Does man actually just enjoy killing?

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by Titen-Sxull

 

Good thing the two of you do not live in Africa.. you would be sitting in the bush trying to give the lion a guilt trip for getting ready to pounce that water buffalo.

We have to freaking eat. Are we supposed to eat the animal while it is alive?

Did you forget that we are just monkeys trying to get a nut..or a piece of jerky?

You make an excellent point, we are just animals (I think I mentioned that in my previous post) but I was talking mainly of killing for sport and enjoyment. Human beings as a species have taken to some weird hobbies ever since we came out of the jungle and violence/killing each other and other animals, with no real reason has topped the list...

I think a lot of animal rights people need to be reminded of the lion eating the buffalo you mentioned, they have a tendency to view nature as this completely perfect balanced system and blame us humans for being nasty predatory beasts for lining animals up for slaughter. They forget that the alternative is to stalk the herd and kill off the weak and sick the way that lion would... We humans consider ourselves above animals and I think that's why we're at this screwed up place as a society (not that we aren't unique and advanced as far as evolution is concerned). The only way to press on in our evolution is to accept what we are and stop pretending we're God's gift to the planet. But at the same time we need to stop believing we're some cursed plague on the planet, we're part of nature. Any effect we have on this Earth is entirely natural, any species we kill off whether on purpose or accidentally has been selected by a part of nature (us) and we need to stop the guilt tripping (but at the same time we should be doing a better job of taking care of the planet, but not because of the guilt, because its the right thing to do)

Sorry to get so long winded, but I went off on a tangent

[edit on 12-6-2009 by Titen-Sxull]

Originally posted by jd140
I enjoy turkey and deer hunting very much.

So if that means I like killing, then yes I do enjoy killing.

IMO there is a HUGE difference between killing to EAT and LIVE, and just killing because you love killing

killing and wasting is bad because it wastes good meat

if you do not use what you kill, that is plain stupid and wasteful

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by jd140
I enjoy turkey and deer hunting very much.

So if that means I like killing, then yes I do enjoy killing.

IMO there is a HUGE difference between killing to EAT and LIVE, and just killing because you love killing

killing and wasting is bad because it wastes good meat

if you do not use what you kill, that is plain stupid and wasteful

Couldnt agree any more. If it is to eat yes go ahead if it is to put a dear head over your fireplace hell no. Humans do have a tendency to mess with other creatures for non sense reason or try to blame the animal.

Funny thing we go around hunting animals nothing wrong that animal turns around and hunts us big problem.

reply to post by Gazrok

I have no moral qualms about killing bugs, but then, they do have certain attached problems....

well - that opens up a whole new can of worms

:-)

bugs seem to be the universal exception

though - I usually only kill bugs by accident - when I'm trying to save them

their rotten luck that I even try

I guess - if we were all really going to get into it - we'd have to agree on what the difference is between a nuisance and a problem

bird crap - the only real "problem" I can see coming from pigeons - is what I would call a nuisance - not an actual problem

bears breaking into people's homes looking for food - a real problem - and it breaks my heart

wiping out a community of prairie dogs because they ruin the lawn - nuisance

rabid skunk (which is a real issue currently where my sister lives) - problem

I have family members and friends who hunt - grew up with it

my philosophy about the whole thing is complicated - I see all sides pretty clearly

it's the waste, and the carelessness - the callousness and the out and out gluttony some have for watching things die that I hate

most hunters I've known don't have anything to do with any of that

reply to post by Astyanax

Yes, game is delicious, but the taste of venison isn't really the point, is it? The point is the atavistic thrill involved in hunting - you only have to listen to hunters talk, or read a hunting story by Hemingway or Faulkner, to understand that. To be honest, I think it's all a bit... twisted.

it is - and that whole manly running with the bulls attitude towards nature turns my stomach too

after I read that Hemingway once shot an owl - just because he wanted it as a pet - I could never read him again - that was it for me - I knew everything I needed to know about him - what kind of man he was

he was so concerned about it's eating - it's general well being - after he SHOT it

I have friends or relatives who hunt. We get on well enough - I've even eaten of their bags, with enjoyment, gratitude and some guilt - but there will always be a certain reservation.

as I mentioned - I come from this background

I could tell you stories - not that you need them

but for some - it's a different story

my dad and his brothers hunted - but they were actually hunting for food - they were all just barely making ends meet - and in those days - and that area - that's just what people did

I've known people who count on getting a deer at some point during the year - one deer or an elk can feed a family for quite a while

it's not just sport for some - and I know that some hunters actually love and respect nature - it's not wanton, meaningless thrill killing

Originally posted by dodadoom
reply to post by jd140

 

Do you drink the blood of your victims with your son too?



