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posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 01:05 AM
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Thank You for setting an excellent example!

I'm 22 now and I WISH my parents had done the same when I was a child. I came into books, and art, and various related things on my own and I'm very driven towards them but if I'd had nothing but that since I was very young, oh my!

Depending on the ages though, I almost wonder if they'll eventually stear away from what they've found for another change of pace or if they'll strive for it more and more.

Well done!




posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 01:20 AM
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reply to post by TurkeyBurgers
 


I wholeheartedly disagree with everything you just said, if AD wants to do that as her means of change, and the impact was an immediately beneficial venue of her children learning from it, reading because of it, and getting them away from the electronic indoctrination and babysitting device, then who the Hell are you to claim that she was practicing bad parenting skills? As a child, I was constantly seeking out the bosom of the electronic visage like the Cable Guy in wanting to do anything other than read, but constantly, I always self-directed back to books, learning, and self-betterment.

I will be thiry-six in five days from this post, I've got more experience in my life than most Government's have had in their first 10 years of existence, just launched my first international non-profit based on civil rights, terror laws, and stalker laws, and all of that, is thanks to reading books, learning from life, and getting away from those types of idiots you described in your rather lowbrow Neaderthal description of "society".

I am literally learning how to change the world through positive influences, instead of just whining, complaining, and being a negative entity on this message board, and what exactly are you doing to change the world, and take it away from the stalkers, pedophiles, and rapists, and financial predators in Washington DC?



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 02:17 AM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


You can deny the fact that this hierarchy exist all you want to. It doesn't change the fact that it is REAL and it dramatically affects childrens life's.

I am not saying books are not an awesome form of entertainment and education. I am not saying that cliques and groups based off wealth or music choice or even sports affiliations are GOOD.

What I am telling you is THEY EXIST!

They WILL affect your child's life. Honestly how many kids in your High School can you think back that were emotionally mature enough to place themselves above social status in school?

It affects everything! Who will talk to you. Where you sit during the popularity contest of lunch time. When children FIRST learn about inter sexual relationships. Who will date them. Bullying. Teasing.

Something as simple as you might consider a T.V. or a PlayStation might seem like small potatoes but I assure you in the world of school politics they mean a great deal.

It is Social Suicide.

No MySpace. No Facebook. (not promoting them just saying they are a huge aspect of childrens society that you might not be aware of due to a gap in your age group)

No internet to help with research assignments.

Oh whats that? You did not realize that you can browse the internet by using the PlayStation?

You were not aware of the Science Channel on T.V.?

You never heard of The Nature Channel?

Huh. Maybe Research would help before irrational decisions are made?



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 02:37 AM
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reply to post by TurkeyBurgers
 





They WILL affect your child's life. Honestly how many kids in your High School can you think back that were emotionally mature enough to place themselves above social status in school?


I am the only person I know, that was mature enough to place myself above the idiotic social status in school, who had sex, drugs, and alcohol pushed towards me, and stood up in the middle of the school bus to tell those same teenagers to get their crap away from me.

They asked, :


"What, you think you're better than us?"


and my answer was at the time, not exaclty a diplomaticly excellent response, in :


"Yes, because I'm not going to Hell like you are".


These types of actions, however, learning to stand on my own two feet and taking my lumps for my beliefs, is exactly how I learned diplomacy, through reading, encounters, and reading constantly.

I read, learned, and lived the Art of War, and turned it into the Art of Peace, for myself.

Yes, the History Channel, Discovery Channel, and countless other television shows, are entertaining, as well as educational, but there's nothing like learning from a book, and then asking your parents questions, which leads back to inter-personal communication skills and strenghtens the family unit.

Yes, the internet, is a good tool to use, but as well, it is an electronic trap to be mentally tied into your computer, to have your every action monitored, tracked, and reported on, since originally it was a military entity, called the ARPAnet.

Later, released to the public, as the internet, as a means to take military doctrine of monitoring activities, and putting them into civilian usage, to spy on everything you read about, research, and who you e-mail.

Know how I know all of that? I read, I read, and I read more and more.

I read online, books at home, go to the library, Barnes and Noble, cross-reference materials, re-check the sources, and basically act like a super-Detective in finding out the answers I want, to the questions I have.

