Does man actually just enjoy killing?

reply to post by Astyanax

Tasty bait, but these cut-price psychos are an aberration, surely?

an aberration – thankfully – hopefully. I said it because of something you said in an earlier post:

Nobody believes they are entitled to kill for pleasure. That's why they always find excuses for it. That is precisely how all this 'I eat therefore I hunt' nonsense got started. It's just rationalization and self-justification from people who know the pleasure they take in slaughter is a guilty one.

I think this entire thread is a good example of this - no one can really say anything about killing each other, so, we turn to bugs and animals and then the rationalizations begin

There really aren’t people who enjoy killing – unless they are an aberration. Anyone who kills has an explanation to go with it – someone who would kill a kitten is probably not capable of coming up with an explanation – they just kill

so, of course, not one of us was really willing to even consider this:

All (this includes you) take pleasure in killing under the right circumstances. This is not a 'primitive' tendency: it is the evolved instinct of one of the most advanced and complex lifeforms ever to inhabit this planet.

:-) so...this is one of the reasons I am so genuinely fond of the monkeys - look at all we go through fighting to be different from what we really are – it never stops being interesting to me

And talking of kittens, anyone who has ever owned one knows that some animals, at least, kill for the sheer pleasure of it.

do you really want to use the word pleasure? There is a reward in it for them when they kill – and I guess you could call that pleasure – but I don’t see it play out for them the way pleasure would for us. If you really watch them you can see – it’s not like they have a choice. Their instincts really are just that strong - if it moves they’ll jump on it - there’s no thinking

We accept killing for food as a disagreeable necessity - HulaAnglers may not agree, but meat (in moderation) is natural to the human diet and a good thing too, because we sometimes find ourselves in places - the sea, the tundra, the desert - where the only sustenance is meat.

Or – even an agreeable necessity. I'd be a complete liar if I said I didn't like meat.

The thing about us: we always want things to be either good or bad – right or wrong – and we want those things to remain right or wrong all the time – fixed, so we don’t have to keep reexamining them over and over

We are omnivores – have been for so long there’s no point in even arguing about it. Again – it’s something about us that I think is amazing – that we are creatures that can look at a situation that we could just accept and never think about – but, we think about it. We choose to think about it – then we argue about those things with each other – over and over.

For whatever reason – we can change – change how and what we think – change what we are willing to do. We fight our instincts – and killing is one of them.

I don't actually despise vegetarians (in fact, I rather admire of them for having a principle and living up to it) but I don't see anything morally wrong in eating meat and think it is healther than otherwise to do so.

well – what a HUGE discussion – probably better had in another thread*

I do not despise the carnivores :-) One reason being is because as recently as 18 months ago – I was one

I come from a background that was just so about the circle of life – in a very real and immediate way. Which makes this:

Not all of you will follow me along the next few steps. I think killing should be avoided as far as possible. Certainly we should never kill each other except under the gravest necessity, and wanton killing of animals is a disgrace. But I don't think killing (or any other action) is intrinsically good or evil in itself. It is merely right or wrong, or perhaps ethically neutral, and that depends on all the circumstances surrounding the act. And one of the most important circumstances, for the perpetrator and society alike, is the motive for the act.

my basic philosophy for my entire life – even now – as a vegetarian :-)

If I shoot a leopard that's about to attack me, I don't doubt that killing the beast would afford me not just relief but extreme pleasure. It would, I think, be perfectly justified. But imagine now that the leopard I shot was one of the last remnants of a dwindling species - a snow leopard, perhaps. Now another moral dimension emerges. You might argue that I'm still justified in killing and taking pleasure in it, since it was my life against the leopard's. But another person might ask me, 'What were you doing in the leopard's space to begin with? Your mere presence in its habitat is an offence, precisely because it makes possible a confrontation of this kind.'

this entire idea only works if you have enough time to really think about it - which we do

truth is – if I had no time – and no other options – I’d shoot that leopard dead and not think twice about it – done

anyone who thinks they would do otherwise thinks this because they believe that you have time to philosophize when it happens - or maybe they’re actually Yoda :-)

or – they don’t understand that they have instincts just like all the other creatures – and they will automatically run – or they will fight – at the very least struggle

I like to call myself a pacifist – but that doesn’t mean I’m intrinsically peaceful – it’s a choice

my first true instinct, my immediate reaction in a situation – is not always peaceful

And what if I reply, 'I was flying in a plane over this country. The plane developed engine trouble and crash-landed. I am the only survivor.' What then? Does that absolve me of the responsibility of killing? Or of guilt for the pleasure I took in it? Does it make it any better that I have contributed materially to the extinction of a species?

so we get back to good/bad, right/wrong – and I understand what you’re saying – circumstance changes everything

the situation you describe above is one thing – if I found that someone had been killing tigers so you could sell their naughty bits to help out with virility issues in China – I would have an entirely different opinion of them – I would despise them

Is the extinction of a species such a big deal, anyway?

only if you’re sentimental :-)

it’s something I say regularly concerning the planet – our resources – what we hold dear – these are not good times to be sentimental

Surely by far the larger part of all the species that have existed on Earth since life first emerged must now be extinct. What difference does it make - in a moral sense - if we extinguish a few more? Who's counting, apart from us? We'll never eradicate all life on Earth, it just isn't possible.

and you’re right of course – but we each only get the one lifespan – and we like things just the way they are – and the idea that those things will remain after we’re gone

Nature makes no moral demands on us - only instinctive ones. We make morality, and we make it in order to manage our instincts. I believe killing for pleasure is wrong: whether or not you then eat what you have killed makes no difference.

and so it is about choice - you are allowing for the possibility of choice - aren't you? :-)

We all work out those things for ourselves – as best we can

having said that, when it comes to the extremes at either end of this discussion – those that kill for their reasons, and then those that are militantly opposed to any harm being done to the various creatures on this planet – I can’t help but understand them both – I see both sides very clearly

if I had the ability to control anything that happens with the way humanity treats life on this planet I would focus my energies on abuse - torture. That alone would lead to changes in how we do or don’t view killing

enough said probably

but for now - just as we can choose not to kill – we can also choose to be tolerant
____________________________________________________________
*the nutritional end of it - I'm about done with the moralizing end of it here :-)


[edit on 6/18/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by dodadoom

 

. It is simply my place in the scheme of things. Life feeds on life.

