Why there are no ATHEISTS

continued.

Originally posted by DaniemAnd not to mention the ark story: The longest wooden ships in modern seas are about 300 feet, and these require reinforcing with iron straps and leak so badly they must be constantly pumped. The ark was 450 feet long :\

Don't forget that they used tar.
The size of the ARK was 300 cubits long by 50 cubits wide by 30 cubits high. This is a ratio of 30 to 5 to 3. It was about 450 long by conservative measures. It was the largest sea vessel constructed prior to 1858. In 1844 Isambard K. Brunnel built the "Great Britain". Its dimensions were "exactly" the same as the ARK, using a 30 to 5 to 3 ratio. It was determined though "research" that these dimensions were a "perfect" ratio for any large sea worthy vessel. Even shipbuilders during WW 2 used these same dimensions to construct "cargo supply ships". JUST HOW DID NOAH GAIN THE INFORMATION TO USE THESE "PERFECT" DIMENSIONS? There was no previous knowledge to draw upon.

Originally posted by DaniemIts ridiculous. You say the bible is gods word because it sais so in the bible?!

Makes me wonder if YOU are serious.

The Bible is made up of many books. The Bible is true in its teachings that we are sinners and we can't pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps. The fact is that Jesus walked the earth and died for our sins and rose again and we must choose to believe in Him or not. The Bible is full of men's mistakes. Why would anyone write about their mistakes anyway?

Originally posted by DaniemAtheists doesnt necessarily proclaim to know 100%, they dont believe in odin, but he might still exist. They dont necessarily say he definitly isnt there.

Then that makes them agnostic.

Originally posted by DaniemThey're still atheists even if they're agnostic. You dont know if there is a invicible pink unicorn god out there somewhere, so you're also agnostic. You dont believe in odin so you're atheistic too. Thought youd know this stuff, its quite basic. (the romans called christians atheist because they didnt believe in the roman gods).

We'll I haven't seen no manuscript evidence for the pink unicorn. As for Odin, I've heard of him but he doesn't forgive us of our sins.
Thanks, TT


[edit on 6/14/2009 by texastig]

reply to post by texastig

Then that makes them agnostic.

No, that makes them an agnostic atheist.

As for Odin, I've heard of him

Maybe he's one of the other gods that yahweh thinks you shouldnt have before him? In fact, yahweh says that you shoulndt have ANY of the other gods before him.

The fact is that Jesus walked the earth and died for our sins.

Aight, you if you knew what a fact is, you'd know that it requires evidence to prove its truth. And as ive already gone through, the the bible is provably incorrect and is obviously the work of primitive men rather than God. You are irriational to believe in something like the bible and Yahweh. That you wont change your mind makes you close minded also.



If you only subsribe to those biased religious sources no wonder you can only see convincing stuff about the bible etc. But if you'd go to a objective site, with scientific arguments, you'd see how incredibly silly and ignorant much of the stuff in the bible realy is, and how contradicting, absurd and unscientific it is, all the way though.



A reading of Genesis indicates that the earth is only about 6000 years old, not the 4.6 billion that science has found it to be.

The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is just the opposite.

Humans were not created instantaneously from dust and breath, but evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms.

God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs. And ive heard christians say this means males have one less rib than females.


The bible and a few other texts are all that exists of "evidence" for the bible beeing facts. That noone at all wrote about the fantastic events that supposedly occured is a BIG [!] or rather [?]

Originally posted by Daniem No, that makes them an agnostic atheist.

Is there such a thing?

Originally posted by Daniem Maybe he's one of the other gods that yahweh thinks you shouldnt have before him? In fact, yahweh says that you shoulndt have ANY of the other gods before him.

All I said was that I heard of him. I never said anything about worshiping him.

Originally posted by Daniem
Aight, you if you knew what a fact is, you'd know that it requires evidence to prove its truth.

It is a fact that we are born sinners.

Originally posted by Daniem
And as ive already gone through, the the bible is provably incorrect and is obviously the work of primitive men rather than God. You are irriational to believe in something like the bible and Yahweh. That you wont change your mind makes you close minded also.

Something cannot come from nothing. That is logical. The very computer your typing on was created by a intelligent designer. If you look at the universe and earth you can see it was created.

