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New Analysis Video of the STS-75 Tether Incident

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posted on Nov, 4 2009 @ 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by spacefan
it [the FES] certainly does not produce any large ice crystals.


And the relevance of this to the STS-75 video is, uh, exactly WHAT?

FES's do freeze up from time to time, and when they thaw, ice breaks off. It's not common, but it's not 'never' either. How would you know?




posted on Nov, 4 2009 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by easynow
and you have to get with Zorgon about which tether he was talking about, i just posted what he said. that's all i know about it but i will say that by reading what he posted, it sounded like a DoD secret or something so it's possible that the info is not on a regular public website.


..or more likely it's a public report of an unclassified satellite that you merely knew nothing about, and therefore assumed that nobody else did either because it was 'secret'. Your assumptions are out of control and continue to lead you to sillinesses.

The connection with the STS-75 tether video analysis remains unclear to me. Are you trying to suggest that the tether videtaped from the shuttle, or the one seen from the ground a few days later, was NOT the tether that broke free on Feb 25? Please be explicit, by all means.



posted on Nov, 4 2009 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by JimOberg

Originally posted by spacefan
all other water is recycled as you probably know.


I don't doubt that you think you "know" this. But the problem is, as with so many other things you're so confident you know, it ain't so. The shuttle does not, and never has, recycled water. It disposes of it -- sometimes by dumping it, sometimes through the FES, sometimes (if docked to a space station) in beachball sized plastic bags (CWC's).

So when you say "all other water is recycled" on the shuttle you are, once again, substituting your own far-out fantasies for factual realities.



was their something wrong in the data contained in that link jim it contradicts your assertion about the water recycling i am affraid atleast on flight 75 anyways.
please dont be dismissive this time i have had 3 days solid reading aqbout shuttle water and its uses.

do you feel your central plank giving way jim
you know now dont you that all the documentation required is
there to refute your ice thoery.

i must say tho i am chuffed to be the first to notice the experimental nature of the waste water being diverted to the flash evaporator to assist with the data on this mission an extension of flight 73s work i believe.
all the time line shows are the flash evoporator flush times as that was when the urine was used to suppliment the flush due to running hot for extended periods and using excessive supplies as shown above fes does not create ice with its dumps/flushes it creates a halo of gas at the aft end in clear view of the tops camera..

however as i stated it broke and substantially iced up in between experiments/flushes so yes it produced ice on its line and nozzles.

While science investigations continued on the middeck -- specifically studying how fire spreads and soot develops in the microgravity environment of space -- a procedure was performed to remove ice from the core of Columbia's flash evaporator system which shutdown earlier this morning.


On Saturday, March 2, 1996, 8 a.m. CST
The FES core flush procedure was identical to one carried out on the last Shuttle flight to melt ice and recover use of the subsystem which is designed as a subtle method for dumping excess water overboard without disrupting the experiments on board. The FES also cools the freon used to keep orbiter and payload electronics at operating temperatures.

so now its all down to the timing of the thaw and releases jimbo isnt it as thats the only source of water ice.

you sitting comfortably jimbo. that was the day after the footage was shot jimbo.

i have clearly linked to the data stating the above you however have replied with a !!trust me your wrong!! reply.

the above is all from nasa jim.

no ice no theory jim.


the fes was running and releasing steam jimbo from the time the cargo bay doors were opened with sometimes excessive steam and both valves were in use.
fes failed and iced up unfortunately for your theury it failed after the footage was shot and fixed after the footage was shot.











[edit on 4-11-2009 by spacefan]

[edit on 4-11-2009 by spacefan]



posted on Nov, 4 2009 @ 03:50 PM
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reply to post by spacefan
 


Spacefan you seem like a smart person so I'm sure you can figure out how to use the external source tags if you try. I'd like to echo ArMaP's request that it would make your posts easier to read.


Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by spacefan
also jim you are omitting the fact that the shuttle flew at 3 differing altitudes during that time because of the crystal experiment they were carrying out.
Could you please explain what you meant, altitude or attitude? Thanks.