[edit on 11-6-2009 by dodadoom]

you know the way i was taught to hunt u do drink a little of the blood to keep the spirit alive. dont try and judge on something u obviously dont know anything about.

I dont know what the laws are in America regarding hunting are
but in Australia we can only hunt anamals that arn't natives and a real problem to the natural balance of things.. eg. Foxes, we have heaps of them, they where introduced to Australia by the English for the upper class to hunt and now they are everywhere, killing all our native wildlife, birds, possums anything..

I don't think it's natural for a man to be stuck in an office behind a computer all day, sometimes he needs to get back to his roots as a hunter and if it means killing feral animals to save the native ones and restore the natural balance of things.. it sounds great to me!

The way I approach hunting is self-sufficiency. If the SHTF tomorrow, I suppose most would be looting Walmart while I'd be heading into a forest with a bow or a rifle, and I'd be able to feed my family for longer. I'd rather not be an alien on my own planet.

If I want to teach my kids that too, quite frankly its none of your business, just as it isn't my business what traditions you want to teach your children. If you want to raise them to rely on a supermarket, go ahead, I won't object. Just have the common courtesy to respect other people's choices as well.

It's not so much the "thrill" of the hunt as the "skill" of the hunt. I love how non-hunters seem to make out that deer are defenseless little bambi clones; you're talking about an animal that can leap 6 ft in the air, run at 30mph, and smells like a bloodhound.

Hunters generally understand the balance of nature, have respect for the animals they hunt, have personal knowledge and experience of the habitat of the animal, dress and butcher the game they kill - can you say the same for people who pick up a roast or steaks from the supermarket every couple of days?

That said, I despise the kind of hunter that kills just for a six-point rack; it wouldn't stop me displaying one if I'd killed it to eat though.

[edit on 12-6-2009 by veritasvoice2009]

[edit on 12-6-2009 by veritasvoice2009]

Pointing a gun at an animal isn't a thrill surely? How about pouncing on it using your bare hands, now that's a challenge! I bet you won't be having steak on that occassion!

Seriously though, Its not good for the soul to be killing for fun, why? where's the challenge? why not go paintball shooting with your friends instead.

I understand people need to eat, but it must be done with minimum stress and humanely. I bet if we had to kill the animal for food ourselves most of us would end up vegetarians!

Here in the UK its quite sad to see the pheasants roaming around the countryside with missing legs etc because some braindead idiot didn't shoot it properly and most of the poor little buggers end up being discarded afterward - only a small proportion are actually eaten.

For the goodness of nature I have lured a pheasant and a couple of partridges into the garden with food to keep them safe from that dumbass farmer and his buddies

Originally posted by MilitieTempliSalmo
EDIT:

Amagnon

Hes no pansy. If your a hunter so brave and crap, go hunt a wild hog with your bare hands. Just you and your human muscular power, no guns, nothing that puts you in advantage to the beast your hunting. You, your hands... against a wild hog. Then we'll see whos the pansy, you brave man. Its nice to be brave from the aim of a 338 round nose.

** WARNING ** Seriously dont do it. Unless you have a death wish.

[edit on 12-6-2009 by MilitieTempliSalmo]

Bravery has nothing to do with it, do you think it takes bravery to hunt pigeons, or ducks or whatever? Someone who doesn't want to get their hands dirty is a panzy - they want a nice beef burger, but they would condemn people for killing cattle.

I also wonder if you read my entire post - I hold those who were shooting the pigeons in nothing but disdain. The killing of the pigeons is not relevant, purely the disrespect they treated them with - obviously having no desire to eat them. All life has value - and when you take it, then you should feel respect for the animal that has died so you can eat. Senseless thrill killing is vile.

The idea that people who hunt have something to prove is nonsense. People fish and hunt because the act satisfies our natural instincts. Sure if it is more challenging, then it is more satisfying - but who would wrestle a tiger so they could have a tiger skin rug? We didn't get to the top of the food chain by being stupid - pure instinct, augmented by imagination, and tempered by reason.

I see so many people who are so out of touch with their instincts - they can't express anger, or passion - that is is somehow out of place in the world.

They can't even speak their minds - they constantly filter it to be politically correct, to not offend, to not be sexist, or racist, or any number of things. That is not freedom - and it is not what we were born to be.

Men are becoming robots - creatures of pure reason, no imagination and no instinct.

Once men were lions - fierce, unbridled and free - now they are slaves, and despise those who remove their chains, because they are so accustomed to their own, if they removed them, they would no longer feel safe.

