Mideast: Israel Cracks Down on Minority Rights

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Your avatar says "Defy Authority" and yet you speak of the conception of a quais-global fundamentalist caliphate as no big deal. Hmmmm. I wouldn't want a christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Hhinto, or Voodoo "Caliphate" any more than i want a Muslim one.

I think you mistake my comments- I don't give a crap what god people pray to- I care about whether or not they ask me- or ulitmately force me to follow- Evangelism jusn't doesn't suit me- nor does being accused of apostasy (as people are daily in Iran, Saudi, Sudan, etc., and beheaded and such for praying to a different god from Allah).

I prefer a sort of.....choice in my life, and that can't happen in theocratic rule.

I wonder if you'd feel the same if you were a Zoroastrian Iranian, a Sudanese Christian, a Chistian Chinese, a Jewish Alabaman?

And your comments about the West- the Us, Eu, etc., are falling on deaf ears. I have no Imperial desires or instincts- you must have me confused with a Government body- or someone who's never left her home to see the great big world. I've lived, studied, travelled and worked on four continents. I kind of get it, so why do't you get off your pedastal and let's have a ral discussion? Kind of uncomfortable to be challenged with reason, isn't it?

reply to post by mattpryor


Yeah- I get really uncomfortable when people don't defend Israel. I think to myself....why don't people support Israel? Racism? A democracy in the middle of surrounding thocracies? Could THAT make you uncomfortable? Please explain- I really want to know how you justify that.

Originally posted by CultureD
Israel IS a soveriegn nation. I hope that all people who live there- regardless of their faiths- may be secured and live safely in the future

Israel has a lot of power and helluva lot of influence, beside the occasional violence that ensues; more often than not, brought upon by themselves, you cannot state this as the core for solving this problem. I know I know, the lives! - But why not look into the reasons behind the loss of those lives in the first place, specifically the Palestinian sides monumental loss of life and incredible ongoing agony, then when you see those reasons, the solution becomes crystal clear, and people have been saying this for a long time: A two state solution!

Theres no doubt that Israel (despite its history and founding) deserve a homeland, but this isnt the problem. They already have a homeland, its only getting bigger, and as anyone with two sharp eyes can see, they are not the ones with the problems, they are not the ones who suffering. Again, I know I know; The big bad bullies (arabs and muslims) are surrounding the "homeland", but you must research the founding of this homeland and how it came to be in the first place before you cling to the propagated fantasy and myth that the Israelis are somehow the 'victims' - this is not the case at all, and frankly; I can understand why people would want to believe in this propagated myth, because its a fantasy, and its much easier to continue believing in this fantasy rather than address the little matter of genocide that the Palestinians have endured for decades.

Regards,

reply to post by Majorion

I agree with your approach, but one of the problems is that there are a lot of myths that have no connection to reality. There was no Palestinian nation until Zionism gave birth to it too. 1948 war was not about two states or one state, but about throwing Jews out. Where Arab forces won, Jews were thrown away. So victim or not - it is not white vs black story for both sides, it was fight for survival.
Israeli side is not free from its own myths and other problems of course, but it takes two sides to get the situation where it is now.
By the way:

its only getting bigger

is also a myth. Check few maps and you can clearly see it.
1967 (largest) map:
www.mfa.gov.il...
1993 map
www.mfa.gov.il...
2006 map
www.israelvotes.com...
Map is a little outdated but...
Gaza is no longer under Israeli control (yellow) and West bank territories
exept settlements are mostly not under Israeli control (yellow-white)
So its only getting smaller.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
There was no Palestinian nation until Zionism gave birth to it too.

Hello ZeroKnowledge,

Forgive me, but I am quite skeptical of the deep rooted implication behind your statement there. Although I wish to add some info to that;

The Zionist movement has maintained a striking continuity in its aims and methods over the past century. From the start, the movement sought to achieve a Jewish majority in Palestine and to establish a Jewish state on as much of the LAND as possible. The methods included promoting both mass Jewish immigration and acquiring tracts of land that would become the inalienable property of the Jewish people. This policy inevitably prevented the indigenous Arab residents from attaining their national goals and establishing a Palestinian state. It also necessitated displacing Palestinians from their lands and jobs when their presence conflicted with Zionist interests

Zionism And Its Impact

Keywords there; indigenous Arab residents.