PS: if you post a link to the source you don't need to (and you shouldn't) post so much text from that source. Also, you should use the [ex] and [/ex] tags to post text from external sources.



See the "EX" icon at the upper left of the box where you compose your message? Just click that and copy and paste, if it's just one paragraph. More than one paragraph can have the formatting disturbed so you can just type the tags in that case, it works the same. And you can post the link of the external source right above the quote from the external source like I did in this post:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It will make your posts a lot easier to follow if you follow the proper format. As it is, it's not so easy to tell what is written by you and what is written by someone else, so it's very confusing to read your posts without the formatting. Thanks.



[edit on 4-11-2009 by Arbitrageur]



posted on Nov, 4 2009 @ 04:06 PM
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ok i will work on that site function thanks.

timeline as promised so where did the ice come from jim.


day 1 thursday the 22/2

Columbia will remain in a near circular 160 nautical mile orbit for
most of the mission, circling the Earth every 90 minutes to provide
the crew with views of a sunrise and sunset 16 times each day.



day 2 friday the 23/2

details of various experiments and staff shifts x3



day 3 saturday the 24/2

problems with tether computor control system.

Troubleshooting a balky experiment data relay box was the focus of work aboard Columbia throughout Friday night and into this morning as the astronauts and flight controllers attempted to track down the problem and preserve their options for deploying the tethered satellite at 2:37 this afternoon.

this is the tops camera experiment.

the SPREE experiment, conducted
by David Hardy of the Department of the Air Force, will
measure the charged particle quantities around Columbia
before and during active tethered satellite operations.




day 4 sunday the 25/2

Columbia's crew will begin the deploy sequence of the Tethered
Satellite System about 2:45 this afternoon after a one-day delay

first waste water flush and fes experiment.

Another investigation of Columbia's surroundings made use of the orbiter's Flash Evaporator System (FES). To accomplish this experiment, the crew participated in activating and deactivating the orbiter's water release systems and manually operating the Shuttle's attitude control system jets. This provided a controlled means of studying the distribution of neutral and charged particles in the vicinity of the payload bay during Shuttle water dumps.


The tether on the Italian Tethered Satellite broke about 7:30 p.m. CST
Sunday as the satellite was nearing the full extent of its deployment
from the Shuttle. The satellite, which was nearing the end of its
planned 12.8 mile distance, immediately began accelerating away from
Columbia at a rapid rate as a result of normal orbital forces. TSS is
separating from Columbia at a rate of 420 miles each 90 minute orbit.


even tho they had a waste water dump/flush prior as part of the tops experiment that day you dont see any ice/debris
in the break footage its pristine because fes does not produce ice when fully functional and is performingas expected and releasing steam only.

Following the break, Mission Control asked the astronauts to record television of the boom and broken tether for post-flight analysis

Its this footage that has been edited into the later footage at the beginning of all the longer versions of martins clips.

day 5 monday 26/2


day 6 tuesday 27/2


day 7 wednesday 28/2

NASA managers decided today not to return Columbia to the Tethered
Satellite for either a close inspection or a possible retrieval after
concluding that propellant margins would not be adequate to support
the operations.
The Tethered Satellite is currently 7,100 nautical miles a. of
Columbia with the distance between the two spacecraft closing at the
rate of 340 nm with every revolution of the Earth. The two spacecraft
will pass within 50 nm of one another about 11:48 p.m. Thursday, at a
Mission Elapsed Time of 7/09:30.


[edit on 4-11-2009 by spacefan]

[edit on 4-11-2009 by spacefan]



posted on Nov, 4 2009 @ 04:09 PM
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day 8 thursday 29/2

this was the day the second footage began to be shot.
Columbia and the Tethered Satellite will pass within about 51 nautical
miles of each other at 11:17 p.m. central time today (approximately
7/08:59 MET), providing the astronauts a chance to glimpse the errant
spacecraft since it separated from the orbiter Sunday night.

