What's wrong with a moment of silence (in public schools)?

A little more on the kid, now grown up who got prayer removed from schools in the 60's...

William J. Murray

William J. Murray
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William J. Murray is the chairman of the Religious Freedom Coalition, a socially conservative organization, in Washington, D.C. He has been active on issues related to aiding Christians in Islamic and Communist nations.

William is the son of Madalyn Murray O'Hair,[1] an American atheist activist who came to national attention in Baltimore, Maryland, when she filed a lawsuit with the Supreme Court of the United States, saying that compulsory prayer and reading of the Bible in schools was unconstitutional.

Murray converted to Christianity in 1980. His mother reportedly stated, upon learning of his conversion, "One could call this a postnatal abortion on the part of a mother, I guess; I repudiate him entirely and completely for now and all times...he is beyond human forgiveness."[2] He felt similarly negative toward her - some have compared My Life Without God to Mommie Dearest,[3] (written by Christina Crawford about her mother Joan Crawford), as he made allegations such as: "She was just evil…She misused the trust of people. She cheated children out of their parents' inheritance."[4]

William J. Murray is the author of several Christian and conservative books including Let Us Pray and The Church Is Not For Perfect People. His most recent book is The Pledge: One Nation Under God, for which the foreword, "A Washington, DC insider", was written by Congressman Todd Akin.

Link: en.wikipedia.org...


Think he feels guilty?

OT

reply to post by jd140

You aren't going to start talking and making noise are you?

Yes...I am.


And no, you never did establish whether you felt everyone should have to participate or have the choice not to...


Go right ahead...

Originally posted by Doc Holiday
It is just a bad idea, I do not wish to voice my religous oppinion.
So I will use an imaginary situation for this...
What about the child or childeren that do not pray?
What do you tell them to do, when they ask what the moment of silence is for? Because prayer and the situation is strange to them, "a moment of silence?" childeren are very open, and they will ask!
No matter how you go about this religion comes up!
Even if it is to honor death...

If they ask you can tell them that it you are showing respect for a person or persons that has died.

Of course you can just be against the whole idea because you are uncomfortable with having to explain things of this nature to your children.

Kind of sad that you are scared to explain something to a child because the topic might make its way to religion.

reply to post by jd140


Well some people would run around the theater screaming fire if it was a religious movie. Just the very mention of God sets their small minds ablaze and makes them run around with their fingers in their ears mumbling lalalalalala until they drowned it out.

I am amazed at how much rage people have for something they keep saying is imaginary. Their very actions almost prove God's existence to me, because how could anyone hate something they claim is a figment of people's imaginations.

reply to post by grapesofraft



Religion has nothing to do with this topic. I don't understand why it is being brought up time and time again.

Moment of silence is not religious.

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by jd140

 

Well some people would run around the theater screaming fire if it was a religious movie. Just the very mention of God sets their small minds ablaze and makes them run around with their fingers in their ears mumbling lalalalalala until they drowned it out.

I am amazed at how much rage people have for something they keep saying is imaginary. Their very actions almost prove God's existence to me, because how could anyone hate something they claim is a figment of people's imaginations.

"Now that's funny!" in my best tow-ma-tor voice....

Originally posted by chapter29
reply to post by jd140

 

You aren't going to start talking and making noise are you?

Yes...I am.


And no, you never did establish whether you felt everyone should have to participate or have the choice not to...


Go right ahead...

So you would be an A hole just because you don't like a movie and ruin it for everyone else?

Obviously you are either a regular 16 year old or a very immature adult. Either way this is the last post I am going to direct towards you.


I did state that they had a choice. If you failed to see that then you can read it again. Heres a hint, it has something to do with a book and shutting up.

Keep rolling guys...thanks...my bride just asked me to make a late night ATM run...sooo I'm off to listen to George Norrey...in peace....See you in the morning...

Originally posted by OldThinker
1) With the current "anything goes" these days, would a 30 second moment of silence hurt?

2) Did you ever have prayer in your public school? You'll be showing your age

3) Are you against any prayer in schools and why?

1. When it comes to spirituality, let me decide whats best for my kids.

2. NEVER (age 50)

3. Yes. When it comes to spirituality, let me decide whats best for my kids.

Unless you see that our government should take a role of spiritual leader for our youngsters...

