New Analysis Video of the STS-75 Tether Incident

reply to post by depthoffield


please stop making giant quotes



TSS-1R "Tether Incident" - Shake-Reduction stabilization w/ UFO flightpath tracking (Long version)



[edit on 3-12-2009 by easynow]

Originally posted by easynow
please stop making giant quotes
all you have to do is provide a link to the post

ok, resolved that post.

Originally posted by JimOberg
The telemetry charts that show the thruster firing times and the actual pointing angles and angle rates (and autopilot errors) have been posted on the internet for years. Can you find them?

It is about thruster firings times for these STS-75 sequences?

i don't have the time to search this (already my wife warning me about spending too much time on the PC ...) but if you have this links at hand, maybe you can put it here...because since i have the time-marked version of this STS-7 video ( www.youtube.com... ), i could make some comparations.




[edit on 3/12/09 by depthoffield]

Originally posted by JimOberg
Or don't you recognize the problem with suggesting it could happen in outer space?

i think this will interest you.....

Research on Orbital Plasma-Electrodynamics (ROPE)

Since the development of probe theory by Langmuir and Blodgett, the problem of current collection by a charged spherically or cylindrically symmetric body has been investigated by a number of authors. This paper overviews the development of a fully three-dimensional particle simulation code which can be used to understand the physics of current collection in three dimensions and can be used to analyze data resulting from the future tethered satellite system (TSS).

science.nasa.gov...

Speeding through the magnetized ionospheric plasma at almost 8 km per second, the 20-km long conducting tether should create a variety of very interesting plasma electrodynamic phenomena.

science.nasa.gov...

Originally posted by JimOberg
Anybody checked out those shuttle CCTV operating specs files I linked to?

Yes thanks for posting those! I had read somewhere those cameras cost millions of dollars and that seemed a bit pricey but after reading those specifications I can now understand the high cost!

Originally posted by JimOberg

Originally posted by easynow
do energy weapons make a bit of a flash ?
just wondering

When we were running the first ATB laser prototype out behind Manzano in New Mexico in 1971-2, we discovered a bizarre effect of the beam itself. When turned on, it would illuminate its target across the valley, but the point would then DROP several inches. The beam was actually DROOPING.

It took a while to figure out -- and test, to verify -- why that was happening. Bizarre it was.

Any guesses?

Well gravity bends light beams but I'm guessing not that much so my guess would have to be atmospheric effect due to the density gradient of the atmosphere?

Originally posted by mcrom901
reply to post by easynow

 

it seems the situation is quite serious.......

Military Hush-Up: Incoming Space Rocks Now Classified

Military Seeks Common Ground with Scientists on Fireball Data Flap

Thanks for posting those links. I had seen the first one which puzzled me, but not the 2nd link, which clears up what the situation is really all about so now it makes a lot more sense!

[edit on 3-12-2009 by Arbitrageur]

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
That's an interesting case, but there are clues it's not a pure plasma craft if that's what you are inferring by asking if it's similar to the STS-75 objects which you think might be plasma..

you gotta check this.......

NASA Jumps at Patent for Plasma-Powered UFO Technology

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/291887eb0c3d.jpg[/atsimg]

Subrata Roy, an aerospace engineer from the University of Florida, recently submitted a patent application for an aircraft that just happens to come in the shape of a flying saucer. Dubbed a “winged electromagnetic air vehicle,” or WEAV, the battery-powered prototype is designed at less than 6 in. across. Even so, Roy insists that the mini sci-fi mobile could be built full-scale for missions like atmospheric surveillance—and that’s got NASA and the Air Force interested.

Powered by magnetohydrodynamics (a bulky title for the way energy generated as a current passes through a conducting fluid), WEAV would be able to lift off vertically and hover—”a saucer and a helicopter in one embodiment,” as Roy puts it. We’ve seen prototypes of choppers with vertical landing capabilities and even length-morphing rotors, but Roy is talking about virtually part-less flight: Plasma-forming electrodes would serve as a conducting fluid, causing the surrounding air to be pushed around the craft, propelling it through the sky.