[edit on 11-6-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

This is probably the best way to summarize any killing we do...

It is a part of life, and even though I myself might not enjoy the killing, others do. Mutual benefits. They kill it, have fun, I get to eat the food.

The human species is far superior to all others (at least here on earth)...I do not understand when people actually compare our integrity to those of cows and stuff.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

and so it is about choice - you are allowing for the possibility of choice - aren't you? :-)

As you know, I tend to use words like 'choose' and 'decide' in a metaphorical sense. But this thread is far too thickly populated with what HulaAnglers would call 'insufficiently evolved' characters to discuss stuff like that in it. Some people are just looking for excuses, you know...

Originally posted by ahnggk
You know Orcas are separated by cultures too.

Fascinating. Can you post some more information on this?

I once read that there are two known species that have been observed to kill for "pleasure" (i.e., not when threatened and not for food): Humans and polar bears.

Apparently polar bears will just bust out and kill something nearby sometimes seemingly just for the hell of it, then leave the corpse and walk away.

These guys are white trash, imbred cowards and thats an under statement. I have nothing wrong with hunting animals for food for survival but this is just sad and it makes my stomach turn...

I've hunted birds, deer, pigs, ducks, exotics you name it... But I eat what i kill and dont just go out shooting live animals for target practice. These guys are just torchering these birds and thats very disturbing to me... Why would you want to inflict harm on a living animal for no reason? Do you like to see other living things in pain or something? Usually people who do things like that to animals would do the same thing to a person...

If you get your rocks off by shooting a helpless bird who's been in captivty it's entire life and the very second it thinks it being set free gets shot with lead pellets and then smashed into the side of a trashcan by the offspring of such a shallow human being, you should be dragged out back and have one out in your head to rid the world of your disgust. Hell, I'll even pull the trigger because people like you have no respect for life on any level and dont deserve to walk amongst the civilized.

reply to post by dodadoom


I have no problem with eating meat. There are those who can slaughter animals for food - and without them I suppose we wouldn't have the meat we choose/desire/need to eat.

I do have a problem with people who shoot to kill strictly for the sport. I don't understand how someone could enjoy watching anything die. We kill houseflies and spiders - actually I have been putting spiders outside lately as opposed to killing them! But to see a living breathing mammal drop and flop until it dies is quite sickening.

It honestly makes me wonder if the people that shoot to kill - for sport only - have major psychopathic problems. If given the opportunity to do this to a human - with the guarantee that they wouldn't get caught - how many of these people would jump at the opportunity?

reply to post by gtatix

Thank you for saving the spiders! I know that sounds weird
to any who have not read my earlier posts!
Your garden needs the spiders to eat the pests that eat your veggies!
Star for that and this;
I guess you hit upon my worst fear also.
And is the underlying reason for the initial post.
That is, if they will do this to animals when are people next?
Who gets hurt when they get po'd enough? Only animals? Right.
These scumbags dont have a clue about being a civilized human.
Or a heart with any comapssion in it either, apparently.
So easy a caveman can not only do it, but enjoy it and
teach it to all the little scummies.

I feel as others here do, they deserve a taste of the pain they inflict.
And I'm not usually like that, dont know if I would enjoy that or not btw.
Call me freaky that way cuz I have compassion for others' well being.

Originally posted by gtatix
reply to post by dodadoom

 

I have no problem with eating meat. There are those who can slaughter animals for food - and without them I suppose we wouldn't have the meat we choose/desire/need to eat.

I do have a problem with people who shoot to kill strictly for the sport. I don't understand how someone could enjoy watching anything die. We kill houseflies and spiders - actually I have been putting spiders outside lately as opposed to killing them! But to see a living breathing mammal drop and flop until it dies is quite sickening.

It honestly makes me wonder if the people that shoot to kill - for sport only - have major psychopathic problems. If given the opportunity to do this to a human - with the guarantee that they wouldn't get caught - how many of these people would jump at the opportunity?

I've grown up around guns since I could barely walk...if I may be allowed a moment or two of preening, I'm an excellent marksman, and I believe this is because I learned young...like anything else, if you start young you will get good at it...the neural pathways in brains of young kids are laying themselves down at a furious pace...

That said, I agree with you...except for targets and stuff like cans/bottle shooting, the rule in my family vis-a-vis killing living things has always been: "you kill it, you eat it." Also, my personal pet peeve is how few "hunters" know how to properly field dress and make the use of the skin, viscera, etc. of animals they kill...as little of a killed animal as possible should be wasted. And respect to the killed animals of some sort is a must; this is an ancient human tradition lasting tens if not hundreds of thousands of years, and to kill such that you abandon and/or waste the useful part of the killed animal verges on the sacriligious in my view.

JUST TO NOTE...

I DO think that any animal that is killed SHOULD be used.

Whether it be hunting, shooting 15 bullets into the stomach of a deer...I will say that there should be some sort of law that states you must donate it somewhere or something - IDK.

It would be hard to enforce but the penalty would be severe.

That is more on lines of my ideology that nothing should go to waste that doesn't have to or could be economically feasible.

Killing animals is okay...but not for plain target practice. Should have to skin it, eat it, whatever.