It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Greece 'would refuse Marble loan'

page: 1
1
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 07:07 AM
link   

Greece 'would refuse Marble loan'




Greece would not accept a short loan of the Parthenon Marbles from the British Museum as it would "legalise their snatching", the Culture Minister said.
Antonis Samaras said any loan would mean renouncing Greece's claim to the 2,500-year-old sculptures.
The Marbles, also known as the Elgin Marbles, have been in London since they were sold to the museum in 1817.
Greece hopes one day to display the collection in the Acropolis Museum, which opens in Athens next weekend.
The Marbles originally decorated the Parthenon temple on the Acropolis of Athens.
Hundreds of sculptures were removed from the Parthenon in 1801-2 on the orders of British aristocrat Lord Elgin, who later sold them to British Museum.
The museum holds 75 metres of the original 160 metres of the frieze that ran round the inner core of the building.
Of the surviving items some 90 are in London and 97 in Athens. In many cases, part of a figure is in London, and part in Athens.
Copies of those held in London have been made for the new Acropolis museum


[edit on 12-6-2009 by tristar]




posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 07:24 AM
link   
I guess they board members from the museum think that there living back in the 1800's when they were stolen. The arrogance and small minded members should perhaps take a breath of Oxygen on the off chance that would stimulate some braincells.

But then again, they are fully aware of the implications of such a move, as it would create a flood of requests and demands from across the world. Its obvious to who ever has visited the Museum of London that unfortunately most of the displayed items are from across the world.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 08:49 AM
link   
Were the marbles taken 20 or so years ago I might agree but at 200 years there comes a point where it’s futile to dispute it. The circumstances were also quite exceptional, and to say they were literally stolen is debatable at best but certainly a very simplistic way of expressing what actually happened.

Most major world museums have significant exhibits from over seas, not all on loan, including The National Archaeological Museum in Athens which includes artefacts from surrounding nations. What right do they have to them if the marbles should be sent back to Greece?

At the end of the day the actions of those long since dead are not ours to atone for, the losses and gains of which are merely a fact of history and no obligation can be put upon anyone today to redress the actions of their ancestors. That goes for territory won or lost in centuries old wars as well as it does for acquisitions made 200 years ago.

If you disagree, can we have America back please?



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 08:54 AM
link   
Hi Tristar/

I believe Greece rightfully owns these artifacts as it is Greek Heritage and not British!
The artifacts belong in their home.
Many other countries have returned missing pieces of centuries old(as *stated in the article)Why can't Britain do the same?
As should other countries that have stolen...
quote///The official stance of the Greek government for the return of the Marbles:www.yppo.gr...#
(Article-Paris, October 18, 2007)

I find this peculiar as the British people supports the 'marbles' be brought back to Greece.
The British museum disagree as does the British Government.

quote///''They mention the UNESCO resolutions on the promotion and protection of cultural heritage.''

helen

EDIT...*sated for correct spelling of Stated!


[edit on 6/12/2009 by helen670]
EDIT...British....for Britain's

[edit on 6/12/2009 by helen670]



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 09:56 AM
link   
reply to post by Mike_A
 


I guess the reason why Egypt and Italy have also returned artifacts is because they are stupid, or is it because a culture cannot be bought or sold, it is something a country and its citizen's earn through the test of time and makes that particular culture stand out from many other civilizations. Given that even before the Roman empire ever existed there was a civilization who had shown the world would you now call "Democracy".
We often here the term knowledge is power, were do you believe that term was derived from ?

The exchange of looted ancient artifacts has been well underway since the 70's with huge success. That involves from private collections which were obtained by similar methods as the British had obtain. Ultimately it comes down to if you have no culture dating prior to 2000 BC then i guess you must pillage or buy your way into making your citizens believe that they are a part of history.

What surprises me is that culture is developed through time and not through the power of currency. As all empires ultimately fall so to do the ideas of trying to hold onto a piece of history which does not rightfully belong to you or anyone else.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 11:33 AM
link   
The problem with the idea of the whole british public supporting the marbles going back helen670 is that like mike_a said they dont see the circumstances in which they had to be taken in the first place.

If they had not have been taken there would have been a chance that they might have been destroyed and so there would be nothing left for the greeks to ask for back.

And while it is part of Greece's history it is now part of ours because they artifacts have been with us for so long now.

There is also a bigger worldwide problem that comes with these artifacts, for if these artifacts did go back (which personally i can not see ever happening), then every country would want artifacts that were 'stolen' from them back would they not? and what would happen then?



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 01:07 PM
link   
reply to post by twistedgel
 


Hi/
I Understand your point of view.
///What would happen then?
All would be back in order?


helen

Let me add though,would it not be nice for once in this worlds History,for someone to be nice to Greece, rather then go against them?
Don't matter...



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 01:33 PM
link   
reply to post by twistedgel
 




The problem with the idea of the whole british public supporting the marbles going back helen670 is that like mike_a said they dont see the circumstances in which they had to be taken in the first place.


Circumstances, sure they do and are well documented, as the ottoman empire was crumbling under the revolution, the sultan ordered the destruction of the Acropolis as punishment, so he hired Elgin to dissect the Acropolis. Which were then sold to the British and both the Sultan and Elgin made there relevant profits.