Originally posted by Daniem
If you only subsribe to those biased religious sources no wonder you can only see convincing stuff about the bible etc. But if you'd go to a objective site, with scientific arguments, you'd see how incredibly silly and ignorant much of the stuff in the bible realy is, and how contradicting, absurd and unscientific it is, all the way though.

We'll I could say the same about your sources but I don't. The Bible is silly and ignorant? I don't think so. If that's the case then it wouldn't be the best seller.
The French philosopher Voltaire, a skeptic who destroyed the faith of many people, boasted that within 100 years of his death, the Bible would disappear from the face of the earth. Voltaire died in 1728, but the Bible lives on. The irony of history is that 50 years after his death, the Geneva Bible Society moved into his former house and used his printing presses to print thousands of Bibles.

Originally posted by Daniem A reading of Genesis indicates that the earth is only about 6000 years old, not the 4.6 billion that science has found it to be.

I don't know about that. To me it doesn't matter if it's 6000 or a million.

Originally posted by Daniem
The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is just the opposite.

Who says that's wrong? What science says that?

Originally posted by Daniem Humans were not created instantaneously from dust and breath, but evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms.

Prove it. Something can't come from nothing.

Originally posted by Daniem God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs. And ive heard christians say this means males have one less rib than females.

Everybody knows that's not true.

Originally posted by Daniem
The bible and a few other texts are all that exists of "evidence" for the bible beeing facts. That noone at all wrote about the fantastic events that supposedly occured is a BIG [!] or rather [?]

Like I said before. There's ancient non-Christian sources for the historical Jesus. Please pay attention if you don't mind to "non-Christian".
Paul was an eyewitness to Christ. Also I mentioned George Muller and his answered prayers.
There is also NDE (near death experiences) that disproves naturalism. See the true story in my post below.

continued from my post above.

Near Death Experiences Disprove Naturalism.
A nine year old girl had a swimming accident and was under water for nineteen minutes. She was given very little chance of surviving. Hooked up to machines to keep her alive, she surprised everyone by regaining consciousness three days later. She took almost one hour to explain her experiences during that time. Even though Dr. Melvin Morse, the pediatrician who resuscitated her in the emergency room, reported that she was "profoundly comatose" with "fixed and dilated pupils" and without brain activity, she accurately described several details from the emergency room. Then she said that she visited heaven with an angel and had spoken with her deceased grandfather. She said that she also looked in on her family at home and accurately described what her father, brother and sister were doing as well as their clothing. She knew that her mother had cooked roast chicken and rice for dinner. Since she claimed that these conditions had occurred only a couple of days before, Dr. Morse was able to verify these details with the family.

Even Antony Flew believes in NDE's and he's no longer an atheist.
The well known atheist philosopher A.J. Ayer experienced an NDE that he could not explain in natural terms: "On the face of it, these experiences on the assumption that the last one was vertical are rather strong evidence that death does not put an end to consciousness."

If you need more factual evidence for more NDE's let me know.

Thanks,
TT

[edit on 6/14/2009 by texastig]

Originally posted by Daniem
AGAIN: I am not trying to disprove Yahweh.
Now the claims are:

Look, in the original post, you said exactly this. You even bolded it, and then gave a list in which you claimed is right.

There is no evidence for God's existence either:

This is your exact quote.

1) The bible says it is Yahweh's word
2) Yahweh is right
3) Therefore the bible is right, and we can conclude Yahweh exists (!?)

VS

1) It is irrational to believe in wild stories about gods and creatures if there is no evidence to support their existance.

2) There is no evidence for Odin, Zeus, The Invicible Pink Unicorn, Yahweh etc.

3) Therefore those who believe anyway are irrational.

Once again you take the claims of people and use that as evidence towards god? First off, the bible isn't the word of god. 2nd off, the bible is not the authority, and while many people may have such logical fallacies, you are using the weakest points you can find and attacking that, rather than looking for the most plausible understandings or possibilities. Meaning, you are only looking at and for information that supports your theory, rather than looking at what is true.

The bible is obviously a work of primitive men, and its wrong on so many accounts, to the point of absurdity, contradicting, opposed to science and history.

Funny because the same basic questions and things are still being asked and such today. The only thing more advanced in our society today is technology. In terms of understanding our existence and so forth(spirituality), we have not advanced at all. It's been put on hold by design.

Now, if your not gonna present any evidence that there is a god, or that he divinely inspired people to write the bible, then we're pretty much done. You have no case.