Here's three threads that show how I benefitted, not because of my environment, but in spite of it :

Going To Your Public Library, Gathering Open Source Intelligence, and Surviving

Aliens, the Boogeyman, and Creatures That Go Bump In the Night

Bilderberger : The Global Agenda, Eugenics, Global Warming, And Biochiping Sheeple

[edit on 13-6-2009 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 02:45 AM
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Originally posted by AccessDenied
A week ago, I made a drastic change in my home.
I noticed far too much that my bookshelf was getting dusty, yet the various movies and video games were constantly strewn about the living room.
I noticed my 5 year old daughter would get up in the morning and immediately put on a movie...and the same before she went to bed.
I noticed my kids playing outside and talking with their friends and a lot of the conversations revolved around the movies they watched or video games they played.
I SAID ENOUGH.
I gave it all away.
The TV, the VCR/DVD, the movies..and the video games. ALL OF IT.
I expected mutiny on the bounty.
What I got, was my daughter getting up every morning and reading a book, and the same before bed.
Instead of playing video games, my sons have taken more of an interest in nature, and drawing what they see. My other daughter has taken to writing poetry.
You never really stop and think how much time in your life is taken away by what is deemed "Entertainment".
My kids were turning into zombies...and I couldn't let that happen.
Call me whatever you like, as I'm sure a few will see this as mean parenting..but I prefer the days before "Entertainment" when kids had an imagination when they played, and a generation that was brought up with good family values and a strong work ethic.
Funny, how just over a year ago I met someone who didn't own a TV..and for the life of me I couldn't fathom why. Now, I get it. I really do. You can't live life when you are being distracted away from it.


I see what your intent here is, but there is no reason why there cannot be a balance. Watching informational and interesting videos, or playing nice thought provoking video games, while at the same time letting them be in touch with nature daily, as much as they can be, as well as reading interesting material.

But im not really sure I appreciate your mentality against movies or video games to be honest, its not as simple as it turns you into a zombie... video is simply an extension of words, video games are simply an extension of video, in a sense.

You really shouldn't NEVER allow them to watch any video ever again, remember that some of the most important and informational content in life can be known through video, not just books. Same with video games to an extent...

For example my little cousins often play my PS3, usually with the eyetoy making little video skits and whatnot, but sometimes other games, that they really have fun with, and allow them to sort of appreciate certain things in life at times...

So please, don't be so closed minded to videos or entertainment in general, a lot can be gained in ones life with more than one informational medium.

Wish you the best of life with your children.



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 05:26 AM
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Wow- what a debate this started. Sorry I missed it.
First and foremost, my children are age 12 and under-
no computer as they have no use for it, and those who know me well enough know that my computer time is balanced with research for work, and looking up homeschool assignments for my children.
YES THEY ARE HOMESCHOOLED.
No lunch room discussions ...so no worries.
Turkeyburgers..I'm sorry but I find it amazing that you say taking something away that is so entirely ANTI-SOCIAL, is social suicide. Do you regularly ditch time with friends to watch TV? Good luck with that.
And my children have many friends that they play with, they need not discuss movies or tv to play soccer, or B-ball.
So please, those against what I did..enlighten me with what possible good comes from my children having tv, movies and games?
They sit in front of a square box, oblivious to the world around them for hours.
Yeah..that's great ain't it. Damn..need to tell there friends how exciting that is.
Isn't it better to go out and do things in the real world and discuss THAT with their friends, versus starting every sentence with "Guess what I saw on TV...." To me..it's those that get out there and do stuff are the winners in life, and those that sit around in front of an ENTERTAINMENT box, that are the losers.
Yes, here comes the computer argument.
The internet is a useful tool, yet a scary place.
When it comes to my kids, we use it for research purposes. That is how and why I came to be here, and why I remain here.They do not use it without my presence or assistance.
And quite honestly from what I have seen in the behavior of those in the 18-25 age group, who still act like children,can't keep a job, and have no morals or values, and whose life consists solely around gaming and movies...I made the right choice.

edit to add, for those that think a balance should be made of rewarding them with these things..I say it is a punishment.None of the movies, TV or videogames are going to make them smarter.Nor improve their life in anyway. I see it as wasted time, better spent.

