The Anti-Christ and His New World Order Revealed

reply to post by Bombeni


Because logic and circular reasoning are thrown around by people that have evidently no idea what those terms mean. IMO and experience when someone accuses someone of circular reasoning when it is absolutely not then there is no point in continuing the conversation. Besides this is somewhat off the topic in the end...

Obama is a human being. One that sometimes I agree with and I think overall means well. 50 mil people without health care in the greatest country on earth is a prob, sorry.

reply to post by Bombeni


Umm I'm sorry to tell you that the war he is describing is setting the stage for Anti-Christ Maitreya to come and "end the war and the New World Order even though they will pretend to abolish the NWO and take up the reigns with the rebel angels and Nephilim to implement it and try to mix seeds and defile humanity again with the Anti-Christ trying to convert all to Satan. Gog and Magog involves Russia and major conflict so that the man of sin can step in and pose as savior. He will set up peace under global dictatorship with his counterfeit holy ones "aliens." He will allow them(Jewish People) to rebuild the Temple. He will win over all of humanity with his many Ascended Masters (fallen angels that can change appearance including to look like the Jesus in paintings and Buddha etc. but their true form is probably the gray type look.) So in doing so he will pose as many expected messiahs of all religions into one guy. Maitreya World Teacher. Jack Van Impe is obviously setting us up for Anti-Christ with all his 2012 talk and citing some Revelation judgments have already been manifest. Yeshua the Messiah comes with His holy ones the angels and saints that were taken up to Him during the Tribulation. He will defeat Anti-Christ and his armies in a war involving all the nations in the plains of Megiddo in Israel. He comes on a white war horse with a white robe dipped in blood, wielding His weapon of the Word of God from His mouth, not in a UFO.

reply to post by watchtheashes


Why would he be on a horse in this day and age?

Originally posted by Bombeni

Originally posted by miragezero
reply to post by moocowman

 

Give it up man, the light is not going to come on for them. Let them continue to sling verses at eachother... Thank god for the Novus Ordo Seclorum they so despise otherwise this would be the middle east part deux.

Why would you ask him to give it up when he is just about to find the truth? All kidding aside. He asked for prayer only a couple of hours ago.

The irony being, if jesusyawhe knocked my door came in for coffee and a natter and explained everything to me you would call me a delusional liar, and crawl back into your imaginary world.

You see, people like yourself cannot have jesus going around meeting and speaking with people.
Why ?
Because it would destroy you knowing that he has not spoken to you, so your sanity cannot afford to have a real jesus out and about telling how it is.

Why would Jesus need a UFO? People that say "this day and age" are the ones that will probably fall for Anti-Christ. Satan has rule over the planets of the solar system of the Earth and the atmosphere and vicinity outside of the Earth because it's where the rebel angels dwell. The Nephilim are being manufactured by their abducting us. The Illuminati and government sold us out in exchange for technology and power just like the Watchers taught men so long ago until the lot of them rebelled in the Watcher's Rebellion. Not to be confused with Satan's rebellion. You'll find they have been trying to give us forbidden technology for centuries and cities like Atlantis can be explained by such dealings of the Watchers. The government wants you to THINK they are from far away or that they know secrets of aliens when all they really found out is that they are rebel angels posing as such and still must keep that secret because one of the prime directives is to discredit what Yeshua did on the cross and Christ's followers. An alien landing where Maitreya and a fake "Master Jesus" that looks like the paintings we see everywhere will be a grand deception in Satan's scheme. It's part of the lying signs and wonders that John describes. He also clearly depicts what we would understand today as an "alien" invasion.

Also there is no way you can explain why the moon turns red when a major change is happening for God's people and the world and it's always on Jewish Feast Holidays four times in a row. This has only happened when there is a major conflict or massive change involving the Holy Land and His People.

Originally posted by miragezero
reply to post by Bombeni

 

Because logic and circular reasoning are thrown around by people that have evidently no idea what those terms mean. IMO and experience when someone accuses someone of circular reasoning when it is absolutely not then there is no point in continuing the conversation. Besides this is somewhat off the topic in the end...

Obama is a human being. One that sometimes I agree with and I think overall means well. 50 mil people without health care in the greatest country on earth is a prob, sorry.

Please enlighten us, OH wise one. What is your conception of circular reasoning? What is your definition of logic?