That sounds like something truly meant for space, and while physics are stacked against a saucer-like vehicle for the atmosphere in the near term, Roy isn’t the only innovator with something of an upside-down eye on the sky. With reports on breakthroughs in levitation on a very small scale and the possibility of flying “magic” carpets both surfacing within the last year, maybe sci-fi and Hollywood aren’t that loosely related after all. Then again, real success in any of these fields of flight would be revolutionary. As it is, a small flying saucer might be useful as another in the long line of mini-UAVs. —Allie Townsend

more interesting stuff........

A steadily rotating plasma disk

A homogeneously rotating plasma disk can be formed in a radially directed Ar-arc discharge at reduced pressure with an externally applied axial magnetic field. The radial pressure distribution is measured, as well as the emitted continuum radiation and the arc voltage. With these experimental values profiles of temperature, radial and azimuthal current density, and flow velocity in the disk are evaluated. Viscosity determines the flow pattern essentially. The effects of magnetic field and rotational motion on the discharge are investigated. The disk exhibits at nonrigid rotation a strong centrifugal force and a minor Coriolis force. A weak double vortex is found to develop in the meridional plane. The electric field in the discharge is altered by the azimuthal plasma flow.

check this interesting piece....

www.burlingtonnews.net...

Trevor James Constable, noted military historian and engineer wrote a book titled ' Sky Creatures: Living UFOs.' He claims that some..not all...are giant aerospace organisms -

Wilhelm Reich, believed UFOs to be bio-energetic in nature.

Constable believed them to be as, "...amoebae like life forms existing in the plasma state. They are not solid, liquid, or gas. Rather. they exist in the fourth state of matter - plasma - as living heat-substance at the upper border of physical nature. They consist of calcium and fluids, the metal and the fluids both being in the plasmatic state.

...Normally hidden from us because they are in the infrared range of the electromagnetic spectrum, critters occasionally emerge into the visible portion of the spectrum... At such times they are invariably identified as UFOs - which they are, of course, although they are not constructed craft. They are living creatures. Failure to recognize this, and to distinguish creature from craft... has deeply confused UFO research.

As living organisms, critters appear to be an elemental branch of evolution probably older than most life on earth, dating from the time when the planet was more gaseous and plasmatic than solid. They are part of what occultists term 'elementals.' They live invisibly like fish in the ocean of atmosphere. Like fish, I estimate them to be of low intelligence. They will probably one day be better classified as belonging to the general field of macrobiology or even macrobacteria inhabiting the aerial ocean we call the sky."


Fortean investigators like Ivan T. Sanderson found the theory credible. Among other things, Constable believes these creatures are responsible for cattle mutilations and provides some case histories to support this. Researcher Larry Arnold believes that these plasmamoeboids--whom he dubs in gratitude to Mr. Constable with the scientific name Amoebae constablea-- emit energies that may be a cause of Spontaneous Human Combustion if they are in close proximity to a human being.

They apparently can be photographed even if invisible, through color movie or camera film used in conjunction with a Wratten 18A ultraviolet filter. Visible color photographs result despite the fact that the filter is nearly opaque, due to a "reverse spectrum" process whose explanation still escapes me.

Infrared film can also ferret them out and I must confess that one picture I took at night yielded a faint image of what seemed to be paramecium-like object over my neighborhood! Using this method, detecting critters is usually most successful at dusk and dawn.

A 1980 issue of FATE had a helpful article on this approach. For psychotronic film buffs, the documentary Overlords of the UFO contains footage of them hopping like jumping beans near power cables.

The late J. Allen Hynek would neither confirm nor deny the idea, however interesting, and succinctly answered that not enough was known.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
Thanks for posting those links. I had seen the first one which puzzled me, but not the 2nd link, which clears up what the situation is really all about so now it makes a lot more sense!

you're welcome..... but how does it make more sense

coming back to the plasma issue....

The RETE and TEMAG experiments for the TSS missions

main sites......

NASA - SPACE PLASMA PHYSICS

The Space Plasma Physics Group at Marshall Space Flight Center

Originally posted by mcrom901

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
That's an interesting case, but there are clues it's not a pure plasma craft if that's what you are inferring by asking if it's similar to the STS-75 objects which you think might be plasma..

you gotta check this.......