[edit on 13-6-2009 by AccessDenied]



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 05:42 AM
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I played video games, read books, painted pictures and went out to play, why not all those things?

I don't see much wrong with playing video games, it's just an advanced book in a way, because that's what books are for, entertainment!

I see why you did this, I've seen this zombie phase, I've even been like this a couple of times, but I think that's when somebody gets too addicted to something, EVEN books.

I say keep giving them "different" things to have fun with and learn from, so they can experience all sides of life including the good fun video games, which are actually one of my fondest childhood memories. Such imaginative games as Zelda, final fantasy etc really did OPEN my imagination to many things, I got really interested in the art, the stories about love, friendship etc


Not a waste of time for me, also why are you fine with them reading a book for hours instead, it's basically the same thing.

I think there should be a balance, and banning them of such everyday things might be getting too close to over the edge, and when they become teenagers, well you might have a problem.

But in the end it's all about family, always take them places, always remind them of good family fun, things you can all do together, so they can appreciate "family"

Good luck!




[edit on 13-6-2009 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 05:53 AM
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reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


Thank you Phoenix, and yes agreed, books can be addicting too.
Just adding in here, for those that read my opening post, I stated that just over a year ago I met someone who didn't own a TV....Wanna know what that person did with their time?

Aside from holding a full time job at a youth facility, this person traveled around the world, teaching English in China, surfing in Hawaii, bicycle tour of Germany, got a pilot's license for both plane and helicopter,and Road trip of the United States. This person had every sport equipment known to man....
bike, roller blades, skis, snowboard, kayak, wind sail board....you name it....
Favorite pastime though..frisbee on the beach.
YOU can't experience life in front of a box in your living room. PERIOD.


CX

posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 05:57 AM
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I can relate to the actions taken by the OP, in that i have been seriously debating this for a while now.

I have Sky, and i have the internet (obviously). My girls are 10 and 11.

There is so much rubbish on tv for kids these days, i just read this post to my little one and at first she raised her eyebrows at the prospect of no tv, then she said, "The kids programmes are pretty boring nowadays".

She is talking about the typical kids entertainment like Hannah Montanna and the likes. The kids just sit there watching the same rubbish over and over again given the chance. Thats just it though...if they are given the chance.

There are also a lot of great documentaries on tv and my kids have learnt so much from that. I know you can get that on the net too, but i see no difference in watching on a smaller screen....except the picture quality is worse.

If your kids are young like mine or especially the OP's, you have the good fortune of being able to guide them or limit the tv or net.

Both my kids have email, and the eldest has just discovered MSN


This is strictly limited and monitored at all times. It did get to a point where it was becoming addictive, in that she would get in a real strop if she couldn't use it, so that got nipped in the bud right away.

We have weekends where i say the tv's busted....i'll have taken a fuse out so they can't test it lol....so we spend our time out and abaout instead and they don't bat an eyelid.

Thats the secret, get your kids out if you can. Mine will fight like cat and dog inside, yet when we step outside to have fun in the woods, not a peep out of them except fun and laughter.

I think i may phone Sky today and cancel everything except news and documentaries. Theres still more than enough for the kids to learn from on there.

Although i think it's great what the OP has done, i think there is a lot to be learned from tv still, so wouldn't want the kids to miss out like that.

It's the parents choice though at the end of the day. They have the ability to restrict these things to a fine and healthy balance....it's just that many don't bother.

All that said, i feel that to take it all away restricts learning. In this day and age of such excellent technological advancements, i wouldn't want to let my kids grow up without any knowledge of that. You just can't teach those sort of things from home on your own.

CX.



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 05:59 AM
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reply to post by AccessDenied
 


I got your U2U, AD, and to add one more relevant thing to my points of opinion on here.

I was both publicly schooled, and homeschooled.

While I hated both, with a vengeance, homeschool, ended up being the better one.



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 06:01 AM
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reply to post by AccessDenied
 


Well good for him, but I don't see why not just have a tv too haha, but really I barely watch tv myself, if something interests me I watch it on dvd or on the internet.

But seriously if your kids will enjoy life without tv and games, then that's great, let's hope they will not grow up and hate this fact. And instead love the time hopefully well spent.