And why is there a problem with my lack of health care? What precisely is it to you, that you should worry over it?

Seems to me if that were a problem, then it would be MY problem, not the government's, to fix.

reply to post by miragezero

Obama is a human being. One that sometimes I agree with and I think overall means well. 50 mil people without health care in the greatest country on earth is a prob, sorry.

If those 50 million are xtians then I think it would be logical that they don't need health care.

Xtians simply have to pray to their Jesus god as apparently illness is caused by "demons" according to the majority of xtians that I've spoken to.

So if you come across an xtian with health insurance, know that person is a liar and does not believe that praying to jesus works.

Likewise if you come across an xtian with 10+ Year Mortgage know that this person is also full of BS, as clearly they don't belieev jesuyahweh is coming back very soon.


Why on earth would an Xtian need a pension? we may also ask , if the these are the end of days, obviously xtians really don't believe it as they're still planning their retirement.

Why on earth are xtian parents saving money to put their young child through college if these are the end of days ? Clearly they don't believe the bull crap they spout.


It never ceases to amaze me why, members of the xtian cult, whose leader proclaims "Give no thought to tomorrow" discard your possessions and hate your family and follow me. Are so preoccupied with planning their future material wealth and security.

One of the most xtian nations on the planet has so little faith in it's jesusgods ability to provide, that its' out and about warring against other nations, in order to steal their resources such as oil to secure their future needs.

reply to post by moocowman


I noticed that you seem to have an aversion to the word "Christian"... instead writing it "xtian". At least that's what I take "xtian" to mean.

If you are capable of being truly objectively insightful, I think you will find this is not without reason.

Personally, I attribute it to subconsious fear. Fear of the name of the Messiah.

Oh, I'm sure you will attribute it to your conception of issuing veiled insults to "xtians". I'm sure you can rationalize your ingrained "need" to stir the pot...

Ask yourself: Where do I get that "need"? Where does this supreme irritation originate?

Prove me wrong, oh demander of proof!


I (a Christian, not an xtian...) already know the answer, plain as day. Take off your blinders, and please realize that there is much more behind the scenes.

There's a war on for your soul. Who do you feel is winning that war at this point?

EDIT: changed to first person.

[edit on 27/6/09 by cbianchi513]

I still believe in miracles and I'm sure we can faith heal. But remember what is said in the gospels:

Luke 18:8 "I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

Man you guys are in for one rude awakening either way. If you don't think the NWO is coming as predicted by Daniel in his vision of the beast kingdom with metal teeth at the end of times then you're in for a surprise.

There are Scriptures yet to be fulfilled and everything written about Yeshua will be fulfilled.

ne of the most xtian nations on the planet

Okay, America is the political Babylon of the End Times.

Here is why:

To hold the view that this Babylon is referring to the Vatican, you basically ignore 98% of the Scriptures referring to it and hold to one verse that can be easily discredited because a misunderstanding of one term in one verse that can easily be clarified. That is how warped the whole Vatican theory is that most churches and prophecy 'gurus' preach today when it comes to Revelation chapters 17 and 18. Why? Why do they want the focus on somewhere else instead of where the Bible is really speaking of?

Consider this: The former prophets all warned of this coming Great Babylon. Let's look at what each one said about it:

Isaiah said:

1. Babylon would be noted for its architecture, buildings and skyline (Isaiah 13:22)

2. Is the lone super power of the world (Isaiah 47:5,8)

3. Is the most respected and envied around the world and yet at the same time is hated by the world. (Isaiah 18:2)

4. Has a unique and remarkable beginning, different from other nations and has been awe-inspiring from it's conception. (Isaiah 18:2).

5. Babylon would the QUEEN AMONG THE NATIONS (Isa 47:5,7)

6. Babylon would be an END TIME GREAT NATION (Rev 17,18; Isa 13:6)

7. Babylon is called a lady, and has the symbol of the Lady (Isa 47:7-9). "LIBERTY" on our money, and sits in the New York Harbor.

