Holocaust Museum Suspect Was a 9/11 "Truther"

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Of course the Hollocust happened but it was not all about Jews

This man wasn’t a revisionist; he was a holocaust denier who supported Hitler.

Unlike you and I, this man was actually old enough to have witnessed some of these events first hand.

That has absolutely nothing to do with this topic; plenty of people his age viewed the same things and completely disagree with his views and actions.

I don't think anyone human being is beyond redemption

Neither do I. That doesn’t mean that their past transgression simply wash away though, and this man doesn’t seem like he wanted redemption. This man had no redeeming qualities. He was a racist psychopath who believed in a host of neo-nazi nonsense instead of being a true independent thinker.

This is what maybe you don't get, that a lot of average people alive at the time didn't get...some rather notable people supported Hitler.

Names like Rockefeller, Harriman, DuPont, Carnegie, Mellon, Morgan, Warburg, Ford and Bush to name just a few.

Many of them were Zionists, and they were his principal funders.

Many of them were hauled before Congress in 1942 because Esso (Standard Oil/Exxon) had things like a Gasoline Station in Auschwitz. Prescott Bush the former President's Grandfather owned two companies in occupied Poland that used slave labor from Auschwitz.

Forget about the Neo-Nazis, we were/are the Nazis!

It shames me too, but believe me when I say, it was American businessmen who made both Mousselini and Hitler, funded their rise to power and publicly touted the values of facism as being supperior to our own democracy.

There is so much you don't know about what went on then, and some of them are so dark and evil that they make Hitler look like a choir boy, really and truly.

The truth is a very precious commodity, and very hard to come by.

I could tell you so many things you would probably say are a blatant lie, but if you went back and read the Newspapers as they were unfolding, you would see, hey, that really is what happened.

Israel has hijacked the Hollocust for political reasons, the Catholics and Jews still fight over who really should have primary pecking rights to Auschwitz to this day. A lot more Catholic Poles than Jews died there, but politics is politics.

There is though as I stated a real danger in hijacking history, in that it does lead to inflamed passions that aren't really based on truth but supposition, and it leads groups in manipulated forms of divide and conquer warfare to become their own worst enemies in the process.

We are in basic agreement on the fact that the man was a racist, and unhinged, there is no dispute there.

What we are in disagreement on is why he chose that target and why he chose now even more importantly.

Example the GM Bailouts, people decry them and vent anger over them. Yet the reality is GM's troubles are because it's the nations second largest company and employer and their revenues are down 58 percent not because of bad products but because of frozen credit markets. GM has been in business a 100 years and is linked to our national security because come a big war, they are the ones who can whip out the tanks and trucks, but even still more importantly, over that hundred years in business they have paid many billions more in local, state and Federal Taxes than the government is buying into them for, and the millions of people, yes millions who would actually loose jobs if GM went under pay a whole lot of taxes too.

But the Powers that Be want to break up the Union, and they know it's going to take big dollars to tool up for new green technology now that we have hit peak oil.

So people who know nothing about how General Motors is really structured, or how intrinsic it really is to the economy, and all the benefits it has from everything to local charity, to funding government on all levels, to having given away more safety patents than all the other car companies combined, just love to kick them.

Because they are frustrated and upset right now over the economy and politics and they want something to kick.

Whether it really deserves one or not.

GM has made some mistakes but most people kick them for the wrong things, and false things.

Most people don't care about the whole story.

I always want the whole story, not just the story that makes me feel good or angry, or good because it makes me angry.

Social economic conditions lead to things like this mans attack, you can denounce the man for them, but that doesn't do one thing to prevent another man from succumbing to the same social economic pressures.

Change those, and men like this, no longer exist.

Doing the wrong thing by the way, isn't really that far different from doing nothing.

Not asking real questions, and trying to get to the real truth, is what has kept this silly world in this insane cycle of violence for 2,000 years now.

That blood is on all of our hands, yours too, and they will only ever get clean when everyone including you and me, takes responsibility for how our own dysfunctions play into all that.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

This is what maybe you don't get, that a lot of average people alive at the time didn't get...some rather notable people supported Hitler.