What is conspiracy angle here OT ? Evil Atheist are trying to take over the world again ?

Pretty warned off topic here on ATS, don't you think ?

reply to post by jd140


I believe it is being brought up because many of us would use a moment of silence to pray to our God. Someone would use it to picture the SI Swimsuit Models or whatever it is that they valued. I guess it would just be nice to have a moment of silence to reflect.

reply to post by jd140

I did state that they had a choice. If you failed to see that then you can read it again. Heres a hint, it has something to do with a book and shutting up.

No...you didn't.


You gave them something to do while they had to wait for the ritual to be over...





16 huh..? You're green dude...

Originally posted by 5thElement

Originally posted by OldThinker
1) With the current "anything goes" these days, would a 30 second moment of silence hurt?

1. When it comes to spirituality, let me decide whats best for my kids.

......

What is conspiracy angle here OT ? Evil Atheist are trying to take over the world again ?

Pretty warned off topic here on ATS, don't you think ?

I didn't realize that a moment of silence, was "spirituality"?


Evil atheists? You know something I don't?

OT

Originally posted by Doc Holiday
Students can have their moment of silence @ play time if they wish to have it.
It should not be public, this only brings the issue of conversation of religion after the moment of silence.
Which is not the best topic for grade schoolers, esp. if there are drastically different religions present.
Such as wiccans, or pagans, along with muslims and christians.
This would be an instant arguement, and/or fight...

Truth will rise to the top....

I've never shyed away from discussing all faiths....


but again the job of the school wouldn't be to PUSH any belief, just allow diversity....no biggie to me....

??

Thoughts?

OT

I'm in my 20's and have been non-religious for my entire life, and I remember two or three times throughout 16 years of school where we were asked to observe a moment of silence. I can't remember exactly what they were for, either when someone had died or something else bad happened, and maybe after 9/11.

The idea of myself or anyone else saying a prayer during that time didn't even cross my mind. It was not implied in any way that it was a moment of silence for prayer, much less suggested. What I thought about during those 20-30 second periods was my business.

I think saying a moment of silence forces religion is like saying making kids line up after recess forces non-creative behavior.

Originally posted by EverythingYouKnowIsWrong


I think saying a moment of silence forces religion is like saying making kids line up after recess forces non-creative behavior.

Sweet quote there....


I agree, no forcing going on...

OT

Originally posted by 5thElement
........Evil Atheist are trying to take over the world again ?

Did they own it before sometime?


Keeping on topic...the kid who was apart of the removal of prayer did grow up....Here's one of his talks....

II. Why Atheism Is Wrong

Having set forth briefly some reasons to believe in God, let me suggest five reasons why atheism is wrong.

A. It is unnatural and demands suppression of the truth everywhere evident about God. This explains why so few true atheists may be found. Atheism may be satisfying to the dilettantes who love to sit around drinking imported coffee and discussing the latest philosophical speculation, but it holds no appeal for the common man or woman. They see it for what it is—an empty philosophy devoid of meaning or purpose. Since atheism is fundamentally unnatural, we should not be surprised to hear that once the yoke of communism was removed, millions of people began searching for the truth about God.

B. It is an egocentric philosophy that puts man at the center of the universe. Most atheists would readily concede this point. Since God does not exist in their thinking, who else but man could ever be at the center of the universe?


C. It produces intellectual arrogance because no one knows enough to say conclusively, “I can prove that God does not exist.” Here are two simple questions to ask anyone who claims that God does not exist. 1) What percentage of knowledge of the universe do you possess? If they are honest, they must reply that their knowledge of the universe is extremely limited—it’s a micron of a proton of a molecule of a sliver of a tiny fraction of one-millionth of 1% of all the knowledge available in the entire universe. 2) Is it possible that God might exist outside your tiny sliver of knowledge? Again, if they are honest, they must answer yes. When you think about it, our knowledge is so limited that no one knows enough to say with certainty that God does not exist. In fact, you’d have to be God in order to deny his existence!