8. Babylon is nation "peeled", or timbered, a land of open fields (Isa 18:2).

9. Babylon is land quartered by mighty rivers (Isa 18:2).

10. Babylon is a land that is measured out, and populated throughout (Isa 18:2).

11. Babylon destroys her own land, with pollution and waste (Isa 14:20, 18:2, 7).

12. Babylon is the leading INDUSTRIAL NATION OF THE WORLD

13. Babylon has a huge aviation program (Isa 14:13-14;

14. Babylon is a REPUBLIC or a DEMOCRACY, it is ruled by many counsels (Isa 47:13).

15. Babylon's governmental system breaks down (Isa 47:13).

16. Babylon is bogged down with deliberations and cannot govern properly (Isa 47:13).

17. Babylon's leaders use astrology, seers and mystics for guidance (Isa 47:13; Rev 18:2).

18. Babylon labored in the occult from her very inception (Isa 47:12).

19. Babylon is a nation of religious confusion (Isa 47:12-13).

20. THE KING OF BABYLON is called LUCIFER, the ANTICHRIST (Isa 14:4-6).

21. The King of Babylon will rule from THE GREAT CITY BABYLON (Isa 14:4-6; Rev 17: 18).

22. A world government entity will rise up to rule the world from BABYLON THE CITY

23. This entity will rise up and use the military power of Babylon the nation to RULE THE WORLD (Isa 14:4-6;

24.Babylon is a nation of higher education and learning (Isa47:10, implied throughout).

25. Babylon is a VIRGIN NATION, her lands untouched by major war (Isa 47:1).9. Babylon's enemy will lie on the opposite side of the world,over the poles (Isa 13:5)

26. The enemy of Babylon will be noted for her cruelty (Isa 13,14, Jer 50, 51, Rev 17, 18).

27. The people of Babylon would think they are God's elect and eternal (Isa 47:7-8,

28. The nation Babylon dwells carelessly before the Lord (Isa 47:8).

29. Babylon becomes proud, haughty, and does not consider her end (Isa 47:7-8).

30. Babylon deals in the occult, in sorceries and drugs (Isa 47:9, 12; Rev 18:23)

31. The people of Babylon are deep into astrology and spiritism (Isa 47:12; Rev 18:2).

32. Babylon's enemy will lie on the opposite side of the world,over the poles (Isa 13:5)

Jeremiah prophesied:

1. Babylon would be the center of a one world Luciferian religious movement (Jer 51:44)

2. Babylon would be the youngest and greatest of the end time nations (Jer 50:12). USA

3. Babylon would be the most powerful nation in the world (Isa 47, Jer 50, 51, Rev 18). USA

4. Babylon would be the HAMMER OF THE WHOLE EARTH (Jer 50:23; Rev 18:23). USA

5. Babylon would be the praise of the WHOLE EARTH (Jer 51:41). USA

6. Babylon is a land rich in mineral wealth (Jer 51:13).

7. Babylon is a the leading agricultural nation of the world (Jer 50, 51; Rev 18).

8. Babylon is the leading exporting nation in the world (Jer 51:13; Rev 18).

9. Babylon is the leading importing nation of the entire world.(Jer 50, 51; Rev 18).

10. Babylon is a nation filled with warehouses and granaries (Jer 50:26).

11. Babylon is the leading INDUSTRIAL NATION OF THE WORLD (Isa 13, 47, Jer 50, 51; Rev 18).

12. Babylon is noted for her horses (Jer 50:37). Think Kentucky

13. Babylon is noted for her cattle, sheep and other livestock (Jer 50:26, 27; Rev 18:13).

14. Babylon is noted for her fine flour and mill operations (Rev 18:13)

15. Babylon is a nation of farmers and harvests huge crops (Jer 50:16, 26, 27).28. Babylon has a huge aviation program (Isa 14:13-14; Jer 51:53; Hab 1:6-10).