1948 war was not about two states or one state, but about throwing Jews out. Where Arab forces won, Jews were thrown away.

Well, I hate to involve myself so personally, but close relatives of mine lived in Palestine from before 48 and their accounts deeply conflict with the above statement. They witnessed murder in the midst of the zionist undertaking, and were forced to leave their homes behind and flee from Palestine or otherwise be killed. I'll just leave it at that.

So victim or not - it is not white vs black story for both sides, it was fight for survival.

On the Palestinians side? Yes it was a fight for survival, and it still is. Israel have the backing of the U.S, billions of dollars funded every year, and have one of the most advanced military forces (most advanced in the region). So, Israel dont really have anything to worry about, they are secured. However the issue is what they have been doing to their neighbors for decades.

is also a myth. Check few maps and you can clearly see it.
1967 (largest) map:
www.mfa.gov.il...
1993 map
www.mfa.gov.il...
2006 map
www.israelvotes.com...

With all due respect, those maps come from Israeli sources, so bias can be a factor. However the most common map to have been used on ATS is this one, and it tells another story:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/302b473b6fbb.jpg[/atsimg]

Regards,

reply to post by Majorion


I probably poorly explained myself on some points:

indigenous Arab residents.

Of course there were Arab residents. But they were no more and no less Palestinians then Arab residents of what is now Jordain. Or even Arab residents in what became Syria. There was no nation - Palestinians. There were Arab residents of British mandate of Palestine. Before that - Turkish provinces, before that .....
Even local Arab army in 1948 had no "Palestine" in its name. Arab liberation on army, holy war army... No Palestinian defense forces for example.

They witnessed murder in the midst of the zionist undertaking, and were forced to leave their homes behind and flee from Palestine or otherwise be killed. I'll just leave it at that.

Nor did i argue with that. It is just that BOTH sides used the same tactics. You probably had no relatives in Jewish Gush Etzion, Gush Katif or Jerusalem otherwise they would also witness murder and be forced to flee. One wrong does not make other wrong right, but once again both sides used similar tactics. One side won. So it made much more gruesome impact.

On the Palestinians side?

On both sides. If Holy war army won in 1948 - what result exactly would you expect? Or if in 1967/73 Syrian/Egyptian forces would take Tel-Aviv - you expect that Israel was to be?

those maps come from Israeli sources, so bias can be a factor. However the most common map to have been used on ATS is this one, and it tells another story:

And those maps come from non-biased source? Painting all non-Jewish owned land green in 1946 does not make it reliable source too. Can you name me Palestinian Arabs that owned ,say, Negev desert? And British government is not even mentioned here, surely they had no land. All non -Palesitinian Jewish land was naturally Palestinian Arab land. Or not.
And 2000 map is no better either. For some reason lands that are under control of Palestinian autonomy are not specified. Those maps are not political, those maps are info wars.

Originally posted by Majorion
With all due respect, those maps come from Israeli sources, so bias can be a factor. However the most common map to have been used on ATS is this one, and it tells another story:
Regards,

With all due respect, a jpeg on the internet is no substitute for a thorough understanding of the complex situation or history. Its only use is for stupid and ignorant people who don't really want to understand anything but want to ram their anti-Israeli diatribe down peoples' throats. I presume you're not stupid or ignorant?

Originally posted by mattpryor

Originally posted by Majorion
With all due respect, those maps come from Israeli sources, so bias can be a factor. However the most common map to have been used on ATS is this one, and it tells another story:
Regards,

With all due respect, a jpeg on the internet is no substitute for a thorough understanding of the complex situation or history. Its only use is for stupid and ignorant people who don't really want to understand anything but want to ram their anti-Israeli diatribe down peoples' throats. I presume you're not stupid or ignorant?

Wow Matt that certainly is a highly suspect statement that you made. Have you ever thought about switching to Sanka?

It is a rather telling statement too. Here in the United States of America when complex issues are taught in schools ranging from pre-school to post graduate school they use something called...a-u-d-i-o/v-i-s-u-a-l aids.