If they had not have been taken there would have been a chance that they might have been destroyed and so there would be nothing left for the greeks to ask for back.


As the revolution had entered and was fighting its last battle within and around Athens, the ottoman soldiers had barricaded themselves at the highest point of the city which was the Acropolis, thinking that the Greeks would not dare attack them for fear of destruction of their monument. However into the night they begun attacking, the siege lasted that long that Turks begun breaking the Acropolis in order to use the lead to create the bullets. What resulted then was what separates a modern culture form the philosophy of Greek mentality. The Greeks stopped the attack and begun moving led to the Turks so they could save the Acropolis from its destruction. This is and was the determination of that culture which spans thousands of years. What you see now as a partial Acropolis was due to the destruction from the Turkish soldiers and not from the Greeks. Thought i should mention that and clarify a quick history moment.



And while it is part of Greece's history it is now part of ours because they artifacts have been with us for so long now.


The time slot you are referring to is from 1801+, so i guess a 2500+ years has no weight compared to 208 years. I think you should think more in the realm of rational and logic rather than emotional. What the Greek government has said, is that they belong to Greece without any insulting guidelines as the London has suggested and if and when the London museum requests them or other artifacts they can be asked upon.

This exact same thing applies between Italy, Egypt, France, Germany, and way too many other nations to mention.



There is also a bigger worldwide problem that comes with these artifacts, for if these artifacts did go back (which personally i can not see ever happening), then every country would want artifacts that were 'stolen' from them back would they not? and what would happen then?


On the contrary, it is only a matter of time when they will be forced to hand them over as the Museums boards initial and constant changing of views and ideas has forced them into there own small isolated corner within the archeological community. The close minded thinking of what you mentioned as, if we give them back then we have nothing, is exactly what other nations with even poorer history have over come by asking to borrow for lengths of time various artifacts. This process has been widely accepted throughout the world. Its just the narrow minded board members are afraid of loosing the revenue rather than looking at it as a world cultural interaction. This is the problem, one side see it purely as money the other side sees it as it's property and major extension of its culture.

As a nation which has been conquered and liberated itself over thousands of years stands testimony alone to its cultural ideology and determination which has earned a seat in the time line of mans evolution in all aspects of knowledge.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 01:34 PM
link   
reply to post by tristar
 


It would be the start of a giant domino effect -- Treasures returned to Egypt, Greece, Italy, etc. and such. The truth is, these items are probably safer in England. And there has to be a statute of limitations for everything. I think the statute has run in this instance.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 03:22 PM
link   
So why do Greek museums hold on to Egyptian artefacts? If we’re going on the principle that only artefacts found in ones own country can be held then every major museum must be emptied and its displays repatriated; that goes for Greek museums as well. I won’t support the Elgin Marbles being sent back to Greece so long as Greek museums retain other nation’s property (not that I think they are now other nations property).

You can’t pick and choose and say these marbles must come home but we’ll hold on to this Egyptian bust because erm, well, we like it.

We either do it wholesale or not at all, regardless of whether some individuals or establishments have made exchanges or not.

As I also alluded to, to what extent do we take this? Are items discovered through foreign funds and labour ok or do they have to be returned? From a moral stand point are conquered territories subject to this stance? If so, I come back to whether we can have America back (before we give the relevant parts to the natives of course, but then again who exactly do we count as native?).



[edit on 12-6-2009 by Mike_A]



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 04:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by Berens
reply to post by tristar
 


It would be the start of a giant domino effect -- Treasures returned to Egypt, Greece, Italy, etc. and such. The truth is, these items are probably safer in England. And there has to be a statute of limitations for everything. I think the statute has run in this instance.


I still am unable to see why there is so much fear, for transaction between Alexandria and Athens in giving back artifacts has already finished and naturally the two cultures share a lot in history. As for Italy and Greece, for the record over 3000+ items have been returned to Athens, this also is the case with Germany, since the Germans did strip many archeological sites. Just for the record, many civilians have returned artifacts which were stolen from soldiers during the occupation of Greece by Germany. Those civilians and family's have been awarded high commendation and a technical citizenship as Hellenics.

Lets face it here, its MONEY that is the issue here for anything that has been said has been overturned. Oh, and as for the them being safe, well i guess i should poor myself a coffee now as that claim is as lame as saying Egypt should not own the Pyramids because they are not safe.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 04:28 PM
link   
reply to post by Mike_A
 


Most museums share and exchange artifacts, this is very common and is has been going on for a long time. An exchange could range from 3 months to 2 years depending on what that museum is promoting. As far as ownership, well any person with common sense would understand.

To be honest, i feel very sorry for the Egyptians, 3/4 of their treasures have been looted over the last 300+ years. But they have had some great success in recovering what rightfully belongs to them. This also applies to the most recent looting of the museum in Iraq. Even to this date, they have found and convicted private buyers who had in their possession artifacts which belonged to Iraq.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 07:08 PM
link   
I’m not talking about exhibitions that are on loan, I’m talking about things that are actually owned by Greek museums. I did say this in my first post.