So? That doesn’t make it right. This man was not one of those people, this man was living here, in the now, in 2009 and he was still supporting Hitler and supported Hitler’s actions.

Forget about the Neo-Nazis, we were/are the Nazis!

Name me one politician in America who supports the current neo-nazi agenda and their purported history. You’re stuck in the past; we’ve moved on from that, everyone is not guilty of being a neo-nazi now because some prominent people in the past supported neo-nazi ideas.

Israel has hijacked the Hollocust for political reasons,

This is an entirely different debate. Now you’re just going on tangent after tangent. I have no interest in going off topic with you.

That blood is on all of our hands, yours too, and they will only ever get clean when everyone including you and me, takes responsibility for how our own dysfunctions play into all that.

Everyone in the world being culpable for some things does not excuse the actions of a deranged murderer and does not excuse his desire to be violent and willfully ignorant because of his deluded racism.

It has occurred to me that maybe, I say maybe, we do share a fair bit of responsibility for these situations.

When you have all this bloody corruption all around you and you try to inform and you try to fight it, only to lose everything, what remains?

When you are marginalized as "lunatic" and extremist when you state obvious facts and fight fairy-tales about passports falling off exploding planes and melting buildings, what do you do?

And you my fellow Americans, are the luckiest! When a foreign military superpower comes, "liberates" your natural resources and re-installs the next puppet government (because the previous was also theirs) while killing the people you love in the process what the heck will you do? I will tell you, what! You fight for the obvious and that my friend will make you a terrorist! A starving terrorist! A lone man that will most probably die like hundreds of thousands do every year and no-one will notice and say the poor, innocent guy like we do for this guard.

A terrorist for not following the mass media lies! A terrorist for anything that goes against the plans of TPTB. So much for your freedom fellows, you are now going one after another! More and more posts come up, labeling groups with different thinking or values as extremists. Heck, even in here in ATS a thread pooped up asking for monitoring of certain types and CIA/FBI co-operation. *WE* are asking for it.

What I am trying to say: It's all *our* fault. It's not the government. It's not the corrupt politicians that fight the wars and die. Our *"brave" soldiers do. It's not the corrupt politicians, nor the Bilderbergs that starve to death en masse while the master next to you has private jets, yachts and the like. It's not the computers that elect all these puppets we see on t.v.. It's not G.M.'s C.E.O. that drives all these millions of S.U.V.s, its not the big petroleum companies that have not installed solar panels. It's all us pointing fingers on each other trying to live the "best" we can in our little consumerist pitiful lives by ruining others.

*We* cause thinking individuals to flip like this and commit atrocious acts, that are in truth only drops in the ocean compared to what's happening every day around this planet. Yes, the poor innocent private guard but hell yes the poor innocent palestine boy that got killed like his brother fighting for the right to... live!?

If you expect things to magically turn without bloodshed and killings of many "innocent" guys that feed this situation then stop it. Don't go fight these wars. Do not fund them. Do not elect these leaders. Go bomb the FED, but first evacuate it But if you dont fight it with your last breath then expect *anything* from others that can't just take no more of this crap. Because your life is no more important than theirs.

thesdocos

*"brave" soldiers are not brave at all! Say whatever you want, but I will ask you just one simple question:
What if no-one volunteered to raise a gun and fight his neighbor? *NO-ONE*? Then what? It's all our bloody fault...

heres something you guys may find interesting...
it seems the racist website that was linked to vonbrunn is actually registered to someone else? hmmm...
www.whois.net...

Very nice finding mate

Here is the other guy's myspace page.
Notice the flags etc

thesdocos

he signed a petition - so freaking what ??? calling him a truther and using his actions to demonise the ` truth ` fallacy is just assanine

reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage


Maybe it would be better to say he is still an admirer of Hitler since it’s pretty hard to support a dead person’s actions.

That man was also living then too by the way, and was in intelligence in the U.S. Military.

To my knowledge the CIA does not publish a public daily tabloid of all the things they want to know and strive to find out about the world that once they do they then place out for public consumption.

What they do though instead is provide the people who are going to disseminate information what they believe is really going on, and then let those people decide what if anything is actually going to be disseminated from the actual intelligence.