There is an old saying, maybe you have heard of it? A picture tells a 1,000 (thousand) words.

Oh and just in case you weren't aware, the words you type represent a picture too! In several ways.

You see here on the Internet blogs and forums we can 'see' what you have to say by reading your type, but we can't 'hear' what you say, because what you say has no 'audio' in this forum but simply 'visual'.

How much intelligence do you imagine it takes to understand a shrinking amount of anything?

See Matt this is the problem in a nutshell with the brainwashed and often evil self serving people involved with defending Israel's many thefts, murders and human rights violations...

Over the weekend Israel's Prime Minister Nut-and-yahoo, says he will 'accept' an unarmed Palestinian State!

That if Palestinians are 'nice' people who 'deserve' their own State that they will disarm happily and eagerly in order to have their own State and if they don't they are bad, bad people who don't want peace...

Now everyone who suffers from having their mental faculties damaged by Israeli propoganda says 'hey that makes sense'.

Yet an intelligent person would say, "Gee since Zionists broke their accords with the United Nations and Palestinians that allowed them to lawfully immigrate into Palestine by murdering U.N. and Palestinians, stealing land and terrorizing people...how come the Israelis aren't the ones that should disarm, or how come the Israelis shouldn't disarm too in order to have a peaceful state alongside a peaceful Palestinian state?"

Matt I hate to break it to you but no intelligent person is ever going to understand this so called 'complex' issue with the insane, selfish, reprehensible and evil double standards that Zionists/Jews and Israelis wish to ram employ and ram down people's throats in such beligerent ways as you have just attempted to do in your post.

Yes it's true a picture tells a thousand words which is why I think you should switch to Sanka, obviously something makes you very irratible!

It's either (a.) caffine or (b.) when other people use common sense and intelligence to say 'a theif is a theif is a theif'...

Otherwise known as a Rose is a Rose by any other name!

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Zionists... Jews... evil... theft... blah blah blah blah

It's like listening to a broken record

Unlike some people on these forums I'm actually interested in discussing the issues with a view to finding solutions and a way forward. I understand that there are two, conflicting narratives and two conflicting points of view. I understand that there are people who live in unacceptable conditions, both in Israel and in the refugee camps. I understand that Israeli governments have played their part in perpetuating that misery, as have Egyptian governments, Jordanian governments, the Iranian mullahs, the PLO, Hamas, Fatah and the Palestinian people themselves.

But with you it's black and white, good and evil, rebels verses storm troopers, and anyone who doesn't join in with the Israeli bashing is "one of them".

You offer no solutions, no answers, no resolution. You just offer more hatred, more vilification, more anger and more resentment.

Originally posted by mattpryor

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Zionists... Jews... evil... theft... blah blah blah blah

It's like listening to a broken record

Unlike some people on these forums I'm actually interested in discussing the issues with a view to finding solutions and a way forward. I understand that there are two, conflicting narratives and two conflicting points of view. I understand that there are people who live in unacceptable conditions, both in Israel and in the refugee camps. I understand that Israeli governments have played their part in perpetuating that misery, as have Egyptian governments, Jordanian governments, the Iranian mullahs, the PLO, Hamas, Fatah and the Palestinian people themselves.

But with you it's black and white, good and evil, rebels verses storm troopers, and anyone who doesn't join in with the Israeli bashing is "one of them".

You offer no solutions, no answers, no resolution. You just offer more hatred, more vilification, more anger and more resentment.

Matt there is an easy solution...the solution that EVERYONE agreed to at the beginning.

Israel gets 48% of the land, Palestine get's 52% of the land, neither State governs the other!

Duh! It's called the U.N./British Mandate of Palestine that everyone agreed to and the Israelis broke.

Had the Zionists not waged a War of Terror on the British Authorities tasked with seeing it's implementation through, and had former Israeli Prime Minister and Stern Gang Terrorist Yitzhak Shamir not murdered the U.N. Special Envoy Count Bernadotte Folke, and the Zionists kept the agreements that let them lawfully imigrate into the area I doubt any of the other States you mention would need to be involved in trying to pick up the pieces that a corrupt, weak and vassilating United Nations has left the poor disenfranchised Palestinians to have to deal with.