[edit on 12-6-2009 by Amagnon]

reply to post by secretswhisperer

Thats why I asked the question.
BTW, the OP's question has been answered.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts!

To summarize my thoughts here and hopefully kill this thread with
the same enjoyment others feel about killing also. Apparently.
Then maybe I might fit it a bit better if some realize that.
Like I really care anyway. Ya thats why I picked this name, to fit in.
Everyone rails against the video I posted, but would we look the other
way while it happens in our "civilized" society and then justify why we did?
Would we actually stand up to these wanna be humans? They got the guns.
That is why we wont and thats why we're ALL stuck. That is why we are
probably doomed sooner or later. Human nature will never be overcome.
(without serious help from someone or somewhere)
Ironically, we will never use our real smarts to overcome being real dumb.
The ones who think violence is normal will make it sure it stays that way for everyone else. And thats how it will always be.
The killers will kill the non killers and then they'll kill each
other and that will be IT for "humanity".
The strongest "animal" will survive. Which in the end will really be
just a cockroach or two probably. Fitting. The unadaptable perish eventually.

I see many of my replies are deleted, but only mine.
I respond to defend myself for asking a question and get deleted?
Deny ignorance indeed! Ya......
That would take the fun out of it. And a chance to just be mean I suppose.
Its too bad the thread turned into hunters vs environmentalists,
right vs left, neocon vs liberal, treehugger vs killer types, etc, etc, whatever labels we need to attach to feel better....IMO. Whats new, right?
This is the reason why I picked this name. Given enough time,
this genuine hate for anyone or anything even remotely different than us or what society decides is the norm, is why wars will never, ever end. They seemingly are fun, cuz we sure get into 'em easy and justify
them whatever it takes. Plus, the're just real good for business!
Yes I kid around. I do that. I also dont appreciate being called names.
I thought there was a rule against that but apparently not.
At least on this thread anyway. Thanks Fred.

There will always be an enemy in a society filled with hate.
And if the new one gets old we will dredge up an old one yet again
and call it new.
I have no hope humans will ever change. Why should I?
They are not even aware they would ever need to.
They are stuck in the old ways and are more than content with that.
Humans think like animals because we are ones too. We will always be.
Even though our mental capacity is so much greater its not enough to
overcome this sadistic side of human nature.
We are more than happy with it just the way it is and we "gosh dang"
intend to keep it that way.

We are so afraid to be wrong, laughed at, looked down upon or at least have our perspective altered slightly, we wont even let ourselves look! We do not want any other solutions.
Anyone who comes up with one will be swiftly stomped out like a light bulb
before its even turned on.(ironically, again) Thats why we fail as "human".
We could not find a better way if our civilization depends on it.
Which it actually does.
The answer to my question then is "yes".
Not only does he/she enjoy it and seem to need it for some reason,
he/she sometimes revels in it and proudly wears it like a badge.
Or at least for a trophy.
He considers it an exclusive right and sees no wrong at all in it.
Would not matter if it was an alien or a chihuahua, he/she will kill it,
if he/she "has too". Or "wants to".
The sheer atrocities humans inflict on others is proof enough, we're "stuckd".
Thanks and good luckt.

They will keep using the same scary enemy boogie man excuses and ramping up the mind-boggling "defense' budget to pretty near a trillion dollars per annum to keep the war machine, the murder machine, the most pointless, unjustified, illegal, criminal mass murder of human beings happening today and tomorrow and every single day for the rest of our lives and our children's lives and their children's lives, and why? From what I can tell the only reason could be that it gets them off.

thinkorbeeaten.blogspot.com...



[edit on 13-6-2009 by dodadoom]

reply to post by Amagnon


I see where you coming from but... theres a lot more to instinct than killing. Some call that "de-humanizing" I call it evolution. Lets stop being animals and behave like rational human beings, thats what separates us from beasts.

Instinct alone does you no good. Theres nothing wrong with refraining the "bad" part of it, you were given rational thought for that.

We need a HUGE AWFUL mess to happen so we stop using instinct and actually use our precious rational thought... something like the Vulcans in Startrek, remember? They had to go deep to almost their own destruction to start using some "wisdom" and learn some "control" in emotions that can lead to destruction, of man or beast.