This is why you hear “National Security” evoked constantly as a reason for non-disclosure of a fact, and the occasional Senator and Congressman saying “That’s bleep, bleep, bleep, what do I look like I fell off a turnip truck?”

As far as the Neo-Nazi Agenda, I would ask you what Major League Baseball Fan is going to support trading in his tickets to game 7 of the World Series to go see game one of the Little League Baseball Series in Williamsburg Pennsylvania that his child is not playing in, and isn’t a pedophile or a major league scout.

The reality is just about ALL of our politicians are REAL Nazis.

That Israel has hijacked the Holocaust for political reasons and distorted the true view of Nazis as simply ‘racist’ people is the real danger to humanity because it makes REAL Nazis much harder to identify.

Jews weren’t targeted by the Nazis simply because of their race, though Israelis would love for you to imagine they were. They weren’t targeted by the Nazis simply because of their spirituality even though the Israelis would love for you to imagine they were…

They were targeted though for their politics against first the German State and then the Nazi State as were many other groups of POLITICAL dissidents.

You don’t need to be a Jew or Black to run afoul of REAL Nazis, you just have to be someone who opposes their POLITICAL agenda, or stands in the way of it.

That is the real danger in hijacking history and distorting it for political purposes is real Nazis no longer look like REAL Nazis because they aren’t doing the things the pseudo Neo-Nazis who aren’t Nazis at all but simple bigots who imagine that’s what the Nazis were all about.

Nazism is about a one party corporate state where the state is all things in all ways for the sake of dollars and cents.
Our Government is full of real Nazis and thanks to revisionist history, most people would not recognize a Nazi if they saw one, just as by the way much to your likely chagrin and disagreement if a real high ranking Nazi walked into a Neo-Nazi meeting they would likely say “Huh? Do you really think this is all Nazism is about?” The real Nazis would likely in fact have the Neo-Nazis executed for forming a rival power group, just like Hitler had the SA eliminated when it grew to be potentially as strong and influential as the Nazi Party itself was.

That’s what makes this all on topic, even though it doesn’t fit in to the compact tidy little idea of “This man was a racist so lets just throw the baby out with the bathwater, and lets not check to see what all was in the water first”.

As far as everyone being culpable for a lot of bad and unjust things no it does not excuse the man’s actions, but neither does it conversely excuse the bad and unjust things that everyone is culpable for either.

What you might not get is that is what fosters the environment where people do become willfully ignorant and racist because they just like it appears you might be doing, aren’t really interested in getting to all the facts and learning everything that’s pertinent but just enough to form your own stereo types that are based on rejecting all elements of anyone who fits that stereo typical pattern instead of just those elements you disagree with.

The danger in that is that people who fall into that trap will never be able to have a qualitative discussion with the people they disagree with that leads to the real exchange of information that breaks down stereo types, ignorance and false perceptions and assumptions and the hatred that leads to conflict where it always takes TWO to tango, even though both are usually insistent they really don’t want to have to dance at all except that the other side is ‘forcing’ them too.

Divide and conquer...

The MSM will use this angle of this man's life to push an agenda from higher up to totally discredit the Truth movement and to basically try to shut down Anybody that questions our government, it's policies or it's bedfellows (Israel)

reply to ProtoplasmicTraveler

In your initial posts, despite the prospects of getting attacked, you gave the thread a direly need important direction for inquiry. The generous and thoughtful effort you made in setting the record straight after being hit with a hand full of shallow knee jerk reactions, is no less then stellar. Your level of understanding is deep, broad and dead on target. Kudos and bravo dear sir

It's been fascinating to see the charges brought up against your insights on this matter. Amazes me that people are so quick to write someone off without taking into consideration all the layers to this complicated man. The pattern i see with the typical masses responses to news like this is very disturbing, which you have accurately pointed out is the main reason why we are in this mess... everything stays at the surface tied up in emotional banter. We all need to strive to place ourselves and others above the trees so we can see the forest for what it is... and encourage each other to review these topics/issues with greater integrity, compassion and scholarship... just as you have

As we know, and more should... the powers that be know how the majority of us lead our heads with our hearts and play to this weakness at every opportunity made and/or claimed.