Oh yeah one more point we have to remember, we are living in times of great change, especially in technology, the future will focus more and more on this subject, missing out on these things might not be such a good thing when the world revolves around such things so much.

e.g imagine someone not knowing what a computer is, they have quite a bit of catching up to do if they want to experience such things for example.

[edit on 13-6-2009 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 07:14 AM
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You know, I understand as a parent your concerns about video games and movies, but did you ever think that maybe it's the type of video game/movie/TV shows you're allowing your children to watch that may be the "problem?" I grew up on video games, and firmly believe they have shaped my way of logical thinking and critical problem-solving techniques. I'm always looking for alternative solutions to problems, and this is from video games. Instead of your child playing "Barbie Horses," perhaps you should allow them to play TETRIS, and more of the puzzle games. What movies is your daughter watching that you are so against? You're the one purchasing these to begin with, so you're part of the issue, don't you think? You can allow them to watch classics, and educational TV. I became incredibly interested in the universe and what is now my fundamental belief system simply by watching the History channel and other education, informative TV shows.
As a child, I DID play outside quite a bit, as well, though, and understand this is a necessity in growth, but I do think the "distractions" still broaden the mind, and are equally important.

I scrolled up and read your post about your child being 12 and homeschooled. Don't you think you're robbing her of basic social interaction? You can't shelter her, and she needs social interaction. She needs both good and bad influences in her life, that way she can determine what's "right" and "wrong" based on personal experience. Even at 12, she needs some kind of life experiences.

[edit on 13-6-2009 by physicalbeing]



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 07:22 AM
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Shall we vote?

YOU GET AN AWARD.

Personally, I don't have anything besides a TV WITHOUT cable and Internet access.

Which I think are AT LEAST the necessities.

Xbox? Wii? Gameboys?

COME ON.

I love reading. I think there is no greater movie than the movie that your imagination creates and directs whilst reading vivid descriptions from fantastic authors.



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 07:27 AM
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Originally posted by physicalbeing
You know, I understand as a parent your concerns about video games and movies, but did you ever think that maybe it's the type of video game/movie/TV shows you're allowing your children to watch that may be the "problem?" I grew up on video games, and firmly believe they have shaped my way of logical thinking and critical problem-solving techniques. I'm always looking for alternative solutions to problems, and this is from video games. Instead of your child playing "Barbie Horses," perhaps you should allow them to play TETRIS, and more of the puzzle games. What movies is your daughter watching that you are so against? You're the one purchasing these to begin with, so you're part of the issue, don't you think? You can allow them to watch classics, and educational TV. I became incredibly interested in the universe and what is now my fundamental belief system simply by watching the History channel and other education, informative TV shows.
As a child, I DID play outside quite a bit, as well, though, and understand this is a necessity in growth, but I do think the "distractions" still broaden the mind, and are equally important.

I scrolled up and read your post about your child being 12 and homeschooled. Don't you think you're robbing her of basic social interaction? You can't shelter her, and she needs social interaction. She needs both good and bad influences in her life, that way she can determine what's "right" and "wrong" based on personal experience. Even at 12, she needs some kind of life experiences.

[edit on 13-6-2009 by physicalbeing]



I see a lot of argument here that bears the feeling of "OMG! you don't want your kids to be like everyone else?" Coming from a site like this..NO..I DON"T. I want them to be BETTER. Yes, there are informative tv channels and shows but they are linked to those that are junk.
Wow..I take away the TV, and get accused of allowing my children to watch the wrong things, and depriving my 12 year old of a social life.
That's rich.
An education is the right of a child to have, so is a social life, but the two do not need to be mixed, or occur simultaneously to be affective.
And where the hell did I post the my kids have no friends or social interaction?
I have half a dozen knocks on my door daily from those 13 & under who beg to differ that.
Let's not turn this into a home school versus public school debate..it's not the original topic..and once started I get very passionate about my choice.



