Originally posted by debz325
What does Fascism,Nazism and Communism all have in commom?socialism.So yes it is all left leaning,Dems want big goverment.

Fascism is the combination of corporation and goverment. That is right. Communism is very left.

Nazi-ism is not a socialist structure. It is a combination of both. I suggest you do a little more research on the subject.

Dbl post sry

[edit on 11-6-2009 by Wally Hope]

Originally posted by Wally Hope In other words we ALL own and benefit from production, as apposed to the wealth going into the hands of the few and the rest of us get what they decide to pay for our labor.

So a pension, paycheck and stock dividends arent benefiting from production?

I dont know how marketable you are but I've always decided how much my labor was worth. An employer offers a price, I negotiate it up, if I cant I move on to the next employer.

If ownership of a widget plant were spread among the employees who pays to fix it if it breaks? Do they all chip in? What if Steve over here spent all his money on booze and playstation games and cant afford his share? Does it not get fixed? Does some other employee pay his share? Sooner or later Steve will have to make up his debt somehow. If Steve likes to work hungover and only produces half the widgets of Paul in the cube next door should Steve really earn as much as Paul? Somebody will have to take time to retrain, discipline or fire Steve and possibly hire Steves replacement. How is that guy compensated?

If I were in a business with only 4 or 5 people I knew well I'd be all for the 5 of us acting like co-owners and sharing the profits. If I'm a plant with 300 employees I'm not willing to bet my paycheck on the fact that there arent any dumbasses at the plant dragging our profitability down.

What you speak of is a fantasy barely functional in a controlled environment destined to fail in a real world environment.

I think in this world of yours I'd like to be an engineer. That way I get a piece of all the profitability of every structure and road around. Maybe I'll even do some side blackmailing and extortion if folks dont want their roads or buildings to fail.

This all seems eerily similar to the dismal way the folks in Eastern Europe were living not so long ago.

How soon people forget. Oh, that's right, that wasn't trueSocialism. Once the human factor is involved there can be no trueSocialism as these daydreamers paint it.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
I dont know how marketable you are but I've always decided how much my labor was worth. An employer offers a price, I negotiate it up, if I cant I move on to the next employer.

Marketable? I take offense to terms such as that. I'm not a commodity for you to place value on. You are lucky, most of the working world doesn't have that kind of privilege. Maybe you think everyone has the same potential and opportunities you do? Sry but most of the worlds working class have no choice.

Anyway you're off topic, all I did was try to explain terms and put them in context, sry if it upsets your twisted illusion of reality. If you learned a little about what you are so against you'd realize how your questioning really makes no sense, and how you have no idea what I'm talking about at all.

Drunk Steve wouldn't need anyone to fire him, he'd just get 'sorted', real fast. It's all about taking responsibility, as apposed to paying someone else to do it for you...

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
For simplicity sake, complete freedom is on the right and authoritarianism is on the left.
As you can see Hitler wasn't hard right he was hard left as was Stalin, Bush, etc.
But the truth of the matter is that its also up and down, once again as the chart shows.

The left was traditionally working class, anarchism, socialism. communism. The right traditionally of the elite, fascism, militarism, capitalism.

You seem to have it backwards. It seems that most all of North America has it backwards. But complete left or right would be totalitarianism. Complete freedom would be centrist and left/right wouldn't exists, government wouldn't exist.

Hitler was the poster child for the right, why do you think Nazi skinheads are right wing and not socialist? Why would Nazi Germany fight the left in Spain? Italy, Spain and Germany were all fascist nations and the left (socialists, anarchists and communists) were fighting them in Spain. The Spanish Revolution/Civil War 1936). Read some history instead of internet junk.

The National Socialist Party (Nazi) was left wing. It is a historical fact. Hitlers particular brand of socialism was a mixed bag of Wealth redistribution and corporatism. This is why you hear Names like "IG Farben" always associated with the Nazi war effort. The Nazi's used the Jews in the camps as slaves for R&D projects from various German corporations during the war. This is also why German military technology was far superior to allied tech. Collusion of State and Corporation, the surest sign of fascism there is.

But You must also remember, there is no "extreme" of right and left. The Extreme of the left is fascism, the extreme of the Right is fascism, it makes no difference how or where it originates. In a sense, left wing and right wing essentially mean nothing, other than an arbitrary description of a person's moral code.

Example would be: Goerge W. Bush was considered to be the new definition of "right wing", yet his every decision countermanded what the "old right" believed in. IE : Pre-emptive war, war in general is not a right wing Ideal, neither is expanding the size and scope of government, which he most certainly did. Encroachment of civil liberties is not a right wing Ideal either. In fact nothing Bush did was right wing or conservative. If you were to research where Neo-conservatives originated from you would find that they actually came from the "far left", but what does that mean? "Far left" of what?

Then you take Barack Obama, Neo-Liberal, not doing things the classic liberals used to espouse. In fact he is polar opposite. Liberals, like conservatives, do not agree with destroying civil liberties, which he has done. Liberals, like conservatives, do not support the collusion of The State and Corporations, and yet we have a supposed "liberal" handing out money to bankers and buying out companies. Liberals, like conservatives do not support forcing our ideals on other nations at the point of a gun, and yet, the apparent "liberal" in the white house is doing just that.