There is a solution...it's called 'Israel after 68 years of lieing, murdering, stealing, and persecuting innocent men, women and children just because they possess something the Zionists covet, finally do what they said they would do in the first place that even gave them a seat at the table.

Nut-and-yahoo said nothing about that this weekend, and neither have you.

Real credible people do what they say they will do and agree too and the Israelis and Zionists have NEVER done that.

Amazingly in their minds and far too often in their supporters mind's it's always everyone elses fault but the Zionists that they don't keep their agreements and never want to award even standards that ALL people including them must live and conduct their affairs by.

Here's another map for you, since you obviously like pictures:



This is the British Mandate of Palestine. Does it stop at the River Jordan? Do you see the West Bank or Gaza Strip singled out for special attention? No.

Palestinians did get their own state you see - and it wasn't 52%, it was more like 80%.

Palestinians have their own state - it's called Jordan and it's four times as big as Israel.

But 80% of the Mandate wasn't enough. Which is why (after decades of agitated riots, pillaging, destruction of Jewish property) the Jordanian regime then took Judea/Samara by force (which were the very heart of the proposed Jewish state and intrinsically linked to Jewish history) in 1948. They also took East Jerusalem, and flattened the Jewish quarter, murdered and expelled the residents and destroyed the synagogues.

During the occupation (between 1948 and 1967) Jordan had complete control over the Judea/Samara region as well as East Jerusalem. Israelis of all faiths were forbidden from entering the old city and historic holy sites (contrary to UN mandates). And yet during this time, over 19 years, between one and two million Palestinians in Jordanian controlled land continued to live in UNRWA refugee camps. Why was this?

[edit on 15-6-2009 by mattpryor]

reply to post by mattpryor


Matt I am sorry but no.

You are simply grasping at straws and in the process illustrating how you do not favor a just or honest fair solution to the problems that have been caused by Zionists breaking contracts and treaties, murdering, stealing, degrading and terrorizing people to get their way.

Zionists have violated the accords made with the United Nations whose charitible act by the world and Palestine has been abused and betrayed by the Zionists.

While Israelis and Zionists make every attempt to keep the trial from going to the Jury and the Jury from ever convening through an insulting and fictitious set of endless ploys and manuevers any laymen can see clearly that they are guilty as charged and so shall history my friend.

While the arrogance of Zionists and Israelis know no bounds the patience and tollerance of human beings does as has been manifested from Babylon to Egypt to Germany when fair minded human beings say enough is enough and cast the Hapiri/Habiru out of their kingdoms and lives.

I would personally advise the Zionists and Israel to give it a rest, make some real concessions and give up their original and constant plan of dominanting all of the Middle East from the Brooks of Egypt to the Mesopatamian Delta.

As I have said many times before Matt the danger in decieving people in regards to history is those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

The Hapiri/Habiru are simply not well served by their machinations as real history clearly illustrates.

It's time to recognize that the only thing that is 'Chosen' about such unfettered arrogance is how such amoral people are eventually targeted as just that and rejected in various forms and ways by those who simply have to much self respect and respect for the truth itself to ever continually tollerate it.

Wake up, then grow up.

The world will be a better place for all including the Habiru and the Hapiri.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Rather than address my points you simply rant about how evil Zionists are, again, and accuse me of distortion of historical facts.

You say that the solution to the Middle East crisis is for Israel to revert to the British Mandate of Palestine. Yet you appear to forget the fact that the British Mandate of Palestine encompassed modern day Israel AND Jordan, and Israel ended up 20% of that land and Jordan 80%. Or, you're aware of it but chose to disguise the fact.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just got a little confused. Perhaps you mean that Israel should revert to the 1947 partition plan? The one that Israel agreed to in good faith until the combined armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq brutally invaded the tiny scrap of land that had been left for them?

While the arrogance of Zionists and Israelis know no bounds the patience and tollerance of human beings does as has been manifested from Babylon to Egypt to Germany when fair minded human beings say enough is enough and cast the Hapiri/Habiru out of their kingdoms and lives.