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 07:35 AM
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lol... I'm saying this because my parents tried doing that to me growing up. What did I do? Rebelled. I had sex at your daughter's age as a mean to "act out." I needed to entertain myself after reading, so I'd sneak out..even if we didn't do anything "bad," and just hung out at the park across the street, it was still putting myself in potentially dangerous situations.
Believe me, my friends and I were not like "everyone else," and maybe that was kind of the problem. We weren't spoiled. We weren't part of any kind of "clique." We were the smart, "creative," and "different." Sure, we had older friends, which could have had a different kind of influence, but it forced us to grow up faster, think more critically, and explore options. Being an outcast does have its benefits, but you need to think about the long-term effects it can have on her life. At 12, it's important for her to get the sense of "belonging" to something- groups, cliques, whatever it may be. Just because you don't see the dire need for TV and movies, your daughter appreciates the art behind it. Why deprive her of that? Don't push your beliefs on her...she'll only resent you in the end.



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 07:40 AM
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Call me whatever you like, as I'm sure a few will see this as mean parenting..but I prefer the days before "Entertainment" when kids had an imagination when they played, and a generation that was brought up with good family values and a strong work ethic.


How DARE you!

How dare you step up, be a responsible parent, instill values in your child, help them develop into mature responsible people in society!

How dare you encourage the arts, literacy and self improvement in your kids lives!

How could you foster a sense of hope and intelligence in your kids future?

Good job mom



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 08:25 AM
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Personally, I don't think adults can take a part in this discussion.

I am 17 (almost) so I will put myself in the top end of ages suitable of answering the subject at hand.


People can argue "We didn't have all these channels or videos games in my day, and we turned out fine." But there you highlight your own biggest problem. "WE didn't have"; collectively a large protion of people 'didn't have' so life was different back then. I remember before DVDS came out, people didn't watch as many films because the videos took more time and space, but they came out when I was very young and I moved with the times, and still don't get how my parents watch so few films.

Life changes VERY quickly.

I have a computer with internet in my room, an xbox 360 in my room, virgin(similar to sky) in my room, (my own box separate from the other rooms of the house), as well as books in my room. What do I want to do for a job, firefighter if I can, but I intend to go to university for media studies and possibly follow that as a career instead.


Oh, yes, all those hours watching tv actually benefitted me, they could tbe the basis of my future career, all those 'mindless' shows could be my job.

But I still read, I would still rather hang out with friends than watch tv or sit on the computer, I generally play the xbox online with friends from shcool, and if my computer is on my msn is on where I speak to friends from school. When watching tv, if I am not also on MSN at the time, I can talk about what I watched the next day, often documentaries, often not. You can NOT say that television is anti-social.



I know you are trying to be a good parent, and I am not claiming you arn't because you are doing what 'you' think is right, and should not be balmed for that. But she is not growing up into the same world you did, the wrold is very different from when you were a child, and well be very different than it is now when she is grown up. Media media media, everything is going media crazy. News, entertainment, music, education....media media media. And you are taking that away from her... Personally I do not agree with that and I think it is wrong. I also find it hypocritical that you let her read books, when books and television do exactly the same thing, in different formats. They entertain, educate or both. They are just as 'anti-social' as television is in the form that you are unlikely to talk to someone whilst reading or wathcing television; though as I stated, I often use MSN to talk whilst my television is on, or talk if watching television with other people... this does not happen when I read a book, I become encapsulated until it's finished, I don't talk to anyone whilst reading.

I also find reading educational books terribly boring, yet can watch a documentary on the same topic fine. Which brings me to another point, some people will simply learn better form a documentary that a book, by rmeoving the television you may possibly (thougth I don't know your daughter of course) be removing something which will turn out to be an easier way of learning for her.


Lets look at games consoles, now your child is a bit young for online gaming I shall admit. BUT, once you reach a suitable age for that, not only can it be used to talk to friends, it is a huge team building tool. I was rather a loner, I shall admit, I liked (and still do) to do stuff by myself. Then I got the game call of duty 4, and I played an online mode with two friends called 'team tactical' which comprised of two teams, each with three people and differing goals. Now as I played with my two friends I always ended up on the same team as them, at first we were terrible and always lost, but by the end of our days playing that game, we almost never lost a match, people knew who we were before we played them and occasionally actually left before the game started as they did not want to lose. Now when we moved onto another game, we once again found that when playing with other people, it was a slow start, but as soon as we played together again we won. Now you can not tell me that being able to wrok as a team is a bad thing, but it took the xbox to teach me that. And yes, before then I had until very recently spent hours upon hours building 'bases' in the woods with my friends; but we all had our specific jobs, one always built, I always collected (because I am a fool and would do stupid things to get what we needed
) , and a third milled between the two if we needed help. So we worked together, in a team of sorts, but on the xbox, we learnt to wrok in an environment where we could all do the same things, where no one of us was so much better at one aspect that they should clearly do it, we learnt to take it in turns, to adapt. That surely can not be a bad thing.