How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think. ~ Adolf Hitler

The only way for us to clean house and get back on track... is together. We have to collectively reach higher, further and deeper to gain the sight of reality. Unfortunately left to our on inherited devices we are as blind as those in plato's cave.

Another Peter Finch clip from the Network that helps to illustrate and illuminate for those who are still confused, clueless and willfully have their heads in the sand or up their own bum.

Google Video Link

[edit on 11-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

To speak more directly to the label of "murderer" for those who have such a hangup. Let's be honest with ourselves and one another... who hasn't felt the urge to end the life of another? Leave your impulsive urge to judge and condemn at bay while answering this question.

I would venture to say that we all have, the only difference is that very few act on this killer instinct that resides in all of us. But the fact remains we are all murderers in thought vs action. So by putting von brunn's ultimate act to the side for a moment, we can see him versus not being able to see him behind the label "murderer"... same applies for the "racist" label.

The peeling back of these layers is not an action in advocating their premise, what you are doing is getting to the source of this man's beliefs and actions.

Do this simple task and see your objectivity and level of understanding expand.

[edit on 11-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

reply to post by LiquidMirage


Yep, people forget that every hate based group in this great nation of ours has felt Justified and acted as if they were patriots...

reply to post by The All Seeing I


Yes, and it following your exercise makes it all the more clear why this man should be removed from society....

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

This is what maybe you don't get, that a lot of average people alive at the time didn't get...some rather notable people supported Hitler.

So? That doesn’t make it right. This man was not one of those people, this man was living here, in the now, in 2009 and he was still supporting Hitler and supported Hitler’s actions.

Forget about the Neo-Nazis, we were/are the Nazis!

Name me one politician in America who supports the current neo-nazi agenda and their purported history. You’re stuck in the past; we’ve moved on from that, everyone is not guilty of being a neo-nazi now because some prominent people in the past supported neo-nazi ideas.

Israel has hijacked the Hollocust for political reasons,

This is an entirely different debate. Now you’re just going on tangent after tangent. I have no interest in going off topic with you.

That blood is on all of our hands, yours too, and they will only ever get clean when everyone including you and me, takes responsibility for how our own dysfunctions play into all that.

Everyone in the world being culpable for some things does not excuse the actions of a deranged murderer and does not excuse his desire to be violent and willfully ignorant because of his deluded racism.

Once again I am sooo glad you are a member of this forum

There are way too many crackpots on here and it's good to see cooler heads prevail...

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by The All Seeing I

 

Yes, and it following your exercise makes it all the more clear why this man should be removed from society....

Taking the big picture that has been painted into full consideration, it's important to walk this through to it's conclusion... which is that all 911 truthers should be removed from society.

As for your applause...

There are way too many crackpots on here and it's good to see cooler heads prevail...

You can't be serious? If so, then it just shows how little you choose to see.

[edit on 11-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

Originally posted by The All Seeing I

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by The All Seeing I

 

Yes, and it following your exercise makes it all the more clear why this man should be removed from society....

Taking the big picture that has been painted into full consideration, it's important to walk this through to it's conclusion... which is that all 911 truthers should be removed from society.

As for your applause...

There are way too many crackpots on here and it's good to see cooler heads prevail...

You can't be serious? If so, then it just shows how little you choose to see.

[edit on 11-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

Wow... what a white wash.... You had said that just because he was a murderer and a racist that we should see that we have those inclinations as well..

Agreed...

But then I realized that if I actually acted on those, then I should be removed from society... So my conclusion was that THIS GUY should be removed form society...

I NEVER SAID THAT TRUTHERS SHOULD BE REMOVED!!!!

Why do you twist peoples words to suit your worldview? Well I know the answer to that... it's a human thing to do. But please check yourself in the future before you do.