I assume by "Hapiri / Habiru" you're referring to the Jews? By the way that is at best a controversial opinion. Why don't you just call them Jews?

So let me get this straight - when Germany (for instance) expelled and murdered its Jewish population under Nazi rule this was what the Jews deserved? Are you referring to Hitler as a "fair minded human being"? Please clarify this statement.

reply to post by mattpryor


No Matt I have no interest in responding to your diversionary attempts to pretend that states like Kuwait and Jordan that were born out of redrawing the Middle East upon the relinquishing of Colonial British Control have any relevence in regards to the Israelis and Zionists lack of credibility in honoring treaties, human rights, and International Law and Standards.

I will not demean myself in such a way as to even pretend their is anything legitimate in the apartheid bigoted ramblings of a proponent of murder, theft and segregation at the expense of the people whose charitible hospitality the greedy, deceptive and self serving Zionists betrayed.

I have to much respect for myself, and the innocent men, women and children who have been murdered, robbed, displaced, and defamed in such a farcical and dishonest process.

For shame.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Matt,

Please keep it up. You are doing a fine job in articulating facts, not fiction. Not that any of this matters.

The Jordanian squatters LOST the war, people. Get...over...it. Israel, like them or not, is not going anywhere and is not going to give up any more of their country to anyone. It is simple geo-political evolution. The strong and adaptable survive, while the weak and inflexible perish.

ProtoplasmicTraveler,

Why can't you just come out and say "jews"? The term "zionist" doesn't apply here anymore, since the State of Israel has been in existence for over 50 years. If you don't feel comfortable saying "Israeli", and you haven't used that term too much in this thread, just say jews. We all get where you are coming from. Strong countries have been stealing and forcefully taking the land of weaker peoples since time immemorial. Why so much venom for the jews....ahem...I mean, "zionists"?

Originally posted by mattpryor
With all due respect, a jpeg on the internet is no substitute for a thorough understanding of the complex situation or history. Its only use is for stupid and ignorant people who don't really want to understand anything but want to ram their anti-Israeli diatribe down peoples' throats. I presume you're not stupid or ignorant?

Thats very interesting "mattpryor", do you always demonstrate such hostility when you encounter a differing viewpoint? - judging from your avatar, its quite self evident.

Originally posted by Pyros
The strong and adaptable survive, while the weak and inflexible perish

I see. So by that logic, let the world empower a few and rid the rest, lest the issues come to light and the world opens its eyes.

BTW, your little catchphrase there is reminiscent of something out of Star Trek, like the Borg; who assimilate.

Interesting,

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that's the way it is.

Assimilation into another society is not the worst thing that could happen to a people. The jews know this, going all the way back to ancient Babylonia at the hands of King Nebuchadnezzar. It's not always fair, and it's not always right, but what ultimately matters is the survival of your people, the saving of the distinct cultural identifiers and traits, and the improvement of your quality of life. Things like political and religious freedom can come later, after your people have jobs, food in their bellies, and a roof over their heads.

Blathering on about who did what to who in the 1930's and 1940's is pointless. The game is over and done with. About the same point in history the Japanese and Germans were nearly annihilated, yet they accepted their defeat, swallowed their collective national pride, and disavowed themselves to violence and military aggression. Now look at them. Economic powerhouses. Strong military powers. Political freedom. Tourist destinations. Worldwide recognition. And the "palestinians"? They refuse to follow the trail that other countries have already blazed for them. What the Palestinians probably don't realize is that there is a TREMENDOUS amount of world-wide sympathy for them......EXCEPT for the terrorism, intolerance, and religious radicalism they continue to embrace. If they were to rid themselves of these characteristics, I'm certain the world will heap mountains of aid, economic programs, and assistance to the Palestinian people, more than they could ever hope to utilize.

Unfortunately, due mostly to forces outside the WB and Gaza Strip, the Palestinians will continue to be fed a steady diet of weapons and hatred from their puppeteer "friends" who will use them as a proxy against the jews who control Jerusalem. It's a shame, really.

reply to post by Pyros

ProtoplasmicTraveler,

Why can't you just come out and say "jews"? The term "zionist" doesn't apply here anymore, since the State of Israel has been in existence for over 50 years. If you don't feel comfortable saying "Israeli", and you haven't used that term too much in this thread, just say jews. We all get where you are coming from. Strong countries have been stealing and forcefully taking the land of weaker peoples since time immemorial. Why so much venom for the jews....ahem...I mean, "zionists"?