Day 9 Friday 1/3

Columbia's astronauts had a clear view of the Tethered Satellite as
the two spacecraft passed within about 46 nautical miles
overnight. The closest approach occurred at 11:17 central time last
night (approximately 7/08:59 MET), and was captured on videotape as
the satellite and its 12-mile tether came into view.

day 10 saturday 2/3

another waste water dump/flush.connected to the tops fes experiment.

On Saturday, March 2, 1996, 8 a.m. CST
The FES core flush procedure was identical to one carried out on the last Shuttle flight to melt ice and recover use of the subsystem which is designed as a subtle method for dumping excess water overboard without disrupting the experiments on board. The FES also cools the freon used to keep orbiter and payload electronics at operating temperatures.


day 11 sunday 3/3
day 12 monday 4/3


day 13 tuesday 5/3

another waste water dump/flush as it broke down and iced up again

The flash evaporator system core flush procedure was identical to the one carried out on Saturday to melt ice and recover use of the subsystem which is designed as a subtle method for dumping excess water overboard without disrupting the experiments on board.

Despite the intermittent freeze-up of the FES, the orbiter continues to provide a stable environment for USMP operations. Columbia is in an orbit 181 by 173 statute miles

also it was filmed for 3rd and last time

Lighting precluded a viewing opportunity during the point of closest
approach between the two spacecraft, but one orbit later the crew saw
and filmed TSS from a distance of about 450 nautical miles.


day 14 wednesday 6/3
day 15 thursday 7/3
day 16 friday 8/3
day 17 thursday 9/3


no ice no theory jim an i right.

or could the ice have been non water ice. ??

[edit on 4-11-2009 by spacefan]



posted on Nov, 4 2009 @ 04:15 PM
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They were dumping water through the FES as an experiment.

It does not mean they were NOT dumping water out of the normal ports.

Be careful! you're digging into genuine research here. You might find information you'd rather not know about, that will support a prosaic explanation.

New knowledge can be dangerous to preconceptions.



posted on Nov, 4 2009 @ 04:44 PM
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It's funny isn't it?

We have the more or less accepted theory by Jim Oberg.
Then we have the even more less accepted theory by the believers that what we are seeing is a mile (or more) wide ufo's floating around out there.

And what we have come down to is this.... It's all based on 'ice'... Ice to be or not to be.
I do understand the ice theory and close to the camera objects.
I can agree with Jim on this, the objects almost have to be small... They somehow get dimmed out by the tether and it's puny 2.54cm in diameter.
Explanation from the 'pro' ufo's on this please.

Something else i am curious about is this.....
Let's say we have a object (small object) close to the camera that is moving.
When we zoom in on that object, will it's actual speed look different from the unzoomed view?
If that is 'so' what would be the difference with a far away object that is moving and being zoomed in on?
If you noticed... I am not very good when it comes to cameras and their inner workings

Jim and all the other camera experts, please chime in on this



posted on Nov, 4 2009 @ 04:46 PM
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jim on flight 75 they rerouted thru a switch valve all waste urine to the fes flushes as ive already told you

its not my assumption but nasa data avaliable in the link provided.

its not me thats getting jumpy jim i have no vested interest here.
i am just looking for a satifactory explanation and your ice theory no longer holds any water excuse the pun as proven.

your assumption and comments may be correct for other shuttle flights but flight 75 was subject to differing circumstance as far as
the waste urine is concerned.

i am sorry if that urines all over your theory but that is all you have a theory i can show the flight data to contradict your theory at an elemental level.



science.ksc.nasa.gov...

i also read that they only wanted to dump from the rear of the cargo bay instead of the side valves because they did not want the enviroment adversly effected the whole point of the fes/tops experiments.
i have no link to that now or it may be in link provided i am not sure now.

if you know different then show different talk doesnt do it jim.



[edit on 4-11-2009 by spacefan]



posted on Nov, 4 2009 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by Balez
It's funny isn't it?

We have the more or less accepted theory by Jim Oberg.
Then we have the even more less accepted theory by the believers that what we are seeing is a mile (or more) wide ufo's floating around out there.