With regards to Iraq, as you say that is very recent but in cases that are centuries old some form of statute of limitation, as Berens said, should come into play.



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 07:33 PM
link   
They sold them to the uk and now they want them back. i mean....
Get Real!



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 11:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by Mike_A
I’m not talking about exhibitions that are on loan, I’m talking about things that are actually owned by Greek museums. I did say this in my first post.

With regards to Iraq, as you say that is very recent but in cases that are centuries old some form of statute of limitation, as Berens said, should come into play.


All artifacts that are on display in the Italian Museum have been cataloged, same applies to Greece and Egypt and Russia. Many many country's actually do sell them as the legal bearers and custodians based on their original locations. So to your answer, yes many museums sell and buy but that only is when the items are from the that nation. There are many private collectors who deal with the black market but thats another story.

Umm...we are referring to 1801 which isn't like thousand's of years ago. Statute of limitation, were are not talking about what the law is showing you and other people as that can be manipulated in any way at any time, damn, just look at the misuse of the law by the mp's, do i need to say anymore. Its about having moral and ethical values way beyond the greed for money.

Have you ever been to the Italian museum's, most of the pieces have been returned from around the world with little to no court or law quoting needed. Even the Spanish have returned thousand of artifacts back to south america and are still waiting on their new museum for them to be sent the rest. So i still cannot understand you way of thinking, Again think with logic rather than emotion.

[edit on 13-6-2009 by tristar]



posted on Jun, 12 2009 @ 11:53 PM
link   

Originally posted by purplemer
They sold them to the uk and now they want them back. i mean....
Get Real!


I suggest either you read through post or educate yourself. !

I think it is you who needs to get real.



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 12:04 AM
link   

Originally posted by purplemer
They sold them to the uk and now they want them back. i mean....
Get Real!


I love how you pipe in without knowing a thing about the discussion.

The Parthenon is a world renowned landmark...

It deserves it's marbles back.



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 01:03 AM
link   

2,500-year-old artifact returned to Egypt





CAIRO, Egypt - Egypt said Monday that it retrieved a 2,500-year-old limestone relief from London after its sale was blocked by Bonhams auction house there because it had been looted from a pharaoh's tomb.

A team of Egyptian archaeologists traveled to Britain to retrieve the artifact, which bears hieroglyphic text engraved in six rows and a cartouche of an ancient Egyptian queen, according to a statement issued Monday by Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities. It did not say when the carving was brought home.

The stone slab had been removed from a tomb discovered in 1969 in the Egyptian temple city of Luxor, the statement said.


Getty Museum to Return Greek Artifacts





The Greek government and the J. Paul Getty Museum in Los Angeles announce an agreement to return two works currently held in the Getty's collection.

While the Getty won't discuss details, a 6th century B.C. votive relief from the island of Thassos and a 4th century B.C. stele, or grave marker, from Thebes will be returned to Greece after the government was able to prove they were stolen.

The setback for the museum comes as its former curator of antiquities is on trial in Rome for her role in acquiring illicitly excavated artifacts from Italy.


Just a quick search will give you million of similar situations which eventually end up to their rightful owners. Its only a matter of time The sad part is that they do want to acknowledge what is evident from millions around the world but rather keep reminding themselves that MONEY is the only important issue.



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 04:48 AM
link   
reply to post by tristar
 


Hi Tri/
Well said!
Everything is about MONEY!
Its about the Worship of Money and let's NOT do the right thing!
It has always been like this from the beginning of time...Man will worship Mammon, over what truly is Good!
The thing that get's me is that everyone of US, each and everyone of US will die...so how do THEY that have acquired so much WEALTH believe/or think?
Will they be spending it in the NEXT life?


just my thoughts on MONEY...I know, off the subject, sorry.

IX
helen



posted on Jun, 13 2009 @ 05:21 AM
link   

Originally posted by Berens
It would be the start of a giant domino effect -- Treasures returned to Egypt, Greece, Italy, etc. and such. The truth is, these items are probably safer in England. And there has to be a statute of limitations for everything. I think the statute has run in this instance.


Dull is the eye that will not weep to see
Thy walls defaced, thy mouldering shrines removed
By British hands, which it had best behoved
To guard those relics ne'er to be restored.
Curst be the hour when from their isle they roved,
And once again thy hapless bosom gored,
And snatch'd thy shrinking gods to northern climes abhorred!

Lord Byron, from Childe Harold's Pilgrimage. Published in 1818.

The legality of Elgin taking the marbles was hotly debated in England at the time - and it's never really been settled. It's also been debated - angrily - by the Greek Ottomans pretty much continuously for the past 200 years. The debate over the return of the marbles surfaces in the British press about every 7 to 10 years, for the past 200.

If the statute of limitations has run out as you say, it's been run out by one party simply choosing to ignore that there was any wrongdoing in the first place, in the face of quite a bit of evidence. Which is a pretty vile way to behave.

If we were talking about a neighbour with a lawnmower, that he took from you on the permission of your ex wife... behaviour like this would warrant a beating, or a lawsuit, or both.



new topics

top topics



 
1
<<   2 >>

log in

join