Another disingenuous attempt at obliterating the facts and the answer would be for the same reason an American Politician says to a crowd of American Jewish voters, you don’t have to be Jewish to be a Zionist.

The Zionist Manifesto as laid out by the founding Zionists in Palestine of using apartheid, human exchange, economic and military terror, enlisting the aide of powerful allies and distorting facts into propaganda to create an ever expanding Israel that is bounded by the brooks of Egypt and the Mesopotamian Delta is very much alive as evidenced both by those tactics and the way that the illegal state of Israel’s 1948 borders have continued to grow.

If you think Zionism is just about the Jewish religion or Judaism itself or the Hapiri/Habiru who have come to be known as the Hebrew through false religious texts and gross manipulations of history you are sadly mistaken.

Aurelius Augustinus Hipponensis developed the concept of the City of God in a book by that same name that created a distinction from the material City of Man that Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Iustinianus thought was all the rage in his ecumenical councils in perverting aspects of Sassanid Gnosticism, a Judean Rabbi’s enigmatic cult, Worship of the sun and the progression of the Equinoxes and the Zodiac into a vile religion aimed at political control of the masses.

The concept of City of God is one that subscribes to the belief that one might convene with their deity in an intellectual kingdom of spiritual thought anywhere, anytime and anyplace unrestricted by such things as geography.

In other words one need not have a state or city or even home to commune spiritually with their deity.

Zionism in its most insidious form is about a plan for one world government through visiting a plague of wars and inhuman indifference upon man until he gives up any and all vestiges of independence and freedom from the City of Man which is that physical realm that binds human in dimensional time and space.

That city is Jerusalem, and that land is called Israel and that initial one world government ruler is called the Anti-Christ whom after establishing one world government will be prophetically supplanted by Christ also known as Jehosuah of Nazareth or Jesus of Nazareth.

One need not be Jewish to be a Zionist, and even according to Jewish Israelis one need not be Jewish to be Israeli.

However Zionists in all their competing political goals from the Habiru/Hapiri/Hebrew who want to dominate the Middle East from the Brooks of Egypt to the Mesopotamian Delta in an ethnically pure state, Christians who want to see the return of their Spiritual King and the City of God merge with the City of Man, and patrician oligarchs who want to rule the world through a one world government each have their own designs and uses for the land of Palestine that are in my humble opinion not in humankind’s best interest.

The Palestinians have no such designs or agenda for a land they lived peacefully and communally on for thousands of years alongside a smattering of Habiru/Hapiri/Hebrew who did not go into Diaspora.

Whether it is Jewish arrogance that for vanity’s sake want to make such concern’s that people like myself have all about the Jewish religion, or whether it is out of some paranoia that past Hapiri/Habiru plots and machinations that have failed in their scope and reach with disastrous consequences is neither here nor there to me.

Just as some people would like to usurp the falsely coined misnomer ‘anti-Semitism’ for their own political goal, so too would many different competing entities like to define Zionism in absolute terms unique to their viewpoint.

Zionism in all it’s forms is very much alive and I would caution you to not so flatter yourself as to imagine mine is a uniquely singular anti-Jewish agenda.

For those spiritual people of any denomination or belief that can commune with their deities without tainting the City of Man in that process I have nothing against that endeavor.

To those people who think the City of God should be merged with the City of Man I shall oppose them strenuously regardless of their denomination, spiritual or political desires.

To me Zionism is a much larger issue and problem than the narrow parameters you would like to define it in regarding the Hapiri/Habiru plot to re-dominate the Middle East under the guise of a religious and ethnic homeland.

Now you know why I say Z-i-o-n-i-s-t and when Zionists stop trying to tell other people what other people themselves truly mean, is when Z-i-o-n-i-s-m will be viewed as a far less threatening and damaging thing than it currently certainly appears to be by people like myself.

The prejudices are yours and not mine friend!