NASA Jumps at Patent for Plasma-Powered UFO Technology

Powered by magnetohydrodynamics ...(snip)... Plasma-forming electrodes would serve as a conducting fluid, causing the surrounding air to be pushed around the craft, propelling it through the sky.

My senior year in high school I wrote a paper on how magnetohydrodynamic (MHD for short) power generation could double the efficiency of the power generating plants, so MHD has fascinated me for years. And while that saucer propulsion technology in your link could push air molecules around in the atmosphere for propulsion, there aren't too many molecules to move in space so I'm not sure if that's supposed to relate to a space topic like STS-75 somehow, but it's still interesting.

Based on the research I did the biggest impediment to implementing MHD in some applications like power generation is that it was really hard on the materials used in construction, they eroded away, but that was years ago and I haven't researched it lately. But it's a great way to put plasma to work.

[edit on 3-12-2009 by Arbitrageur]

more data regarding the tether......

Radiation from long conducting tethers moving in the near-earth environment

In connection with the presently developed TSS (tethered satellite system) project, we consider the problem of radiation of electromagnetic waves from a long conducting tether moving in the ionosphere. In particular, we address to radiation of low-frequency plasma modes, from ULF up to the electron cyclotron frequency. Both the case of a passive tether (no generator) and that of a tether driven as an antenna are considered.

Dynamic Analysis of a Light Structure in Outer Space: Short Electrodynamic Tether

On some electromagnetic phenomena in the tether magnetoplasma cloud

Motion parameters of an electrodynamic tether in orbit

Tether Satellite System Collision Study

and finally....

Ideas of Exotic Forms of Life

Science and speculation have converged at the boundaries of human imagination to conceive of some very exotic states of matter and/or energy that have been claimed by their authors to represent alternative forms of life or to exhibit life-like characteristics. Those ideas have been advanced by serious thinkers and thus deserve to be evaluated in the context of our assumptions about the fundamental nature of life.We will briefly mention some of the most important ideas proposed and critically examine them in light of our proposed definition advanced in Chap. 2 that living entities are (1) composed of self-organizing, local bounded environments in thermodynamic disequilibrium with their surrounding, (2) capable of transforming energy to maintain a low-entropy state and perform work, and (3) capable of information encoding and transmission through indefinite cycles of replication. Only if all of those three criteria are met, does the proposed idea constitute a viable alternative form of life in our view.

9.1 Life Based on Spin Configurations

In Chap. 5.2.9 we discussed the possibility of obtaining energy from spin configurations. Feinberg and Shapiro (1980) took this idea a step further and speculated on the possibility of life based on spin configurations of p-hydrogen and o-hydrogen (Fig. 5.7). They suggested an organism with a helium interior, an inner o-hydrogen layer and an outer p-hydrogen layer, which would be capable of controlled processes and obtaining energy by the process described in Chap. 5.2.9. The living environment envisioned was a very cold and dark planet, just a few 10s of degrees above absolute zero. In this type of environment solid hydrogen would be floating in a sea of liquid hydrogen. An input of energy, most suitably from a faint star with emissions in the weak infrared and microwave wavelengths, would be absorbed by hydrogen, thereby transferring some of the hydrogen into the energy-rich ortho-hydrogen state. The energy stored in the o-hydrogen state would then be released when the atoms are transformed into the p-hydrogen state. Feinberg and Shapiro (1980) suggested that for such life to form, a precise arrangement of o- and p-hydrogen would need to be established.

Originally posted by mcrom901
you're welcome..... but how does it make more sense

I thought the article was self explanatory about that so you might try re-reading it.

It seems to me like it's classified for reasons similar to why the "project mogul" found at Roswell was classified, both technologies related to nuclear detection capabilities and had sensitive aspects. One could surmise the US doesn't want everyone else to be aware of how sensitive the detection technology really is nor know the details of how that technology works.

But the biggest problem was it sounds like they didn't have any systems and procedures for routine data release and that's what they needed to develop to keep sharing the unclassified data about fireball explosions with scientists. (Apparently there was an inadvertent release of classified data and that's what sparked the whole issue). But it sounds like they do plan to share the fireball data again after developing those procedures.