16. Babylon's skies are filled with the whisper of aircraft wings (Isa 18:1; Jer 51:53).

17. Babylon has a huge space industry, has "mounted up to the heavens" (Jer 51:53).

18. Babylon fortifies her skies with a huge military aviation program (Jer 51:53).

19. Babylon is portrayed as a leading in high tech weapons and abilities (Jer 51:53; Hab 1:6-10; implied throughout).

20. Babylon is a coastal nation and sits upon MANY WATERS (Jer 51:13).

21. Babylon is nation filled with a "mingled" people (Jer 50:37).

22. Babylon is a SINGULAR NATION founded upon OUT OF MANY, ONE (Isa 13, 47, Jer 50, 51, Hab 1).

23. Babylon was born as a CHRISTIAN NATION (Jer 50:12).

24. Babylon turns upon its heritage and destroys it all in the end (Jer 50:11).

25. Babylon's Christian leaders lead their flock astray in prophecy and salvation (Jer 50:6; implied Rev 18:2).

26. Babylon's Christian leaders are "strangers" in the Lord Houses of Worship (Jer 51:51).

27. Babylon sets of detention centers for Jews and Christians and rounds them up for extermination (Jer 50:7, 33; 51:35, 49; Rev 17:6; 18:24).

28. Babylon has a mother nation that remains in existence from her birth to death (Jer 50: 12). (ENGLAND)

29. The mother of Babylon has the symbol of the LION (Dan7:4; Eze 38:13; Jer 51:38; Psalms 17:12).

30. The mother of Babylon will rule over her daughter her entire life (Dan 7:4; Jer 50:12). Follow the money, we are under total control of England's Banks, and have been since 1914

31. The mother of Babylon will be a state of major decline as the end nears (Jer 50:12).

32. Babylon is considered to be a lion's whelp (Eze 38:13; Jer 51:38).58.

33. Babylon will have the symbol of the EAGLE and builds her nest in the stars (Dan 7:4 EAGLE WINGS; Isa 14:13-14; Jer 51:53). Who else has a space program as we do?

34. Babylon is a huge producer and exporter of automobiles (Jer 50:37; Rev 18:13).

35. Babylon is a nation of CRAFTSMEN, experts in their trade (Jer 50, 51, Rev 18:22).

36. Babylon is a nation with a GREAT VOICE in world affairs (Jer 51:55)

37 .Babylon will be instrumental in the setting up of Israel in the Middle East, and is the home of God's people (Jer 50:47;51:45).

38. Babylon will have a major enemy to her north (Jer 50:3, 9, 41).

39. The enemy of Babylon will also have a huge aviation military machine (Jer 50:9, 14, Rev 18:8, 18 implied throughout).

40. Babylon will have all of her borders cut off, and there will be no way of escape (Jer 50:28; 51:32).

41. Babylon is land vast land with huge cities, towns and villages throughout (Implied throughout).

42. Babylon will have been a huge missionary nation for Jesus Christ (Jer 50:11; 51:7).

43. Babylon would be a home to multitudes of Jews who leave (Jer 50:4-6, 8; 51:6, 45)

44. The people of Babylon would not know their true identity(Jer 50:6, implied throughout).

45. The people of Babylon would grow mad upon their idols (Jer 50:2, 38; Hab 2:18).

46. How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations! -Jeremiah 50:23

47. O thou that dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness. The LORD of hosts hath sworn by himself, saying, Surely I will fill thee with men, as with caterpillars; and they shall lift up a shout against thee. -Jeremiah 51:12-14


48. Plays a leadership role in Outer Space Exploration (Jer. 51:3)

49. Is where the world's leaders meet and assemble (Jer. 51:44)

50. Incorporated many aspects of the old Babylonian religion (Jer. 50:2).



The Apostle John said in the Book of Revelation:

1. Babylon deals in the occult, in sorceries and drugs (Isa 47:9, 12; Rev 18:23)

2. The people of Babylon would go into deep sins of all kinds (Rev 18:5).

3. The people of Babylon would think they are God's elect and eternal (Isa 47:7-8, Rev 18:7).

4. The people of Babylon would enjoy the highest standard of living in the world (Rev 18:7).

5. Babylon will be destroyed by nuclear fire (Implied throughout)

6. Babylon is land vast land with huge cities, towns and villages throughout (Implied throughout).

7. The enemy of Babylon will be noted for her cruelty (Isa 13,14, Jer 50, 51, Rev 17, 18).

8. The enemy of Babylon will also have a huge aviation military machine (Jer 50:9, 14, Rev 18:8, 18 implied throughout).

9. Babylon has a vast military machine (Jer 50:36; 51:30; Hab 1 & 2, Rev 13:4).

10. This entity will rise up and use the military power of Babylon the nation to RULE THE WORLD (Isa 14:4-6; Hab 1 & 2, Rev 13, 17).