I don't need to make a case. Your belief has absolutely no bearing on if something is true or not. I'm not even a christian, but yet you keep debating christian beliefs for some reason. I agree with Jesus and don't even think Christians are a reflection of that. You have yet to touch any of the real questions or anything. Every time I press you, you go on about claims Christians make. It is the same lame arguments and tactics atheists come in here and make over and over.

You think YOUR god is any less irrational than any of the others? You're not the only one that is dead surtain that you have the real and only true god, there are thousands of cults etc.

Again, what does this have to do with what is true or not? Do you think I expect or even want you to accept what I say is true? If you just accept what I say is true, then you are still blind. As Einstein said - any fool can know, the point is to understand. Once again you have looked out and tried to find other examples as a way of saying I am false, rather than addressing me.

You just think its crazy to call YOU irrational, when i suspect you feel the same for people who believe in other gods or deities. If not, feel free to tell me.

Actually, what I consider to be crazy and irrational is to base beliefs on nothing but acceptance. I think it is irrational to settle for anything less than understanding.

Look, I know most people just accept what they are told, and they are blind. I point it out on a daily basis. Anyone can repeat 1+1=2, the point is to understand. But taking the exact opposite approach is doing the exact same thing. You are exactly like those you point fingers at. Rejecting or accepting it does not matter. Why? Because either way, you allowed someone else to define the topic for you. Either way, you yourself have no understanding. Thus, while you think you are "rejecting it", in truth as you have allowed them to define the topic for you, you have still actually accepted it.

Can you understand that? You are still accepting what they say as the authority on things about god. It is that acceptance that I find to be irrational and blind.

If i found an ancient book proclaiming that there was an invicible pink unicorn god i definitly wouldn't bow down in awe of the magnificent reveleation presented to me.

Neither would I. So what? Again, you are allowing what other people say to define the topic. Sorry, but that is irrational.

To prove Yahweh you need to provide scientific evidence that proves the god beyond a reasonable doubt. You'd need ALOT of evidence to prove HE is the one that did all the things it says he did. You need to test him, to see that he can create, (like poofing stuff into reality), fortelling the future correct, show us hell would be nice (just so we know)

You do realize that all the examples you gave could be faked, and thus would mean pretty much any being with a higher technology could fake those things for you?

Science does not allow for free will or choice. Looking for god in creation is about like trying to find Bill Gates inside your windows OS, then proclaiming there is no proof Bill Gates exists.

The funny thing is you are god. And too blind to recognize it.

Basicly proof that he is the one from the bible. (but first we have to find him and get him to manifest as a human probably)

Again, you are saying those you believe to be irrational and so forth are the authority on the subject, and thus you accept and allow them to define things for you. As well, any proof given in the way you ask is proof in itself that it is false.

6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

So, it's only something that would only be shown to you personally. Your only hope in the kind of evidence you ask for would be the Moses exception, I included that part for you.

He seems to have done so much before, in OT he showed his presence alot as he poured his wrath down on people. Now a days, nothing. Noone who goes out to prove god gets any results to document. (and many people try and try)

It's something you have to seek for yourself. A personal journey. You are asking for other people to make the journey for you, so that you can accept what is said. And again, you allow them to define the topic for you.

Why is it rational to believe the bible is correct when it says there is a god? Is it irrational then to believe a book that says another deity or similar exists?

Pointing out the faults in another does not mean you yourself are void of those defaults. Again, if you think it is so irrational to believe a book and let it decide, then why are you using that same book, and those same beliefs as the basis for your arguments as well? Am I supposed to think you are different because you argue in the other direction?

As said earlier, science dont understand evything about conciousness yet, so i cant go into details. Also i dont know what your talking about. (Has nothing to to with the god of the bible) If it does then explain yourself.

Right, waiting for another authority to come along and tell you what to believe, while at the same time scolding others for doing the same.

You talked about people using "god" as an excuse for things they can't explain. You know what Science uses as an excuse for the same thing concerning god? Random. Why? Because they are based on action and reaction(logic), and for something to not follow action and reaction is illogical. Choice and free will is illogical in nature. Thus, the only thing Science can do is say "random".

Yet, A program can not even generate a truly random number. Why? Because "random" itself is also illogical. We use pseudo-random numbers in programs. They are random enough to suit the purposes and give the illusion of a random number, but they are actually 100% completely predictable. Why? Because it works on the realm of logic, of action and reaction.