And what we have come down to is this.... It's all based on 'ice'... Ice to be or not to be.


correct and if jim can show us proof against any documment facts i have shown that ice was present in the volumes required he is still in there swinginand i will leave i only need to know for sure that the footage could be contaminated to let it pass.
however i dont think it was with what we have been presented with so far.



posted on Nov, 4 2009 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by spacefan
 


Well... The problem isn't the dump or proving that it occurred or not.
It could just as easily have been a leak from any number of places on the shuttle.



posted on Nov, 4 2009 @ 06:11 PM
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yeah they leak like sieves when one of the most important remits of that flight was the unadulterated enviroment for the shuttle bay footage with the camera especially commisioned for the flight and to complete the data from flight 73.

dont forget the side nozzle water dump was switched to the flash evap because one reason stated was the side ejection of waste under pressure exerts a pressure on the shuttle which takes a burn to correct, the rear central nozzles of the fes exert no external pressure on the shuttle. and the shuttle remaining stable as possible was a criterion for the crystal experiments along with a clean enviroment to film the experiment.

its not impossible and maybe drowning man jims only piece of flotsome to grab hold of..



[edit on 4-11-2009 by spacefan]

[edit on 4-11-2009 by spacefan]



posted on Nov, 4 2009 @ 06:55 PM
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And if the exact origin of the out of focus particles between the camera and the overexposed tether cannot be determined, then it is proof positive of a fleet of hundreds of over a mile-wide, identically oriented alien spacecraft cruising undetected in low Earth orbit, and a planet-wide conspiracy to cover up the existence thereof.

Logical Fallacy



posted on Nov, 4 2009 @ 07:04 PM
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who has said that please.

no ice makes it difficult to disseminate i agree so should we just go with the ice theory so as to not have to think too hard even tho there was no ice.

you have free will you go with what ever floats your boat.

me i just looking for a truer understanding of whats on the footage.





[edit on 4-11-2009 by spacefan]



posted on Nov, 5 2009 @ 12:06 AM
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Originally posted by spacefan
your assumption and comments may be correct for other shuttle flights but flight 75 was subject to differing circumstance as far as
the waste urine is concerned. i am sorry if that urines all over your theory ....



But is urine actually being diverted into the FES, or just excess drinking water?

You are obsessed with pee jokes, such as your post at www.abovetopsecret.com... where you wrote: “i must say tho i am chuffed to be the first to notice the experimental nature of the waste water being diverted to the flash evaporator to assist with the data on this mission an extension of flight 73s work i believe…. all the time line shows are the flash evoporator flush times as that was when the urine was used to suppliment the flush.”

Dunno what 'chuffed' means.

However, your excellent link to a description of the FES,
science.ksc.nasa.gov...
has this passage:


The flash evaporators are located in the aft fuselage of the orbiter. There are two evaporators in one envelope. One is the high-load evaporator; the other is the topping evaporator. There are two major differences between the evaporators. The high-load evaporator has a higher cooling capacity than the topping evaporator, and its overboard vent is only on the left side. The topping evaporator vents steam equally to the left and right sides of the orbiter, which is non-propulsive. The evaporators are cylindrical and have a finned inner core. The hot Freon-21 from the coolant loops flows around the finned core, and water is sprayed onto the core by water nozzles from either evaporator. The water vaporizes, cooling the Freon-21 coolant loops. In the low-pressure atmosphere above 100,000 feet, water vaporizes quickly. Changing water liquid to vapor removes approximately 1,000 Btu per hour per 1 pound of water. The water for the evaporators is obtained from the potable water storage tanks through water supply systems A and B.


You do know what 'potable' means, right?

Wouldn't that preclude urine as being part of that feed?



posted on Nov, 5 2009 @ 02:33 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Nov, 5 2009 @ 03:28 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Nov, 5 2009 @ 03:55 AM
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well, they do regular water dumps on this STS-75 mission. (or is it with FES?)


here is the postflight presentation mission of the STS-75 mission:
www.nss.org...