If you are implying they are testing plasma weapons in space and that's the part of the data they don't want released that could be possible but I'm not sure exactly how that relates to STS-75, are we now proposing the possibility that what we see in the STS-75 video is related to plasma weapons fire or something? I'm not quite following the connection.

Originally posted by JimOberg

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Thanks for mentioning the infamous STS-48 zig-zag UFO video, because here are some insights from an expert about that.

For the whole article.

www.vgl.org...

Thanks for the opportunity to share this with you. Fleming is no expert,

Your welcome, but Fleming did not claim that he is an expert, he said right from the beginning in his article.

In a discussion with a NASA aerospace engineer familiar with the space shuttle reaction control system , I learned that the thrusters never generate any light while operating, but they always emit a small cloud of unburned propellant just before the thruster fires and a much larger cloud immediately after the thruster shuts.

Originally posted by JimOberg
and the claimed quotes he got from some unnamed expert whose name can't be revealed, are garbled -- say the real experts.

So now you want me to believe that those quotes are garbled because it is said by some real experts whose names are also not revealed?

Then another thing,

Originally posted by JimOberg

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by JimOberg

 

RCS jets do seem to make a bit of a flash.

Thanks, Phage, that's exactly the picture spacevisitor's "expert" Lan Fleming used in his linked report trying to prove that RCS plumes are invisible in the dark -- except, this picture was TAKEN in the dark. I guess if you choose your conclusions first, you have to really the lower the bar on what passes for an 'expert'.

Read again what is said in the article regarding that specific picture, and take notice of the fact that it isn’t dark in my opinion because the shuttle’s cargo bay bathes in light as that picture clearly shows.



Figure 3: Photograph showing plumes of unburned propellant emitted by three RCS thrusts simultaneously.

In Figure 3, plumes from two primary RCS rockets on the left can clearly be seen. [5] The dull reddish glow on the right is apparently from an aft-firing primary thruster, making a total of three thrusters simultaneously emitting plumes of what must be unburned propellant – an unlikely coincidence if such emissions were sporadic rather than routine consequences of thruster firings.

Then you really want me to believe that those relative small thruster plumes are responsible for the movement of those objects in question?

Come on Jim, you must be yoking right?

[edit on 3/12/09 by spacevisitor]

[edit on 3/12/09 by spacevisitor]

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by JimOberg

Originally posted by JimOberg

When we were running the first ATB laser prototype out behind Manzano in New Mexico in 1971-2, we discovered a bizarre effect of the beam itself. When turned on, it would illuminate its target across the valley, but the point would then DROP several inches. The beam was actually DROOPING.

It took a while to figure out -- and test, to verify -- why that was happening. Bizarre it was.

Any guesses?

Well gravity bends light beams but I'm guessing not that much so my guess would have to be atmospheric effect due to the density gradient of the atmosphere?

Gravitational lensing as it's called would only be noticeable over immense distances, and the source of gravity would have to be huge, eg a star/collapsed star.

Sounds like thermal expansion to me. As the laser warms up, it's housing and internal components would heat up. Some of those might heat up more/expand more than others, and the aim of the laser could easily be affected.

There could be other causes too perhaps, such as the effect of the atmosphere, thermal inversion layers etc. as Arbitrageur says, but thermal expansion would be my bet.


[edit on 3-12-2009 by C.H.U.D.]

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by JimOberg
When we were running the first ATB laser prototype out behind Manzano in New Mexico in 1971-2, we discovered a bizarre effect of the beam itself. When turned on, it would illuminate its target across the valley, but the point would then DROP several inches. The beam was actually DROOPING.

It took a while to figure out -- and test, to verify -- why that was happening. Bizarre it was.

Any guesses?

Well gravity bends light beams but I'm guessing not that much so my guess would have to be atmospheric effect due to the density gradient of the atmosphere?

Very good... It was a refraction effect.

Now here's the kicker.

The density gradient was self-induced.

The beam heated the air. It rose.

Colder, denser air was sucked in below.

Not MUCH, but enough to create a density
gradient in the air column through which the
beam was propagating.

We changed the test WX specs to require a
windy day. That fixed the problem to 'close enough'.