Here, check it out.

www.random.org...

This service uses background radiation to generate random numbers for lotteries and such. It's not really random in terms of the universe, but as it is an external factor then it is random enough that a PC can not predict what the number will be. If someday someone knew all the background radiation coming in, it would lose that property. Because nothing is random.

Thus, there are 2 realms of things. There is the universe/creation, which is the physical, the flesh and is based on logic, laws and so forth. In the universe, there is nothing that is random, and thus you can repeat things over and over in a lab. We can make programs like this forum because of these laws, and because of logic.

The other side is the spiritual, the consciousness of things. Free will, choice and things that do not follow logic. Science is unable to deal with it.

My understandings do not originate from the bible. I think half the NT is a lie. I think a good bit of the OT is based on misunderstandings. But when I read Jesus, I see the understanding I gained. When I look at the 10 commandments, I see the understanding I gained. When I hear you reap what you sow, then I see the understanding I gained. When I read Proverbs 8, I smile at the amount of truth being told. I however refuse to allow other people to define these things for me. I do not "accept", I actually understand. I can separate the truth from the lies and manipulation.

Are you insinuating that that is what I and atheists believe? I assure you, all we have in common for surtain, is the lack of belief in gods.

I'm not insunuating anything, it's deduction. It either originated from design, or the initial event putting it all in motion was an accident. One or the other. (that's not to say that accidents don't then happen, and of course, different conditions force beings to evolve in different ways...but then, one would argue that the ability to evolve, is predicated from design).

But to adress your assumtion of accident:
Sometimes things do get built by accident. Many discoveries started out as accidents that people recognized uses for. Many other designs (accidental or not) have been selected against, that is, discarded. Design itself is an evolutionary process.

I didn't say accidents don't happen, or make the claim that great things do not come from accidents, they do all the time. However, I'm just saying that to assume all of the Universe happened as an accident is just as big a leap of faith as assuming a creative force behind it. Either way, without generally accepted evidence, either belief is just that, a belief, and a leap of faith....

reply to post by texastig


Alot of stuff for me to reply to now, so ill make this the last one, and i think im done with this thread. (i dont think its much point to further waste time)

Is there such a thing?

Yes, i am one. Do a search for it or something, and read about it.

All I said was that I heard of him. I never said anything about worshiping him.

No, but yahweh admits there are other gods.

It is a fact that we are born sinners.

Not if sin doesnt exist. And sin doesnt exist if god doesnt exist. So first you must prove there is a god.

If you look at the universe and earth you can see it was created.

No. Might have been here forever for all i know. Fortunatly things point to that it was indeed created, not from nothing, (like you believe, god poofing it in) but when part of the Sun's accretion disc agglomerated into a spherical body, billions of years ago.

At that time, shortly after the birth of the Sun itself, the solar system's matter was much more scattered around, in the form of asteroids and dust rather than planets. This "matter cloud" has been called a Bok globule, and these globules have been observed in other parts of the Galaxy.

We can see stars forming to this day, there is no need to say god poofed it in. This is typical, and happens every time you dont know something.

The Bible is silly and ignorant? I don't think so

Off course you dont think so.. thats the problem. There are so many of these ignorant, silly, contradicting things in there that its laughable. That you cant or wont see them is a shame. You just accept it, and that is completely irrational.


"When Jesus was crucified, there was three hours of complete darkness "over the whole land." It is strange that there is no record of this extraordinary event outside of the gospels."

"Herod kills all boys in and around Bethlehem that are two years old and under. Such a massacre would certainly have been noted by contemporary historians. Yet not even Josephus, who documented Herod's life in detail, mentioned this event."



"God spends a day making light (before making the sun and stars !?) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. "

The Sun belongs to a galaxy called the Milky Way. Astronomers estimate there are about 100 thousand million suns in the Milky Way alone. Outside that, there are millions upon millions of other galaxies also!

What science says that?

science

history of life
Its not difficult to find.

Prove it. Something can't come from nothing.

Thats what you believe. God poofed everything into existance. Scientists are the ones acctually trying to figure out how YOUR gods creation works, while you refuse to even learn the most basic of science. You shun your own gods creation.

Instead you believe scripture written by men, who could have been lying. You are choosing man over your own god when you choose scripture over reality.