11. Babylon is a huge producer and exporter of automobiles (Jer 50:37; Rev 18:13).

12. Babylon is a nation of CRAFTSMEN, experts in their trade (Jer 50, 51, Rev 18:22).

13. Babylon is noted for her jewelry of gold and silver (Rev 18:22).

14. Babylon is a huge importer and exporter of spices (Rev 18:13).

15. Babylon is a huge exporter of fine marble products (Rev 18:22).

16. Babylon is noted for her iron and steel production (Rev 18:12).

17. Babylon has huge corporations that have bases around the world (Rev 18:23, implied throughout)

18. A world government entity will rise up to rule the world from BABYLON THE CITY (Isa 14; Hab 2, Rev 13, 17, 18).

19. Babylon turns totally antichrist and is the leading antichrist power at the end (Rev 18:2; Isa 14:4-6).

20. The King of Babylon will rule from THE GREAT CITY BABYLON (Isa 14:4-6; Rev 17: 18).

21. Babylon turns upon its own people and imprisons and slays them by millions (Jer 50:7,33; 51:35; 39; Dan 7:25; Rev 13:7;17:6; 18:24).

22. Babylon sets of detention centers for Jews and Christians and rounds them up for extermination (Jer 50:7, 33; 51:35, 49; Rev 17:6; 18:24).

23. The people of Babylon are deep into astrology and spiritism (Isa 47:12; Rev 18:2).

24. Babylon becomes the home of all antichrist religions in the world (Rev 18:2).

25. Babylon's Christian leaders lead their flock astray in prophecy and salvation (Jer 50:6; implied Rev 18:2).

26. Babylon falls to the occult just before her end by nuclear fire (Rev 18:2)

27. Babylon's leaders use astrology, seers and mystics for guidance (Isa 47:13; Rev 18:2).

28. Babylon trades with all who have ships in the sea year round(Rev 18:17-18).

29. Babylon is a nation filled with warm water seaports (Rev 18:17-19).

30. Babylon is a huge exporter of MUSIC (Rev 18:22).

31. Babylon's musicians are known around the world (Rev 18:22)

32. Babylon is noted for her cattle, sheep and other livestock (Jer 50:26, 27; Rev 18:13).

33. Babylon is noted for her fine flour and mill operations (Rev 18:13)

34. Babylon is the leading INDUSTRIAL NATION OF THE WORLD (Isa 13, 47, Jer 50, 51; Rev 18).

35. Babylon is a the leading agricultural nation of the world (Jer 50, 51; Rev 18).

36. Babylon is the leading exporting nation in the world (Jer 51:13; Rev 18).

37. Babylon is the leading importing nation of the entire world.(Jer 50, 51; Rev 18).

38. Babylon is center of world trade (Jer 51:44; Rev 17:18; 18:19).USA

39. Babylon would grow to be the richest nation in the world (Rev 18:3, 7, 19, 23). USA

40. All nations that traded with Babylon would grow rich (Rev 18:3). USA

41. The merchants of Babylon were the GREAT MEN OF THE EARTH (Rev 18:23). USA, all one need to do is look at the huge multi-national corporations that exist. American companies (merchants) the greatest on Earth.

42. Babylon would the QUEEN AMONG THE NATIONS (Isa 47:5,7; Rev 18:7). USA

43. Babylon would be the most powerful nation in the world (Isa 47, Jer 50, 51, Rev 18). USA

44. Babylon would be the HAMMER OF THE WHOLE EARTH (Jer 50:23; Rev 18:23). USA

45. Babylon would be the center for the move to a global economic order (Rev 13:16).

46. The Great City Babylon would be the economic nerve center of the world (Rev 18:3). New York is the Financial Capital of the World.

47. Babylon would be an END TIME GREAT NATION (Rev 17,18; Isa 13:6).

48. Babylon would have a huge seaport city within its borders (Rev 18:17). New York harbor is the biggest in theWorld.

49. The Great City Babylon is the home of a world government attempt (Rev 17:18). This can only be NEW YORK, where the United Nations sits.