Sounds like thermal expansion to me. As the laser warms up, it's housing and internal components would heat up. Some of those might heat up more/expand more than others, and the aim of the laser could easily be affected.

There could be other causes too perhaps, such as the effect of the atmosphere, thermal inversion layers etc. as Arbitrageur says, but thermal expansion would be my bet.

Attaboy! You got the effect correct, you must have
gotten your hands dirty in life building stuff that
caught you by surprise when it performed ....
differently than planned. Whence cometh wisdom.




[edit on 3-12-2009 by JimOberg]

Originally posted by spacevisitor
So now you want me to believe that those quotes are garbled because it is said by some real experts whose names are also not revealed?

Would you accept as one definition of an 'expert' to be any engineer who has been certified for Mission Control Center operations in the decision-making loop regarding OMS/RCS systems?

Originally posted by spacevisitor
Read again what is said in the article regarding that specific picture, and take notice of the fact that it isn’t dark in my opinion because the shuttle’s cargo bay bathes in light as that picture clearly shows.

The NASA description of the photo is:

images.jsc.nasa.gov...

During STS-39 rendezvous maneuvers, two of Discovery's, Orbiter Vehicle (OV) 103's, right reaction control system (RCS) jets fire (one up and one to the right). The RCS jet firings create a glow around OV-103's orbital maneuvering system (OMS) pods and vertical tail against the blackness of space. Some reflection from the crew compartment windows is visible. In the foreground are the Space Test Payload 1 (STP-1) multipurpose experiment support structure (MPESS) (front) and the Air Force Program 675 (AFP-675) experiment support system (ESS) (back). The remote manipulator system (RMS) arm is stowed along the port side sill longeron.

This does not specify the date/time of the image, but that ought to be on record, and then could be tracked down to where in the orbit the shuttle was at that time.

But I don't think you have enough experience viewing space scenes in all varieties of illumination to judge what's daylight and what's not. The light in the payload bay is coming, to my interpretation, from the floodlights, a scene i've seen numerous times on screens in the MCC. If it were external lighting that was illuminating the plumes, how come the pods that the plumes are coming from are dark?

Originally posted by JimOberg
But I don't think you have enough experience viewing space scenes in all varieties of illumination to judge what's daylight and what's not.

whats your take on this?



bonus items: visible stars + ufo

my guess..the moonlight?

edit: and Orion




[edit on 3/12/09 by depthoffield]

Originally posted by mcrom901

Originally posted by JimOberg
But I don't think you have enough experience viewing space scenes in all varieties of illumination to judge what's daylight and what's not.

whats your take on this?

bonus items: visible stars + ufo

Beautiful sequence of thruster firings -- the sort of thing Fleming says his expert said were invisible at night -- and the moon, and Story Musgrave (you know, the astronaut who says that no astronaut's ever seen indications of alien life on space flights) discussing it with MCC. And -- oh yeah, you did notice the object that came out of the payload bay, probably was a few inches long. Was that your alien starcraft? Probably a plasma critter's cocoon.

Originally posted by JimOberg
Beautiful sequence of thruster firings -- the sort of thing Fleming says his expert said were invisible at night -- and the moon,

hmmm.... so the moon here, makes it night....

Originally posted by JimOberg
and Story Musgrave (you know, the astronaut who says that no astronaut's ever seen indications of alien life on space flights) discussing it with MCC.

not about 'snakes' i suppose.....

Originally posted by JimOberg
And -- oh yeah, you did notice the object that came out of the payload bay, probably was a few inches long. Was that your alien starcraft?

loool... whats a starcraft?

Originally posted by JimOberg
Probably a plasma critter's cocoon.

thats a tough one.... like the chicken n egg......

Originally posted by mcrom901

Originally posted by JimOberg
Beautiful sequence of thruster firings -- the sort of thing Fleming says his expert said were invisible at night -- and the moon,

hmmm.... so the moon here, makes it night....

Let me use shorter words.

Dark space shuttle exterior. No sun.

Maybe eclipse. Otherwise night time.

Camera stopped way open to show lots of stars.

Moon glare overwhelming (sorry -- 4 syllables -- OK?).