Wonder why this is receiving so much attention. Hmm. How many heard about this? Muslim convert shoots and kills American Soldier in Arkansas

Where is the coverage and outrage over this?

reply to post by LiquidMirage


HEY ! Wait just a godamn minuite. When it comes down to it , the belief that the US Gov commited a treason on 9/11 doesnt make you an anti semite. Lets be clear , just because the mentaly stunted piece of genetic trash who shot up the Holocaust museum was linked to white supremacists (something we all agree should be removed from the face of the earth I think) , does not mean that everyone, or even a major portion of truthers have the same beliefs.
Just from physical evidence alone, there is no way planes OR fire bought those towers down, and you have people like Issac Newton to argue with over that particular point. I say again, just because this one guy who shot up the museum (a thoroughly deplorable act ) , was scum , doesnt mean everyone who thinks that way is . Please stop generalising so damned much!

reply to post by HunkaHunka


Talk about a twist... you really aren't reading all of the posts in this thread are you... skimming through at best? If you really care about this topic, re-read my posts and while you are at it read ALL of PPT's posts thoroughly... this man is no, as you put it, 'crackpot'... then make a post and it will more likely be a worthwhile contribution to the conversation at hand.

[edit on 11-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
To speak more directly to the label of "murderer" for those who have such a hangup. Let's be honest with ourselves and one another... who hasn't felt the urge to end the life of another? Leave your impulsive urge to judge and condemn at bay while answering this question.

Good point... however, once someone shoots another out of malice... they are a murderer...

That man should be removed from society because he obviously does not understand how to operate within it.

I would venture to say that we all have, the only difference is that very few act on this killer instinct that resides in all of us. But the fact remains we are all murderers in thought vs action.

Yep, but once that action is made... thats a HUGE distinction...

So by putting von brunn's ultimate act to the side for a moment, we can see him versus not being able to see him behind the label "murderer"... same applies for the "racist" label.

I really don't care to see him. Anyone who acts irrationally doesn't deserve rational thought from me. Cart him off...

The peeling back of these layers is not an action in advocating their premise, what you are doing is getting to the source of this man's beliefs and actions.

Yes I agree we need to understand what prompted this... however, it doesn't change the fact that it happened!

You act like the man didn't shoot anyone... he did....

As far as why he did it? He can tell that to the judge.

Do this simple task and see your objectivity and level of understanding expand.

[edit on 11-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

I agree... take a look at yourself and you can look at others differently....

But I also agree that doesn't remove the consequences of his actions...

REMOVE HIM FROM SOCIETY.

reply to post by The All Seeing I

In your initial posts, despite the prospects of getting attacked, you gave the thread a direly need important direction for inquiry. The generous and thoughtful effort you made in setting the record straight after being hit with a hand full of shallow knee jerk reactions, is no less then stellar. Your level of understanding is deep, broad and dead on target. Kudos and bravo dear sir

Thank you dear Sir for those supportive words, I thought long and hard about whether to hit submit on that post knowing it would stir up a passionate response on the part of a lot of people, I won’t deny I was a little fearful and hesitant but if we all shy away from the controversies that are plaguing us right now how do we ever effectively deal with them beyond just blindly hoping they and time themselves will sort them all out satisfactorily.

People would be well served engaging in dialogues on the deeper underlying issues even though obviously because so many people have self serving agendas that are entirely about class distinction they fear anything that might alter the status quo as being a loose, loose situation instead of a win, win situation if it leads to greater and deeper understanding and respect.

Making good come out of tragedy is not easy and it’s a real tragedy when ever anyone dies a violent death.

Much to my surprise but not really, knowing how many here on ATS such as yourself will ‘challenge’ people to think, I awoke this morning to find that the forum staff of ATS had applauded my efforts on this thread four different times.

I sure don’t pretend to have all the answers or to be ‘right’ and I don’t think that the forum staff was applauding me for anything but my ‘tenacity’ and ‘well mannered’ desired to not ‘accept’ just any answer, but to probe and ‘challenge’ others to dig a bit deeper into the issue to look for real answers that go far beyond and can potentially accomplish much more than just the obvious reactionary non-answers that are often little more than scathing indictment and rejection of what most if not all of us find objectionable in base human behavior.

People in my humble opinion are products of their own unique environments and the sum total of their own experiences.

The world changes for the better in my humble opinion when we look to other environments with an inquisitive eye and ear looking to understand them rather than simply rejecting them for superficial appearances that can often be deceiving.