50. Is considered intoxicating for it's high society lifestyle (Rev. 17:2, 18:3,23)

51. Is noted for its elegant and extravagant lifestyle (Rev. 18:14).

52. Is noted for being a city/nation of immigrants from all over the world (Rev. 18:15).

53. Is noted for a massive population (Rev. 18:15).

54. Is noted for its importation of drugs (Rev. 18:23).

55.Is the leading center of Commerce (Rev. 17:2)

56. Is the leading center of imports and consumption (Rev. 18:11)

57.Is a leading center of manufacturing (Rev. 18:22)

58. Is the center for world trade in gold, silver, copper, oil, precious gems, cloth, clothing, fashions, lumber, containers, household items, furniture, wine, livestock, transportation, health products, cosmetics, spices, marble, irony, and iron. (Rev. 18:11-13)


There is no other city or nation on earth that could fulfill these requirements other than the United States of America. There are some who hold to the view this passage is referring only to New York City. In fact, it refers to both NYC and the entire nation. The term "city" translated from the Greek means city or nation. In this instance, it refers to a nation led by its chief city, which is New York City. So in some instances it is talking about New York City, and in others the nation itself. And if you're not convinced, go back and read all these prophecies again about the last great nation on earth. What's in New York? The United Nations.

reply to post by cbianchi513

Prove me wrong, oh demander of proof!

I'm just a lazy bastard that can't be bothered to type out christian fully, mind you I don't really care if someone gets irritated by it. That only goes to show how little faith they actually have.

The only time i demand proof of the xtian delusion is when those that suffer the delusion., choose to impinge upon my life or that of my family, which is most of the time.

reply to post by moocowman


Man I guess it will take the entire Tribulation period for you to understand God and I bet you'll accept Maitreya since he will provide this proof you oh so want.

Originally posted by watchtheashes
reply to post by moocowman

 

Man I guess it will take the entire Tribulation period for you to understand God and I bet you'll accept Maitreya since he will provide this proof you oh so want.

Well I don't know who the hell this Maitreya is is supposed to be dude, where in the biblical scriptures will I find reference to to this creature?

When is this tribulation thing you speak of taking place then ?

reply to post by watchtheashes

48. Plays a leadership role in Outer Space Exploration (Jer. 51:3)

I just been looking up Jeremiah 51:3 can you clarify where the hell the authors discuss "Space exploration ?"

Kinda strange coming from a group of people who believed that their god was dwelling in the sky which was held up by pillers.

Incidentally do you believe that yahwehjesus lives in the sky ?

I believe that they live in Heaven which we can neither see nor feel unless you are with the Kingdom of God that is in you, so it must be another dimension and many other ones. Heavens and bottomless pit also refer to space. Satan an the rebel angels take residence around our Solar System and Earth's atmosphere, you would know this as UFOs and so called aliens. The Holy Spirit lives in us.

[edit on 6/27/2009 by watchtheashes]

[edit on 6/27/2009 by watchtheashes]

Originally posted by watchtheashes
I believe that they live in Heaven which we can neither see nor feel unless you are with the Kingdom of God that is in you, so it must be another dimension and many other ones. Heavens and bottomless pit also refer to space. Satan an the rebel angels take residence around our Solar System and Earth's atmosphere, you would know this as UFOs and so called aliens. The Holy Spirit lives in us.

[edit on 6/27/2009 by watchtheashes]

[edit on 6/27/2009 by watchtheashes]

That's all well and good but does not explain your statement -

48. Plays a leadership role in Outer Space Exploration (Jer. 51:3)

Like I said, I can't seem to find this "Space Exploration"in Jeremiah 51.3, could you confirm we are discussing the bibles ? If so please explain the reference, or did you just make it up ?

reply to post by moocowman


That's not my work man that's just a copy paste job pointing out certain scriptures. I'm sure it's a mistake in the typing. You can't deny that America is proud and haughty and arrogant about their place in the world.

That will be our downfall. I hate America. I would never commit any terrorist acts though. Our government is heading down the wrong path and there is no return.

[edit on 6/27/2009 by watchtheashes]

reply to post by watchtheashes

That's not my work man that's just a copy paste job pointing out certain scriptures

Did you not think of actually reading Jeremiah before posting something claiming that Jeremiah discusses space exploration?

Common sens would tell you that a bronze age mythical prophet is highly unlikely to know anything about US space exploration.

And lo and behold, when we read Jeremiah , well a hum, he doesn't.

Naughty boy, will give xtians a bad name if they didn't already have one.