In a perfect future you wouldnt have to kill to eat, there would be no meat, but close natural substitutes (since you were talking about burgers and cattle). Sure I eat meat.. and in my limits or with my very own existence threatened I would kill to eat... but I still find that primitive. And thats mainly because I know nothing of veggies (I would prolly die with some extremely poisonous mushroom or something... but I know how to cook meat and I never heard of a poisonous dear or rabbit )

Seriously tho... we're just to primitive to think before acting... and thinking before acting is called "acting by instinct". Sure sometimes it helps and its good... but killing is not one of my instincts. I would do it in extreme circumstances only, driven purely by necessities greater than my rational thought... and even there I dont know if I would sleep that well thinking that I just took something's life... which I have no right. I am no god to decide what lives and what dies. Maybe its in my power because I'm the dominant species but I dont think I'm entitled to that power.

reply to post by MilitieTempliSalmo

Just wanted to say thank you for that.
You get what I'm trying to say. I guess maybe we do
need a big wake up call to force us to "grow up" as a species,
or we will perish -if by nothing else- our own hand. Thanks.
I can't imagine what that would entail though.
Guess it couldn't hurt to think about it anyway......

Okay, I thought about it.
You are right, It would take alien involvement. Vulcans' is ok.
(we're already just like the klingons)


[edit on 13-6-2009 by dodadoom]

Oh man. I looked at the video. I hadn't before.

And you wonder why people hate Americans or, at best, look to you with disdain and revulsion. Yeah, everybody hates your freedoms and prosperity. That's it.

As others say, it's the feeling of power that comes from 'making something happen'. Being able to effect or change something, especially relating to another livng stimulus gives a feeling of power and therefore fulfillment.
Why this is so is probably due to an innate behaviour to help us hunt or something.

Tempted to just say 'yes', but i wonder whether its related to population size? Perhaps its a buit in behaviour condition to kill when out 'tribe' reaches a certain size?

So I wont be considered a bad host(again), I will respond for WIW:

Sony AD, I wonder just how many here made a knee jerk comment
without even watching the video? I also wonder, of those people who
did watch it AND even comment on it, how many will care enough to
even do one more thing about it, other than be truely disgusted.
I only posted it because we need to see it. We need to see what we do.
We need to see the barbarisism of our "civilized" modern society.
Will anything ever get done? NO, but miracles do happen. Sometimes.

I wonder who here has decided they really know me? Or any of us.
America is looked at as a fat and lazy empire bent on world domination
one way or another. Why would they feel different? I can only imagine.
They are probably scared witless. Dont show 'em this video either will ya? Thanks.

And1423, thanks also for that, even though you all are applying
defibrilation on a dead patient. That patient is us, besides this thread!
We may need some serious shock therapy, or maybe just a hole in the head of self-righteousness.
(After being captured and put in a cage for days with no food or water
of course) Wonder how differently we would feel then? Probably wouldn't...
Sorry for my hopelessness. You understand now why I feel this way, dont you?
As much as I want this thread to be about me because of my human ego,(kidding I hope)
its not and never was about me.
Its not about hunting for food either or even about food at all for that matter.
Its about humans' sheer lust for and enjoyment of the pain and death
they inflict, not even realizing what they really do, that it could be wrong,
or that there could (ever) be a better way. Thats whats hopeless.
It's normal and even admired,toasted over as a sign of "toughness",
and hung on the wall of every tough guys man cave. Ironic again, eh?
Any blockhead can kill and feel good about it somehow I guess.
It's much harder to overcome this primal urge and evolve.
You are right, it's like being collectively stuck in the terrible twos for
eternity,(or for the life of man, whichever comes first)never allowing
ourselves out of the playpen to grow up. At all.

P.S. But,...look at the bright side, we could all be dead!

[edit on 13-6-2009 by dodadoom]

reply to post by bookofthelaw


Oh for sure! That plays into it also.
The more we realize we're stuckt, the more we will kill.
And the harder we will work to justify it all of course.
Not to ever expand ourselves mentally mind you, but to use that
energy(and precious time)to maintain the status quo, however unsustainable that may actually be.

Sorry, another zap on the ol' heart.
I couldn't help it. So sue me.
I'm kidding!
Anyway, I thought this needed posting again so bad. Sorry.
(yep its raining and dreary here)
You all should look at whats going on to the
peeps holding out in the rainforests.
They, like the native flora and fauna, will eventually succumb to
mans lust for killing/power sooner or later too.
At least they are putting up a fight
Sorry for the all bad news. Just reality, "living in the you know what". D

The brutal murders of indigenous people by militarized police forces of the Peruvian State happened just a couple of days ago. As always, the official perspective is that human beings who want to protect their land, culture, birth rights, sovereignty, means of subsistence, dignity or human rights are outrageous, irrelevant people who are dangerous and can only be dealt with by killing them.

thinkorbeeaten.blogspot.com...
Please watch this. Please? Thank you.
news.nationalgeographic.com...
www.amazonwatch.org...




[edit on 13-6-2009 by dodadoom]