I wish to understand this reality you believe was created by your god. I admire that reality, I am inspired by that reality and I want to know all about it. You shun your god's own creation while obsessing with a man-made book which contradicts the reality you think god created.



Now thousands upon thousands of analyses and fields of science seems to think life was simple at first, then became more complex as time went on. Thats what is definitly looks like.. and we have no reason to think otherwise.. espesially that a god came and made everything as is. Science is a continiuing investigation, and one day we'll know everything i hope.

Bit by bit we knock down every belief that says god did it, with how it REALY happened.

So YOU prove Yahweh made us.

There's ancient non-Christian sources for the historical Jesus.

There occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus got written well after the life of the alleged Jesus.

Weird that not a single historian, philosopher, scribe or follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him! And he supposedly had innumerable people follow him or greet him according to the bible. But nothing. I smell a myth :shk:

There is also NDE (near death experiences) that disproves naturalism.

You are realy gullible. It DISPROVES naturalism? Who said NDE cant be explained sometime? You're loosly gonna accept that story without investigating at all?

The content of near death experiences may vary by culture. Children, who typically do not have enough time to develop strongly towards one faith, had very limited NDEs. So basicly god believers think they see god, odin believers think they see odin, and other beliefs think they see their god.

But its an interesting subject, conciousness. Luckily it is beeing studied. But i dont think i wanna discuss with close minded people that refuse to change their mind no matter what.

Well your the one who started the thread and now your bailing out?

Closed minded?
The question on everyone's mind is this: "How did we get here?"
The only logical answer is that we were created because something cannot come from nothing. It's very simple and easy, Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Thanks,
TT


[edit on 6/15/2009 by texastig]

reply to post by texastig


Lol, you just demonstrated my point. You have a question you dont know the answer to, and simply put god in, an answer from ignorance

It is inconceivable that the universe could have originated naturally. Therefore, it must have been created. (by yahweh of all the gods none the less)

If you REALY wondered about the question "how did we get here" you dont adopt the creation story of an old book from a time where people believed in supernatural creatures. (irrational)

It's very simple and easy

You forgot convenient.

I dont believe god exists just because someone gets warm fuzzy feelings or give bombastic proclamations about the attributes of your god without any evidence to back them up.

Now if you think that its irrational to be atheistic then you are irrational yourself, since you dont believe in the other gods) It isnt rational to believe in ONE of the gods but not the others. There isnt proof for ANY of them.


That was the point of this thread, to show how irrational it is to believe in those types of superstitious things. You demonstrated that perfectly, you didnt bring any scientific evidence, gave answers from ignorance, and still believe, thus showing your irrationality, and that you're delusional.

How do we know that Christians are delusional?



[edit on 15-6-2009 by Daniem]

Originally posted by Daniem
Lol, you just demonstrated my point. You have a question you dont know the answer to, and simply put god in, an answer from ignorance

God is the only logical answer.

Originally posted by Daniem
If you REALY wondered about the question "how did we get here" you dont adopt the creation story of an old book from a time where people believed in supernatural creatures. (irrational)

The creation story is the only logical story. It takes more faith to not believe in God. That old book has stood the test of of time and has out lived Voltaire.
What supernatural creatures are you talking about?

Originally posted by Daniem
You forgot convenient.
I dont believe god exists just because someone gets warm fuzzy feelings or give bombastic proclamations about the attributes of your god without any evidence to back them up.

Listen, God loves you and He sent His Son to take away your sins. There is good and evil, light and darkness and there's God and there is a devil.
We can't pull ourselves up by our own shoe strings. We need help in this life. All you have to do is whisper His name and He will run to you.

Originally posted by Daniem
Now if you think that its irrational to be atheistic then you are irrational yourself, since you dont believe in the other gods) It isnt rational to believe in ONE of the gods but not the others. There isnt proof for ANY of them.

There is only one God and He sent His Son to die for our sins.
There are no other Gods.

Originally posted by Daniem
That was the point of this thread, to show how irrational it is to believe in those types of superstitious things. You demonstrated that perfectly, you didnt bring any scientific evidence, gave answers from ignorance, and still believe, thus showing your irrationality, and that you're delusional.