If conservatives and liberals agree on so many things what are the inherent differences? Social Spending mostly. The right believes people are strong enough to care for themselves, The left believes people are strong enough to care for others. The right would say caring for yourself is caring for others. The left would say the Strong have a responsibility to care for the weak. That right there, is the core of the argument between a classic liberal, and a classic conservative.

But that argument is why things like Socialism, Communism, Fascism, and dictatorships Origionate from either side of the spectrum.

If we are talking recent history(the past 200 years or so) It typically goes like this......

The classic liberal will make his case for a social program, or the classic conservative will make his case for a trade regulation, pick one, doesn't matter. The government adopts it, after 200 years goes by the social program isn't just about food anymore, and the trade regulation isn't about tariffs. Now it's about Schools, Medicine, Money, Roads, Railways, houses, cars, jobs, globalism, "free trade agreements", licensing, registration, and control of the flow of goods and capital. Once the state controls all of that, you will wind up with Communism eventually. But, Communism cannot stand on it's own, it will eventually collapse under it's own weight. Which is why Governments need Corporations to stay Large and overbearing. Private companies drive societies forward, all governments know this, which is why governments collude with them. This is why George Bush and Barack Obama have so many striking similarities. Because they are both Fascists.

All of that happened with the best intentions in mind. The Classic Liberal was a good person, as was the conservative, Their arguments were well thought out, but like any idea, it got perverted by extreme members of their respective political parties.

The real trick of it all, is understanding the inherent evil that lies in the houses of power. Politicians will always cater to the lowest common denominator, IE the very poor. Always, I don't care how good a speaker he or she is, they do not care about you or your country. All it does is make them seem compassionate, it earns them votes, and it increases the size of the government because of the social programs implemented to take care of that sector of the population.

Ask any politician, left or right, doesn't matter, tell them that we are 54 trillion dollars in debt(which we are), then tell them the only way to balance that out is to cut all social spending, to include Medicare and Social security(which is true). How many so called "Liberals" would cut it? How many conservatives? The answer is none, no one, Republican or Democrat would do that, even though that is the only way to stave off national bankruptcy. Why? Because they would never get re-elected.

Right, Left, Republican, Democrat..... doesn't matter. They all eventually become fascist. The only thing that they give a rats ass about it serving as many terms as the possibly can. Which is why there is no such thing as change in DC.

[edit on 11-6-2009 by aravoth]

I see disinfo and deflection abounds on the grounds of ATS.

Put it this way... How many neo nazi KKK members do you have marching in liberal gay rights parades?

Neo Nazis and the Klan are fundamentalist conservatives. Sorry guys but Fascist ideologies are as right wing as it's going to get. Hannity, Limbaugh Coulter, Bush and co. It's all leaning to the right. And the right includes the KKK and neo nazis like yalls good buddy Von Brunn.

I certainly doubt that Von Brunn voted for Obama.

I think we are seeing the final death throws of the GOP.

Originally posted by aravoth
The National Socialist Party (Nazi) was left wing. It is a historical fact.

Well, you're wrong.

From Wiki:

Nazism is often considered by scholars to be a form of fascism. While it incorporated elements from both left and right-wing politics, the Nazis formed most of their alliances on the right.[9] The Nazis were one of several historical groups that used the term National Socialism to describe themselves, and in the 1920s they became the largest such group. The Nazi Party presented its program in the 25 point National Socialist Program in 1920. Among the key elements of Nazism were anti-parliamentarism, Pan-Germanism, racism, collectivism,[10][11] eugenics, antisemitism, anti-communism, totalitarianism and opposition to economic liberalism and political liberalism.

Emphasis mine.

Nazism was, on the correct political compass, slightly right and mostly top. In other words, it was mostly authoritarian and slightly conservative.

It's also a well-propagated myth that the Nazis were socialist, because of the name. The fact is national socialism has nothing to do with true socialism, which is closer to communism and was despised by Hitler. As another poster said earlier, National Fascist party would have been a much more appropriate name.

Also, if you look at the political compass you will see that Hitler leaned to the right, although only slightly.


Left vs. Right has nothing to do with fascism. I repeat, Left vs. Right has nothing to do with fascism. Authoritarianism = fascism, and we have to remember that most of the leaders we elect in this country, whether they are left-leaning or right-leaning, are authoritarian in nature. The reason leftism and rightism are stressed so much in modern politics, is to distract the populace from that fact.

Originally posted by drwizardphd

Authoritarianism = fascism, and we have to remember that most of the leaders we elect in this country, whether they are left-leaning or right-leaning, are authoritarian in nature. The reason leftism and rightism are stressed so much in modern politics, is to distract the populace from that fact.

Perfect. When we realize this and stop labeling them as just right and just left, we'll realize that neither of us want AUTHORITARIAN.

Once we realize they are all "out to get us" (aka authoritarian) and not on "your side" or "my side", then maybe we can finally unite and stand up against those pieces of doggy doo-doo.