reply to post by Astyanax
Tasty bait, but these cut-price psychos are an aberration, surely?
an aberration – thankfully – hopefully. I said it because of something you said in an earlier post:
Nobody believes they are entitled to kill for pleasure. That's why they always find excuses for it. That is precisely how all this 'I eat
therefore I hunt' nonsense got started. It's just rationalization and self-justification from people who know the pleasure they take in slaughter is
a guilty one.
I think this entire thread is a good example of this - no one can really say anything about killing each other, so, we turn to bugs and animals and
then the rationalizations begin
There really aren’t people who enjoy killing – unless they are an aberration. Anyone who kills has an explanation to go with it – someone who
would kill a kitten is probably not capable of coming up with an explanation – they just kill
so, of course, not one of us was really willing to even consider this:
All (this includes you) take pleasure in killing under the right circumstances. This is not a 'primitive' tendency: it is the evolved
instinct of one of the most advanced and complex lifeforms ever to inhabit this planet.
:-) so...this is one of the reasons I am so genuinely fond of the monkeys - look at all we go through fighting to be different from what we really
are – it never stops being interesting to me
And talking of kittens, anyone who has ever owned one knows that some animals, at least, kill for the sheer pleasure of it.
do you really want to use the word pleasure? There is a reward in it for them when they kill – and I guess you could call that pleasure – but I
don’t see it play out for them the way pleasure would for us. If you really watch them you can see – it’s not like they have a choice. Their
instincts really are just that strong - if it moves they’ll jump on it - there’s no thinking
We accept killing for food as a disagreeable necessity - HulaAnglers may not agree, but meat (in moderation) is natural to the human diet and a
good thing too, because we sometimes find ourselves in places - the sea, the tundra, the desert - where the only sustenance is meat.
Or – even an agreeable necessity. I'd be a complete liar if I said I didn't like meat.
The thing about us: we always want things to be either good or bad – right or wrong – and we want those things to remain right or wrong all the
time – fixed, so we don’t have to keep reexamining them over and over
We are omnivores – have been for so long there’s no point in even arguing about it. Again – it’s something about us that I think is amazing
– that we are creatures that can look at a situation that we could just accept and never think about – but, we think about it. We choose to think
about it – then we argue about those things with each other – over and over.
For whatever reason – we can change – change how and what we think – change what we are willing to do. We fight our instincts – and killing is
one of them.
I don't actually despise vegetarians (in fact, I rather admire of them for having a principle and living up to it) but I don't see anything
morally wrong in eating meat and think it is healther than otherwise to do so.
well – what a HUGE discussion – probably better had in another thread*
I do not despise the carnivores :-) One reason being is because as recently as 18 months ago – I was one
I come from a background that was
just so about the circle of life – in a very real and immediate way. Which makes this:
Not all of you will follow me along the next few steps. I think killing should be avoided as far as possible. Certainly we should never kill
each other except under the gravest necessity, and wanton killing of animals is a disgrace. But I don't think killing (or any other action) is
intrinsically good or evil in itself. It is merely right or wrong, or perhaps ethically neutral, and that depends on all the circumstances surrounding
the act. And one of the most important circumstances, for the perpetrator and society alike, is the motive for the act.
my basic philosophy for my entire life – even now – as a vegetarian :-)
If I shoot a leopard that's about to attack me, I don't doubt that killing the beast would afford me not just relief but extreme pleasure. It
would, I think, be perfectly justified. But imagine now that the leopard I shot was one of the last remnants of a dwindling species - a snow leopard,
perhaps. Now another moral dimension emerges. You might argue that I'm still justified in killing and taking pleasure in it, since it was my life
against the leopard's. But another person might ask me, 'What were you doing in the leopard's space to begin with? Your mere presence in its
habitat is an offence, precisely because it makes possible a confrontation of this kind.'
this entire idea only works if you have enough time to really think about it - which we do
truth is – if I had no time – and no other options – I’d shoot that leopard dead and not think twice about it – done
anyone who thinks they would do otherwise thinks this because they believe that you have time to philosophize when it happens - or maybe they’re
actually Yoda :-)
or – they don’t understand that they have instincts just like all the other creatures – and they will automatically run – or they will fight
– at the very least struggle
I like to call myself a pacifist – but that doesn’t mean I’m intrinsically peaceful – it’s a choice
my first true instinct, my immediate reaction in a situation – is not always peaceful
And what if I reply, 'I was flying in a plane over this country. The plane developed engine trouble and crash-landed. I am the only
survivor.' What then? Does that absolve me of the responsibility of killing? Or of guilt for the pleasure I took in it? Does it make it any better
that I have contributed materially to the extinction of a species?
so we get back to good/bad, right/wrong – and I understand what you’re saying – circumstance changes everything
the situation you describe above is one thing – if I found that someone had been killing tigers so you could sell their naughty bits to help out
with virility issues in China – I would have an entirely different opinion of them – I would despise them
Is the extinction of a species such a big deal, anyway?
only if you’re sentimental :-)
it’s something I say regularly concerning the planet – our resources – what we hold dear – these are not good times to be sentimental
Surely by far the larger part of all the species that have existed on Earth since life first emerged must now be extinct. What difference does
it make - in a moral sense - if we extinguish a few more? Who's counting, apart from us? We'll never eradicate all life on Earth, it just isn't
possible.
and you’re right of course – but we each only get the one lifespan – and we like things just the way they are – and the idea that those things
will remain after we’re gone
Nature makes no moral demands on us - only instinctive ones. We make morality, and we make it in order to manage our instincts. I believe
killing for pleasure is wrong: whether or not you then eat what you have killed makes no difference.
and so it is about choice - you are allowing for the possibility of choice - aren't you? :-)
We all work out those things for ourselves – as best we can
having said that, when it comes to the extremes at either end of this discussion – those that kill for their reasons, and then those that are
militantly opposed to any harm being done to the various creatures on this planet – I can’t help but understand them both – I see both sides
very clearly
if I had the ability to control anything that happens with the way humanity treats life on this planet I would focus my energies on abuse - torture.
That alone would lead to changes in how we do or don’t view killing
enough said probably
but for now - just as we can choose not to kill – we can also choose to be tolerant
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*the nutritional end of it - I'm about done with the moralizing end of it here :-)
[edit on 6/18/2009 by Spiramirabilis]