D. It is a negative philosophy that produces nothing positive. Atheism doesn’t build hospitals or universities. It doesn’t provide a meaningful system of morality or ethics. It doesn’t appeal to the hearts of men and women. It has nothing to offer to the hurting people of this world. As an essentially self-centered philosophy, it cannot inspire people to great acts of heroism and sacrifice for the benefit of others. Atheism doesn’t produce a way out of the gutter or off skid row. It can’t change the human heart or relieve the deep burden of sin.

E. It has no answer for the deepest questions of life.

Everyone who comes into the world must eventually grapple with three fundamental questions:

1. Where did I come from?

2. Why am I here?

3. Where am I going?

The first is the question of origins—and the atheist has no idea where he comes from. To him, life is nothing more than random chance. He is here as the result of millions of years of blind chance and mechanistic evolution. His life has no particular meaning. The second is the question of purpose—and since the atheist doesn’t believe in God, his life has no purpose unless he himself gives it one. The third is the question of destiny—and it is here that atheism is revealed in all its sad tragedy. For him, this life is all there is. We live, we die, we show up, we disappear, that’s all there is. No life after death, no heaven, no hell, no rewards, no punishment, just drifting off into oblivion.

link: www.keepbelieving.com...


Where's he wrong??????

OT

Former President Clinton spoke on this too...

"Schools do more than train children's minds. They also help to nurture their souls by reinforcing the values they learn at home and in their communities. I believe that one of the best ways we can help out schools to do this is by supporting students' rights to voluntarily practice their religious beliefs, including prayer in schools.... For more than 200 years, the First Amendment has protected our religious freedom and allowed many faiths to flourish in our homes, in our work places and in our schools. Clearly understood and sensibly applied, it works."


President Clinton
May 30, 1998

Well, has society changed for the better without school prayer?

David Barton of Wall Builders has studied the statistical records for the past 60 years. In each study you can clearly see a negative impact starting around the year 1962 when School Prayer was removed! Teenage pregnancy rates have gone up 500% since 1962. Unmarried mothers have risen dramatically since 1962. The divorce Rate is so high that many young children don't really understand what a family is. Violent Crimes have risen steadily since the early 60's, and our prison system is bursting at the seams. The SAT scores have steadily declined each year for 18 straight years since 1962 and continue to decline or be low. We once had the best school system in the world, and we are now ranked about 15th among the industrialized nations. This is despite us spending more money then any other nation in the world on our school system. As the poorly educated enter the workforce how can our companies compete with other international industries?

more: www.free2pray.info...

The only reason I don't like it is...

After the moment of silence is over, lunch or playtime comes around, if it were a moment of silence for the passing of someone..
One child will tell another that the "person no longer with us" has gone to heaven, then another will say NO he is with 23 virgins, and yet another will say he has joined the earth again...
and so on..
I just see lots of room for problems "with the masses"
Just look @ us on this site, and we are adults, and are having issues with it, think how the kids would see it..
And yes in the past there was less problems with this, mainly due to religious persecution, well into the 80's mostly in rural comunities.
I saw many minority "religions" come to my area, and if that student didn't celebrate X-mas or got to celebrate a different holiday than the rest of the class they were deamed ODD....

Did the founding fathers of America see this coming? Don't think so...


observe...

John Adams in a speech to the military in 1798 warned his fellow countrymen stating, "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams is a signer of the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and our second President.

Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence said. "[T]he only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be aid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments. Without religion, I believe that learning does real mischief to the morals and principles of mankind."

Noah Webster, author of the first American Speller and the first Dictionary said, "[T]he Christian religion, in its purity, is the basis, or rather the source of all genuine freedom in government. . . . and I am persuaded that no civil government of a republican form can exist and be durable in which the principles of that religion have not a controlling influence."
Gouverneur Morris, Penman and Signer of the Constitution. "[F]or avoiding the extremes of despotism or anarchy . . . the only ground of hope must be on the morals of the people. I believe that religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. [T]herefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

Fisher Ames author of the final wording for the First Amendment wrote, "[Why] should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples captivating and noble. The reverence for the Sacred Book that is thus early impressed lasts long; and probably if not impressed in infancy, never takes firm hold of the mind."
John Jay, Original Chief-Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court , "The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts."

James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution; U. S. Supreme Court Justice, "Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine. . . . Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other."


Thoughts? out of touch old-fogies?