Here is just an extract from this sts-75 presentation - starting from 13:28 position - (you may know it, i posted it before):





the astronauts themselves said (if i hear well):

"we are doing this perriodically to maintain the water in the tanks [s.....] the orbiter within pretyy ?timely limit"

they are doing this periodically.

No matter a water or waste dump, those discs we see, are bokeh from closer small particles, and nobody could deny this...because it consists in the way optics works.






[edit on 5/11/09 by depthoffield]



posted on Nov, 5 2009 @ 04:22 AM
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reply to post by depthoffield
 



No matter a water or waste dump, those discs we see, are bokeh from closer small particles, and nobody could deny this...because it consists in the way optics works.

The only fault with this theory is that it doesn't click with the physics involved with spaceflight.
The objects movements is not consistent with movement in space concerning a water/waste dump.

And according to the video, do you see how nicely these ice crystals follows the shuttle?
Do you see the placement of them and the lack of movements in other directions?
Do you see how some of the disappear?
If the video was longer we would in a short time see all of them disappear.

Notice the difference from the STS-75 video?
Those so called ice particles/chips/droplets where moving all around the place.... Left, right, up and down.

Here we can clearly see the direction of the spray.
It's made so that the dump will fall back and away from the shuttle itself.
Those few twinkling ice pieces we see in this video are not the entire dump itself.
Where is the rest?

EDIT: added more text.

[edit on 5-11-2009 by Balez]



posted on Nov, 5 2009 @ 04:33 AM
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Originally posted by Balez
The only fault with this theory is that it doesn't click with the physics involved with spaceflight.


Actually it does. Maybe you are wrong in what you believe physics involved with spaceflight is in detail. This and others topics discussed various issues. Which physics is baffling you?

Well regarding water dump...just before (www.abovetopsecret.com... ) i posted extracts from a NASA study and it was a reply exactly to you! You ignore what the study says...

read again:

Originally posted by depthoffield:
[]

Now, in reality we have different forces involved, like atmospheric drag, solar pressure, plumes from RCS maintaining or changing position and attitude of the shuttle etc. Those forces change more the debris (water or other dump particles) trajectories, and therefore, their movements became even more complex.

And here is a NASA study just explaining this complexity:


Originally posted by depthoffield
.. but the NASA study (ntrs.nasa.gov... ) speaks for 19 minutes already (and these 19 minutes just because of sunset, after which paticles can't be seen)

pag 83..84:

Particles were observed promptly in the first frame taken about 1 min after the start of the dump. The optical environment is severely degraded during the dump. Several hundred particles are observed in the 0.13 sr field-of-view. []
The number of visual particles in each 2.7 s exposure is plotted in Figure 2 from the end of the dump until orbital sunset 19 min later.
There is a rapid (nearly 2 orders of magnitude) decrease in the first 6 min followed by a much slower decay.
The water ejection occurs from a jet on the opposite (port) side of the Shuttle well below the opened bay doors.
Ice particles formed in the expansion will undergo complex trajectories due to plume collision effects and atmospheric drag
.


That study allude to one particular event regarding a water dump during one particular shuttle attitude and position.

Essential is that there are tens of minutes of "optical environment degradation" just due to a water dump, and, more, no matter water dump is on oposite direction, particles have complex trajectories in orbit.
So, UFO-advocates, please don't reject this real posibility just saying "ice dissapear in space in a matter of a few seconds". You are wrong.





if you read these quotes from NASA study, then, you realise that they speak about particles appearing in the field of view of camera, despite the water dump beeing released on the oposite side of the bay (where that camera was).

Complex trajectories.

So, while a water dump send the particles away from the shuttle and logically i guess not in the direction where shuttle goes (as a design feature to minimise the optical environment polluting), there are particles going into the field of view of the camera, deteriorating the optical environment. That's why that study was done, to measure and describe the phenomenon.

Baffling physics of the water dump particles, don't you think?






[edited to reflect the editing of the previous balez post on 5/11/09 by depthoffield]

[edit on 5/11/09 by depthoffield]



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