[edit on 15/6/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by mattpryor


Matt, and others before you who resumed a sane and unbiased conversation on this topic- thank you.

I would like to thank you as well for your question re: Hitler and the statements made about what happened under his government.

There are many points I would add, but they would be redundant to your excellent arguments. Thanks for bringing civilized debate back to this topic, and for calling racism ...racism.

I hold no racism in my heart- against any group. When peope act violently, or incite violence, due to race, however, on either side of the perceptions involved, there is no possiblity of compromise- as there is no honour.

Too tired to add anything else, except my thanks for your civilized and extremely well-researched and well-expressed posts.

Originally posted by Majorion
Thats very interesting "mattpryor", do you always demonstrate such hostility when you encounter a differing viewpoint? - judging from your avatar, its quite self evident.

Sorry to hear you didn't like my avatar. I've made a new one just for you. And yes I do get annoyed when people post pictures like this without even trying to find out whether or not said pictures reflect reality. We're meant to be denying ignorance remember?

Now let's take a look at that "map" shall we?

1946: Well this is an interesting perspective to say the least. For one thing the population of the region (excluding Gaza and Judea/Samara) was approximately 800,000. This comprised of 80% Jewish, 20% Arab. So please explain how, exactly, this justifies painting the entire region green (including, as ZeroKnowledge pointed out, the Negev desert which is largely uninhabitable)? What you have shown here is a largely unpopulated region, mostly desert, with Jewish population centres in white. And the whole region was governed by the British... so this map is, frankly, just nonsense. It's fiction.

1947: This probably the only accurate map included (although the context is iffy), and does indeed show the 1947 UN partition plan. Unfortunately, it never came to pass - although Israel agreed to it, Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Iraq did not which is why they attacked Israel in 1948 and used Judea/Samara, Gaza and the Golan Heights as strategic points from which to launch their combined assault.

1949-1967 The bits you've coloured in green here were not Palestinian land - they were occupied by Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (Judea/Samara) respectively. During this period there was no call for an independent Palestinian state, but there was a row over who should govern the regions. The PLO did not come into existence until 1964, and calls for an Palestinian self-governance did not begin until as late as 1974. Pan-Arabists could not take the land back by force so instead organised and funded an insurgency movement within Israel's borders.

Unfortunately calls to return Judea/Samara and East Jerusalem to Arab rule (made particularly noisy when combined with a relentless terrorist campaign against Israeli civilians) fell on deaf ears in the West. Particularly given the shambles that had been Arab governance of the region in the inter-war period. However they found much more sympathy with Western politicians, diplomats and academics using the "self governance" argument, by depicting the Jordanian residents of Judea/Samara as an oppressed people. Interestingly it is a tactic borrowed from Hitler with regards to the Sudenland region of Czechoslovakia prior to its invasion in 1939. This tactic persists today, and if you are to understand the politics of the region now, it is important to understand this perspective.

2000 Now we're (nearly) up to present day. The map presented here ignores the factional differences between "West Bank" Palestinians and Gaza Palestinians. It also does a remarkable job of over-simplifying the enormously complex demographic realities, if indeed that is what it is meant to do. For example, about 4/5ths of Israel has a population density of less than 25 people per square kilometre, whereas the main population densities are in the coastal regions (Tel Aviv, Haifa) and Jerusalem.

So in summary:

- The first map is made up. The whole region was under British control.
- The second map shows the proposed UN partition plan, which was never implemented because of war.
- The third map is inaccurate as the green bits were not "Palestinian" but Egyptian and Jordanian
- The fourth map is just bizarre - I don't know what it's supposed to be. The only thing I will agree with is that the green bits are "No Jew" zones, whether they're Fatah or Hamas controlled. You support this do you?

People talk about apartheid in Israel. Show me where the apartheid exists. In Israel proper, all ethnic / religious / social groups have the freedom work, vote, own property, marry, pray, do whatever the hell they like, and there is certainly no restriction on where you can go out. In the regions controlled by Hamas and Fatah, Jews are banned. If anything resembling apartheid exists at all, it is in the Palestinian zones and it is discrimination against Jews, NOT the other way round.

[edit on 16-6-2009 by mattpryor]