No longer are we in the days where a video game is running away from ghosts eating yellow balls all by yourself.

Also may I ask you a question, have you ever watched a youtube video for fun, used the internet to find or buy music, read a forum post that wasn't research or about an educational topic such as this (i.e something similar to a post on the BTS forum), generally used the computer in ANY form for entertainment? If not, then the below does not apply to you, if you have then read this next paragraph.

How can you deny your children their entertainment, yet keep your own? Can you not see the hypocrisy? 'It's okay, mummy can use the internet and have fun all by herself on it, but you can't watch television and have fun.' over the top
But can you see my point?


Media is the future, not books I'm afraid, and you are cutting that off.


I THINK I have covered everything I wanted to, but I may need to edit the post, and of course, any questions or anything I shall answer.



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by physicalbeing
lol... I'm saying this because my parents tried doing that to me growing up. What did I do? Rebelled. I had sex at your daughter's age as a mean to "act out." I needed to entertain myself after reading, so I'd sneak out..even if we didn't do anything "bad," and just hung out at the park across the street, it was still putting myself in potentially dangerous situations.
Believe me, my friends and I were not like "everyone else," and maybe that was kind of the problem. We weren't spoiled. We weren't part of any kind of "clique." We were the smart, "creative," and "different." Sure, we had older friends, which could have had a different kind of influence, but it forced us to grow up faster, think more critically, and explore options. Being an outcast does have its benefits, but you need to think about the long-term effects it can have on her life. At 12, it's important for her to get the sense of "belonging" to something- groups, cliques, whatever it may be. Just because you don't see the dire need for TV and movies, your daughter appreciates the art behind it. Why deprive her of that? Don't push your beliefs on her...she'll only resent you in the end.


My you sound like you know my daughter quite well. You don't. As for her sense of belonging she has a group of 5 friends that she hangs out with AFTER SCHOOL hours..sleepovers, trips to the mall, camping, and horseback riding. Please don't put me in a position to defend my parenting to you.I won't.
As for your period of "acting out" as a child..so did I. Left alone by a working single mom with only a TV for company..I acted out too.
And I have older children as well, out on their own....they act as role models for my younger children,and they don't own TV's either. They actually go out and do stuff..you know..with other people?
What a concept.



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 09:58 AM
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reply to post by StevenDye
 



How can you deny your children their entertainment, yet keep your own? Can you not see the hypocrisy? 'It's okay, mummy can use the internet and have fun all by herself on it, but you can't watch television and have fun.' over the top But can you see my point?


Ok..go back and read EVERYTHING I wrote, then re-read what I just quoted here.
My kids are 12 and under...what EXACTLY is it you feel they need to be doing on the internet unsupervised, which I do allow them? Never once stated I took that away. Try reading more.
Iam completely AMAZED by the comparison that watching TV=Social+Fun

Ya'll need to get a life.
Now..if you'll excuse me..it's a gorgeous day outside, and I'm taking my kids to the park. You know ..THE PARK..where there is OTHER KIDS..HAVING FUN..WITH NO TV.
Freakin wow.


[edit on 13-6-2009 by AccessDenied]



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 10:12 AM
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reply to post by AccessDenied
 



Now..if you'll excuse me..it's a gorgeous day outside, and I'm taking my kids to the park. You know ..THE PARK..where there is OTHER KIDS..HAVING FUN..WITH NO TV.
Freakin wow.


EEP! OUTSIDE! Don't you know whats out there? Tall poles with green stuff on em, large bipedal primates that have some odd form of communication that relies on a series of grunts and sounds. More green stuff on the floor. No working a/c or heat, and most shockingly of all NO CEILING!

Oh the HUMANITY of it all AD!





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