Getting people to step out of their comfort zones is never easy, and it’s rarely comfortable for the person stepping out of it, or the person trying to get others to step out of it, but it’s a vital process to learning and growing and aspiring to the highest common denominator and not the lowest common denominator.

It's been fascinating to see the charges brought up against your insights on this matter. Amazes me that people are so quick to write someone off without taking into consideration all the layers to this complicated man. The pattern i see with the typical masses responses to news like this is very disturbing, which you have accurately pointed out is the main reason why we are in this mess... everything stays at the surface tied up in emotional banter. We all need to strive to place ourselves and others above the trees so we can see the forest for what it is... and encourage each other to review these topics/issues with greater integrity, compassion and scholarship... just as you have

When the Mufti of Jerusalem coined the term Status Quo to formalize the arrangement of dividing Jerusalem between all the sects that see it as Holy and relevant I doubt he had any idea just what a powerful term he was coining. Maybe he did though?

Getting people to break the Status Quo is hard because almost everyone in life because of the scarcity paradigm that the Powers that Be rule us with, are more focused on and afraid of loss than gain.

The idea of loosing one’s place in the Status Quo of things becomes a more powerful motivator for people to defend the often indefensible by making it seem defendable and virtuous rather than willingly letting it go and stepping outside that box to see what can be built in lowering their defenses.

The amazing thing about the Status Quo is everyone perceives themselves as a looser in it already while perceiving everyone else a winner in it that has more or something that they shouldn’t.

Ultimately people have to lower their defenses and ‘the best defense is a good offense’ if they ever want to really understand other ethnological groupings and forge truly productive bonds with them.

It’s amazing to think that humans share more similarities that dissimilarities but people fail to recognize that you can’t build on the dissimilar but the similar. You can tear down and destroy the dissimilar but you can’t build on it, but you can build on the similar and make what you build even stronger because of the diversity to the structure the dissimilar provide.

As we know, and more should... the powers that be know how the majority of us lead our heads with our hearts and play to this weakness at every opportunity made and/or claimed.

The Powers that Be are the Powers that Be because they have the ability to think in detached ways one, two, three even more steps ahead.

I have no doubt whatsoever as the Truth Movement grows they will find a way to usurp it for their own different agenda and will be able to easily do so because of the often purely emotional way people think.


The only way for us to clean house and get back on track... is together. We have to collectively reach higher, further and deeper to gain the sight of reality. Unfortunately left to our on inherited devices we are as blind as those in plato's cave.


On a universal scale we are all tasked with defining a finite portion of it through our own self discovery and intimate interaction with it. Humanity takes a step forward when people can report back their findings to others who aren’t thinking about maintaining the Status Quo but thinking about the endless possibility that additional and greater knowledge creates.

One of the big challenges is that religions are ‘dead’ in the sense that they don’t evolve. With so many people putting absolute faith in the guidance of a non-interactive deity that does not communicate directly, but through a ‘closed’ book that nothing new is ever written in to by that deity all it leaves is people struggling through that closed circuit going round and round in many ways trying to make what’s ‘closed’ lead to something ‘open’ which is virtually impossible because of the closed and static nature of the teachings and the prophecies.

It’s hard to get and think outside of the box, when the box has been taped shut.

So we cycle and recycle the same circular logic that only becomes logic because anything more logical is rejected as illogical because it wasn’t originally enclosed in that 2,000 year old box.

I don’t see that as a way forward but as an eternal trap, and in essence people have been taught to believe it’s impossible to create heaven on earth, and to accept a less than perfect existence here, with perfect acceptance, to gain a perfect existence elsewhere in another form in yet another life.

How can we move forward and address hard questions when so many people are married to the Status Quo?

It sure won't be easy, but for the love of humanity we all must try to do what we can in my humble opinion.

You have taught me some things here on ATS friend, and for those things I thank you kindly and respectfully.

I am easy though to teach, as I truly always enjoy learning. I am not a closed universe.

I doubt this man was either, and I am sure the sum total of his knowledge vastly excedes just the surface blemishes that will cause him to live in infamy, but as I look around the world today, we all live in infamy.