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Reasonable penalties?

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posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 09:34 PM
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reply to post by Donnie Darko
 


It's not sympathy. The difference is violence. Fraud is wrong and anyone guilty of it should give up a significant amount of their life, but there is no violent component to the crime. Society must punish violent offenders more severely than those guilty of non-violent crimes, otherwise the message we send out is...




posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
And some of the people who are defrauded can't recover.

Take identity theft. Having that happen to you causes a lot of the same traumas as rape. Your security is taken away, it is much harder to enjoy life, you have to go through all the legal trouble.

It is not just money, and it is not only rich people that are defrauded. It is an act of emotional violence.


Again, this is BS. I have been a victim of identity theft. Other than the hours and hours I spent on the phone working to correct it, it did not change anything about my life.

To compare that to rape and/or molestation of a child is disgusting and offensive.

You are still trying to compare a material crime to a physical/emotional one.

[edit on 6/12/2009 by cautiouslypessimistic]


Everyone takes things differently. I have been sexually groped before ... it was uncomfortable and I was upset, but I felt better after a couple days.

Some people would take it way harder of course, but to me, it's not like being stabbed or something.

If someone had my ID for years though, I would be very distressed! It is DEFINITELY more than a material crime. Who knows what they are doing in your name!

[edit on 12-6-2009 by Donnie Darko]



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 09:36 PM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by Donnie Darko
 


It's not sympathy. The difference is violence. Fraud is wrong and anyone guilty of it should give up a significant amount of their life, but there is no violent component to the crime. Society must punish violent offenders more severely than those guilty of non-violent crimes, otherwise the message we send out is...


What I'm saying is the lines blur. Molestation can be extremely emotionally damaging and not be physically violent at all. I do think crimes towards people should be punished more than crimes toward property though.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 09:40 PM
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Originally posted by Donnie Darko

Everyone takes things differently. I have been sexually groped before ... it was uncomfortable and I was upset, but I felt better after a couple days.


And what if instead of being groped, you had been anally raped, would it have taken just a few days for you to "feel better"???

Ask yourself this question: If you had to chose between having some stock broker or financial planner steal all your money or being sodomized, which one would you chose?



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts

Originally posted by Donnie Darko

Everyone takes things differently. I have been sexually groped before ... it was uncomfortable and I was upset, but I felt better after a couple days.


And what if instead of being groped, you had been anally raped, would it have taken just a few days for you to "feel better"???

Ask yourself this question: If you had to chose between having some stock broker or financial planner steal all your money or being sodomized, which one would you chose?


It would depend how much money it was.

With my current bankroll? I'd definitely take the fraud, lol.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by Donnie Darko
What I'm saying is the lines blur. Molestation can be extremely emotionally damaging and not be physically violent at all. I do think crimes towards people should be punished more than crimes toward property though.


Now you are backpedaling and contradicting yourself. On page one of this thread you stated:


Worse than screwing over the lives of thousands of people? Taking away everything they own and possibly driving them to suicide?


And I don't care how much money I had, I would rather be swindled out of every dime than be raped or have my kid molested! Definitely NOT LOL!



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 09:51 PM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
What I'm saying is the lines blur. Molestation can be extremely emotionally damaging and not be physically violent at all. I do think crimes towards people should be punished more than crimes toward property though.


Now you are backpedaling and contradicting yourself. On page one of this thread you stated:


Worse than screwing over the lives of thousands of people? Taking away everything they own and possibly driving them to suicide?


And I don't care how much money I had, I would rather be swindled out of every dime than be raped or have my kid molested! Definitely NOT LOL!


In this case though the crime against property is so severe it becomes a crime against the person. Like arson.

Child molesters suck, but to me they're on the same level as gang members. People like Madoff are on the same level as the people who lit the Australian bushfires earlier this year.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 09:53 PM
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And I don't care how much money I had, I would rather be swindled out of every dime than be raped or have my kid molested! Definitely NOT LOL!


Oh I would give up every dime to protect my kid if I had one! I was only speaking for myself!



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 10:15 PM
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reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 


You guys are arguing macro vs. micro.

It is absolutely terrible when a child is molested or a woman or man raped. However, each of those crimes are micro crimes in a social sense (micro as in having a very limited effect upon society).

Corporate fraud, on the other hand, is macro: it effects very large numbers of people and has broad social implications. Bernie Madoff didn't just rip off individuals, he ripped off institutions that held money for those individuals' retirements. Many of those people are now destitute and old, too old to replenish what was stolen from them through either work or investment. Many of those people will die much earlier than they otherwise would, because they can no longer afford healthcare and medicines. And while they are struggling to survive, guess who has to pick up the tab for their much poorer, but more expensive healthcare? Taxpayers, that's who. And because that burden has been shifted, things that need doing aren't done for lack of funds. This sort of behavior directly kills many people through immediate lack of food, shelter, and medicine, while indirectly many many times more through social deprivations.

So on the individual scale rape and molestation are trully horrendous and terrible crimes, but fairly meaningless on a broader social scale (I'm not being heartless or unfeeling here, just analytical), while corporate crime is significant on a much broader scale and can weaken the entire nation and expose entire populations to much deeper, longer-lasting, and far more profound dangers whose effects can last for generations.

So I'm afraid I have to speak for much harsher penalties for corporate crime as the recidivism rate is far higher for them than sex offenders. Corporate criminals don't change much other than the name or type of scam they run: they rarely if ever become ethical when caught, and usually simply change corporate addresses. Personally, I favor the death penalty for major corporate crimes like Love Canal, Enron, and the CDO/CDS scams currently perpetrated by GoldmanSachs and their ilk.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 10:23 PM
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I think people just don't care as much about Madoff's crimes because they mostly impacted adults (though I'm 100% sure they also hurt kids in some way or another).