You have faith. You have faith the sun will raise in the morning. You have faith that when you sit down in a chair it will hold you. Have faith in the One who created you and the universe and who loves you

reply to post by Daniem

It is odd how you throw around the term 'close-minded', and then say something like this:

Originally posted by Daniem
But i dont think i wanna discuss with close minded people that refuse to change their mind no matter what.

You don't want to discuss, ey?

See, aside from the blatant propaganda, this is (one of) the problem with the video you linked. I know a number of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, atheists, Bahá'ís, etc., and I've never, in my entire life, called them delusional because of their faith. The ones who I am reasonably friendly with haven't called me delusional because of my beliefs either. It takes a certain level of militant arrogance to call something you have no knowledge of a 'delusion'.

If your purpose really was finding a suitably descriptive title for yourself and your beliefs, 'rational' is probably not the word. I'd suggest "Empiricist".

[edit on 16-6-2009 by babloyi]

reply to post by babloyi

Im sure you and me follow the same thought processes, and come to conclusions that validate our own methods and beliefs, and invalidate the opposing ones.

So if I don't accept every shred of anecdotal whimsey as absolute proof of the supernatural, I'm "closed minded"?

If I am moved by the results of well-performed studies that have passed peer review and contribute to a scientific consensus, I've "taken the red pill and gone down the rabbit hole to become a true believer in the lies of Big Science"?



Believers believe without the need for evidence and a skeptic requires evidence. If evidence was provided then the skeptic would believe what the religious believer believes.

I look down on "believers" not because of their belief but because of the "logic" they use in supporting and "proving" it.

They believe what suits them. It makes them feel good - why question it.



Skeptics have a useful foundation of scientific knowledge and an aptitude for following the scientific method. These tools allow us to distinguish poor quality evidence from good quality evidence.

And, importantly, they help restrain us from drawing poorly supported conclusions from the evidence that we do accept, no matter how strongly we want those conclusions to be justified.

reply to post by Daniem


Believe or disbelieve and there is no difference. Either way you still allow them to define the topic for you. Both are still basing beliefs off their claims.

so here is some proof for you

Jesus Christ appeared to me when I was around 7 years of age He spoke to me and said "follow me Rob"

so I did

God rescued me when I was giving birth to my first born, we both nearly died, God showed me the brilliance of the white light, eneveloped me in it and I felt the loving peace that allowed me to believe that everything was going to be alright...and it was.

Angels came and administered to me when I was in an horrific car accident. As the car was rolling I felt their hands lift me up from my seat and I was transported from the front seat to the back section of a 4 wheel drive nissan patrol. Found myself sitting up right with no injury. I would have been very injuried if I had of stayed in the front seat...mind you my seat belt was still connected in the front, whilst I sat in the rear that is behind the back seats.

Angels lifted up my son when he was nearly two years old preventing him from falling onto a huge group of nails in a jetty that was vandaled. He has a very small dot scar on his face...that really should be ripped apart.

I could go on. My life has been directly impacted by God

Proof is every where of the existence of angels, the existence of God, just look into the mirror and you will see Gods reflection staring back at you. Enjoy the moment and feel the love.

See one of the things some of you don't understand is your antecdotes are not proof to others. JIT tells these great and lovely stories but answer me this honestly without the emotion...

How can I truly know you aren't lying or it was a delusion you felt? It's a simple question with big ramifications because you simply cannot prove it to me.

Isis has touched me and spoken to me....how do I know I wasn't just imagining it? I don't.

You cannot prove abstractions...

I adore my wife beyond all measure. I love her beyond what words can explain in any language. So go ahead and challenge me now. Ask me to prove I love her. I cannot prove it to anyone inthe physical realm. You need to understand there are different types of proof

You have personal proof which is all the proof you will ever need. You know God exists and I know Isis exists...that's all we need to keep faith burning

Then there is concrete proof that can be shown to anyone. If want to show that two and two equals four I can take two pennies and set them down and then add two more to the table and have four. This is the proof you and others to include myself lack when it comes to religion.

-Kyo

The arguments in this thread seem al ittle pointless with neither side throwing up anything that would convince me of either side being right.

I'm and athiest, I choose to be athiest and when i'm asked to expalin why I denounce god, i simply say:-

I dont need to believe in a "higher" being to justify my existance on this earth, I'm here, I'm enjoying my self, I work and live life the way I want.

THAT to me, is what its all about....

God, to me, in all its forms around the world, is something that I personally think was created to control people.

This is just MY opinion of course...