto death. Then the Father raises Him to the highest place; in the morning so to speak.
Mat 23:12 "For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."
Jesus lives out the gospel: death first, resurrection second. Satan wants it all now, and will go down ultimately. Satan looks good at night, but goes down in flames in the morning. Jesus is in the tomb, but arises in the morning. Do you see the pattern? Who is your life most like? What are we encouraging in others, to follow Christ in the gospel, or to grab all you can now? The difference is as wide as Jesus and Satan.
In any case, "Lucifer" means "morning star", so it should not be used to describe Satan. Jesus is The Morning Star. Satan tries to look like Jesus and supplant Him sometime in the future, perhaps very near future, even claming to be Him. But let us understand the deception and that the true "Morning Star" told us this in advance through His Apostles and Prophets; and told us to "watch out".
2Th 2:3-5 (NAS) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
A few more verses on the Morning Star, our Jesus Christ:
Nu 24:17 (NIV) "I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a sceptre will rise out of Israel..."
Mt 2:2 (NIV) and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."
Mt 2:7-10 (NIV) Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him." After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed.
Lu 1:76-79 (NIV) [Zechariah concerning John:] "And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him, to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace."
John 1:7-9 (NIV) He [John] came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Isa 9:2 (NIV) The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.
Mt 4:16 (NIV) "The people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned."
Isa 60:1-2 (NIV) "Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the Lord rises upon you. See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples, but the Lord rises upon you and his glory appears over you."
John 8:12 (NIV) Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Originally posted by Imago Dei


Nice response, made me chuckle. The thing is I have discussed Luciferianism with luciferians at length. I know exactly what they believe, why the believe it and the doctrine for their beliefs, which means as a christian I have been able to enter into the realm of appologetics with them, so I can state categorically from an objective standpoint what luciferianism is all about, having said that it appears that your view of the issue is purely subjective so in this case regarding your subjective view of the issue as a writter, I concure with you that your view is intirely subjective and also intirely unsubstantiated which will inevitably lead you down a rabbit hole. Happy burrowing.

On the contrary most of the great works, that are of any real value to mankind, where written by men and women who where quite compes mentis.




[edit on 17-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

I too have discussed Luciferian thought with many Luciferians, and I have come to find out that the beliefs differ widely depending on who you are talking to. Again, it is subjective. I can see we are not going to be able to reach an understanding on this point, as you are only willing to acknowledge one viewpoint.

Also, I am made slightly uncomfortable by your idea of what works of literature are of real value to mankind. Surely this again, is subjective. What is of no value in your worldview, is likely to be necessary within mine, and vice versa.

I have come across, whilst reading threads here on ATS, many incorrect uses and translations and interpretations of the word "Lucifer."

Mass perception is reality.

If the majority of the people think the world is flat, then for all intents and purposes...it is.

The majority of people equate Lucifer with the Devil, Satan, etc., etc. Your desire for correctness will not change this.

Originally posted by DaisyAnne
The word used in the Hebrew is "Heilel." Translated into the Greek, it is "Eosphoros." It is translated into the Latin as "Lucifer."

The verse in Isajah you refer to is subject to a bunch of misconceptions and mistranslations (ex. KJV). The true meaning of the word Heylel is unknown, but one thing is certain, it doesn't translate into Phosphorus or Lucifer. Simply because Lucifer is the name of the rising Morning star (venus) as it rises above the Sun in the East in the morning. When Venus falls, it is called the Evening Star, and is named Vesper in Latin. Lucifer and Phosphoros has the same meaning (semantics) both as a proper name and as a regular noun. Jesus himself calls himself the "clear and bright Morning Star" i.e. lucifer and he also assume the same role as the Greco-Roman god Lucifer, giving away the Morning Star to "Him who overcomes". The symbol of the Morning Star (or Lucifer) is the fivepointed star or the pentagram. This astrological symbol is infact one of the oldest Christian symbols. Other common astrological symbols used by the early Chrisians to commemorate Jesus were the fish, the lion and the Greek cross.

Originally posted by Gazrok

I have come across, whilst reading threads here on ATS, many incorrect uses and translations and interpretations of the word "Lucifer."

Mass perception is reality.

If the majority of the people think the world is flat, then for all intents and purposes...it is.

The majority of people equate Lucifer with the Devil, Satan, etc., etc. Your desire for correctness will not change this.

So true!
But I believe that perceptions can be changed, and with it, reality!

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Originally posted by DaisyAnne
The word used in the Hebrew is "Heilel." Translated into the Greek, it is "Eosphoros." It is translated into the Latin as "Lucifer."

The verse in Isajah you refer to is subject to a bunch of misconceptions and mistranslations (ex. KJV). The true meaning of the word Heylel is unknown, but one thing is certain, it doesn't translate into Phosphorus or Lucifer. Simply because Lucifer is the name of the rising Morning star (venus) as it rises above the Sun in the East in the morning. When Venus falls, it is called the Evening Star, and is named Vesper in Latin. Lucifer and Phosphoros has the same meaning (semantics) both as a proper name and as a regular noun. Jesus himself calls himself the "clear and bright Morning Star" i.e. lucifer and he also assume the same role as the Greco-Roman god Lucifer, giving away the Morning Star to "Him who overcomes". The symbol of the Morning Star (or Lucifer) is the fivepointed star or the pentagram. This astrological symbol is infact one of the oldest Christian symbols. Other common astrological symbols used by the early Chrisians to commemorate Jesus were the fish, the lion and the Greek cross.

Fascinating post, thank you!
I do find it very interesting that the five pointed star was also a Christian symbol. When I first found that out, I was blown away.

Infact, flashing a Roman cross infront of the early Christians would be like flashing swaztikas in front of Jews after the war. Not very smart, not very wise and also displaying a complete lack of compassion and empathy.

Originally posted by The Riley Family
So the antichrist will appear as Christ himself. The true Christ said many would come in his name claiming to be him. The impostor does likewise and this is why the name jesus adds up to 616.

The j=yod=10, e=niqqud, s=shin=300, u=vav=6, s=shin=300 for a total of 616.

The oldest ms of Revelastion has 616 as the number of the beast instead of 666 as in newer mss. However, the name Jesus isn't Hebrew, Jashuah or Jahoshuah, Josvah etc is, so to use Hebrew geometry on Roman letters of a Greek name of an Aramaic dude. Wow.... I thought I was the crazy one here....