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 10:25 PM
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I think it is pretty naive to think that child molestation is a crime against one person.

A crime like that resonates. It affects that child through their entire life and everyone they come in contact with.

I get the feeling you dont have the foggiest idea of the impact of child molestation.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 10:29 PM
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Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic
I think it is pretty naive to think that child molestation is a crime against one person.

A crime like that resonates. It affects that child through their entire life and everyone they come in contact with.

I get the feeling you dont have the foggiest idea of the impact of child molestation.



Actually I do. My stepbrothers were all molested by their father in horrible ways.

The oldest one, who got it the longest, is basically ruined. He is in jail and has a brain tumor, probably from the stress. It is very sad.

The other two though have major problems but are still very much functioning people. Of course the crime resonates, but it doesn't resonate as much as a murder.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by Donnie Darko

Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic
I think it is pretty naive to think that child molestation is a crime against one person.

A crime like that resonates. It affects that child through their entire life and everyone they come in contact with.

I get the feeling you dont have the foggiest idea of the impact of child molestation.



Actually I do. My stepbrothers were all molested by their father in horrible ways.

The oldest one, who got it the longest, is basically ruined. He is in jail and has a brain tumor, probably from the stress. It is very sad.

The other two though have major problems but are still very much functioning people. Of course the crime resonates, but it doesn't resonate as much as a murder.


Victims of child molestation are exponentially more likely to become molestors themselves. How many murder victims go on to commit murder? Just curious.

And again, I'm not arguing that it is worse than murder. I am arguing that it is worse than monetary fraud.

[edit on 6/12/2009 by cautiouslypessimistic]



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 10:33 PM
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Hmmmm. I agree that the crime of molestation is worse than fraud as a general statement.

But I do not think Bernard Madoff is a better man than the people on To Catch a Predator. He is way worse.

[edit on 12-6-2009 by Donnie Darko]



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 10:37 PM
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How about I change "Corporate fraud" to "Large-scale, systematic corporate fraud"?



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by Donnie Darko
Hmmmm. I agree that the crime of molestation is worse than fraud as a general statement.

But I do not think Bernard Madoff is a better man than the people on To Catch a Predator. He is way worse.

[edit on 12-6-2009 by Donnie Darko]


I think that if you think "to catch a predator" or whatever shows true molestors than you are sorely mistaken.

Think about infants being pinned down and sodomized. Think of a 10 year old with foreign object being shoved into their anus. Think for children forced to perform oral sex on an adult.

Still feel the same?



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 10:40 PM
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reply to post by apacheman
 


I am not arguing macro vs. micro, I am arguing violent vs. non-violent. If we released Madoff and moved him in on one side of you and put a violent criminal on the other side of you, I'll bet you would spend your time watching the violent neighbor. Violent offenders are a much larger threat to society, even if they only affect one person at a time.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by cautiouslypessimistic

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
Hmmmm. I agree that the crime of molestation is worse than fraud as a general statement.

But I do not think Bernard Madoff is a better man than the people on To Catch a Predator. He is way worse.

[edit on 12-6-2009 by Donnie Darko]


I think that if you think "to catch a predator" or whatever shows true molestors than you are sorely mistaken.

Think about infants being pinned down and sodomized. Think of a 10 year old with foreign object being shoved into their anus. Think for children forced to perform oral sex on an adult.

Still feel the same?


Ah okay I see what you mean. I thought you meant any creepy old man should be gassed or something like that.

Yeah I know first-hand about that. I wouldn't say it's as bad as murder, but it's probably like a third as bad, yes, and takes an equally sick individual.

I think parents who beat their kids, and I don't mean spank, though I disapprove of that too, I mean like smack the crap out of, are just as bad as child molesters.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 10:48 PM
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The penalties for child molestation and abuse, in most cases is ridiculous.

Here's a good one.


Charles "Ebony" Horton was tried for and pleaded guilty to kidnapping, assault with intent to rape a child under 16, indecent assault and battery on a child under 14, assault and battery, and assault and battery by means of a dangerous weapon. Horton, while dressed as a woman, used a ruse to lead an 11-year old boy to an abandoned warehouse where he forced to the boy to simulate sex acts after holding a screwdriver to the child's neck. During the sentencing phase of the trial, Suffolk County District Attorney David Deakin who had asked Lopez to give Horton an eight to ten year jail sentence, tried to protest her decision to sentence Horton to house arrest and five years' of probation.


From Wikipedia

What's that? You raped a little kid? Go to your room.


[edit on 12-6-2009 by KEMIK]



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 10:57 PM
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Originally posted by KEMIK
The penalties for child molestation and abuse, in most cases is ridiculous.

Here's a good one.


Charles "Ebony" Horton was tried for and pleaded guilty to kidnapping, assault with intent to rape a child under 16, indecent assault and battery on a child under 14, assault and battery, and assault and battery by means of a dangerous weapon. Horton, while dressed as a woman, used a ruse to lead an 11-year old boy to an abandoned warehouse where he forced to the boy to simulate sex acts after holding a screwdriver to the child's neck. During the sentencing phase of the trial, Suffolk County District Attorney David Deakin who had asked Lopez to give Horton an eight to ten year jail sentence, tried to protest her decision to sentence Horton to house arrest and five years' of probation.


From Wikipedia

What's that? You raped a little kid? Go to your room.


[edit on 12-6-2009 by KEMIK]


You know, there is a middle road. Life in jail for scum like that.

It's ridiculous to slap them on the wrist. It's also wrong to kill them.



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