Christians, it is your responsibility

reply to post by zefiro


Stalin was an atheist you cannot deny that, he was also a man that persecuted and killed a great many simply for their membership in certain churches. But do you blame atheism at large for such excesses? No, and neither should you. But you do blame Christianity at large for the excesses of some of it's number. Do you not see the obvious bias here?

[edit on 10-6-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


Again, I think you are missing the point of my premise and probably haven't had time enough to read through the thread to grasp how the discussion has evolved. I do admit, though, my OP could have been written much better.

The premise is not about blaming anyone for the excesses of individuals claiming to be part of their group, be they Christian, athiest or cavier-eaters.

It is about allowing those who commit the excesses to use the authority and reputation of a group(Christians) for negative purposes while the real members remain silent.

It hurts people when a false evangelist preys on people's beliefs and steal stheir money. Why are the real Christians silent?

It hurts people when a corrupt politician is able to suck thousands of extra votes just by saying he is a Christian. Why are the real Christians silent?

It is the silence that they are responsible for. The reason I picked Christians is because I live in the Western world and there are a whole bunch of people doing bad things while claiming to be Christian. . .what I don't hear in the media or in conversation or anywhere accessible to the Western world at large are the good, law-abiding, reasonable Christians telling all of us that these people are not Christians.

That is all it would take to take these bad apples out. That is all. So, yeah, Christians are responsible because the effort it would take to make the world a better place is so small.

Also, in case you missed it, this is not an anti-Christian thread. It could easily be considered an anti-Fundie thread, but those are two different things. Christians would benefit more than anyone else by speaking up.

Heck, some of my best friends are Christian.

Originally posted by derekcollins79
reply to post by zefiro

 

although there are many Christian resources that do that now. Your call for such a thing suggests right away that you have even scratched the surface, and it's fairly easy to find. We all should be a little bit educated on a subject before we open our mouths as experts about it.

That is encouraging to hear and if you want to provide me a bit more information about those groups, it would be appreciated. The groups that people have suggested that I look at thus far has pretty much just been to promote websites that actually defended fundamentalists, so I am a bit skeptical about your claim. I would love to be wrong, though.

I believe that your little attack actually proves my point a bit.

Let's assume you are correct and that I am like most Americans who haven't even scratched the surface. As that typical non-Christian American, the media and politicians and voters have told me that these are the values of all Christians. (Christians are all Right-Wing Republicans, Christians don't understand science, Christians want to have assault weapons, Christians kill abortion doctors, Christians elect KKK and racist politicians into office, Christian leaders are sexual deviants, Christians are stupid for giving money to televangelists, etc.)

NOTE: I know someone will intentionally misinterpret that these are my views of Christians. They are not. These stereotypes disgust me. Read it again if you are confused.



It is these stereotypes that Christians need to fight. Us ordinary Americans need to be given an alternative view of who real Christians are otherwise why wouldn't we believe in the only information that is presented to us. It is not the responsibilty of the millions and millions of people with their own life worries to research or spend their precious time learning about you. It is your responsibility to use your considerable power to raise your voices and kill off these stereotypes.

I am hoping that the information you are providing to me is about people trying to do this. Get real Christians on news programs and other media, be the loudest voice denouncing televangelist or politician or media person when they prove not to be Christian. Again, all we need is some noise from the good guys.

Side note: You sent a reply to me that seemed to indicate you thought that the whole Stalin reference was mine. It wasn't. I thought it was just as horrible as you did.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
Stalin was an atheist you cannot deny that ...

Lol.

Stalin only pretended to be an Atheist. He "suppressed" his religious beliefs in order to "accept" ideology Communist party in Russia had at the time.

He rejected Theory of evolution ...

He called atheistic literature junk and did not allow it in his personal library.

Yep, perverted and evil Communist who pretended to be an Atheist ...

Stalin IMO called himself Atheist for political reasons just like many politicians in USA call them self Christian

reply to post by 5thElement


Um, rrriiiggghhhttttt.... Couple of questions if you will........
1) Where is your proof that he only "supressed" his religious beliefs in order to participate in the Communist party?
2) Since when is evolution implicitly atheistic? And, secondly, since when is belief in it required in order for one to aspire to a label who's dictionary definition is as follows?:

Main Entry: athe·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈā-thē-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French athéisme, from athée atheist, from Greek atheos godless, from a- + theos god
Date: 1546
1archaic : ungodliness, wickedness
2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity

SOURCE:www.merriam-webster.com...
*Nope, sure don't see evolution even being mentioned.*
And for the second time, where is your proof?
3) One must enjoy books written by other adherents of a label in order to assume that label???? Who made this rule while I wasn't looking? Seems almost a magical-ish thought, like most of your statements in this post.... And once again *third time*, where is your proof?

Stalin IMO called himself Atheist for political reasons just like many politicians in USA call them self Christian

Your opinion doesn't seem to count for much friend for the reasons I spoke of above....

Zefiro my question is this. You as a non christian are blaming christians for the acts of others if i am reading all this correct and you want the ones who are good christians to share or take blame for the actions of others?
Let me say this first of all. if you were a christian you would understand the absurdity of this from a christian standpoint.

Christianity for the most of us is NOT about being extremist and loud mouthed and crazy to enforce our views or beliefs. Its about living the best life as Jesus wanted us to with compassion,mercy,forgiveness and love to ones neighbors which doesnt mean neighbor in the sense of who is next door. It means everyone. It means to be a neighbor to your fellow man. It does NOT mean challenging in confrontation everyone who claims to represent your faith in a false way.

Jesus warned us that there would be those who would be false and we would know them by the fruits of their works. A bad tree cannot give forth good fruit etc ect. See book of matthew so i dont have to quote scripture. Anyways the point is jesus wanted us to BE the example not jump up everytime some idiot goes crazy and acts like a loon and claims its for god and jesus.
I do agree with you on one thing though. We should as christians be showing what it means to really be a christian but that involves LOVE. It doesnt involve sinning ourselves through anger and provocation of misguided people. It involves trying to bring those people back into the light of Jesus ministry and what he taught.

Those people who think hating is right and in the name of god dont have a clue. I have tried to speak to those i know who are racist and yet go to church and worship god. I try to make them see that jesus himself was a jew how do you hate jews? Jesus worshiped in a synagogue and preached the scriptures of the jewish people at the time as well as giving a message to man about loving each other. How do you make people see the folly of what they do? How do you make someone who has such extreme fundamentalist ideals see the truth of what they are doing? How do you get them to stop using there free will to view the scriptures in the way they do? Heck i dunno but i have tried. I have tried in the ways i can where i can when i can and thats about all any real christian can do is to witness where and when they can and be the example. We are not perfect but jesus calls us to try and live a perfect life. "Therefore ye shall be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect" Math 5:48.

If i engage in radical behavior in an attempt to stop these people your talking about i would be less the christian i need to be and just another fundamentalist with my own agenda and my own viewpoints. Yes christians need to stand up and be counted and yes we need to be the light of the world and the salt of the earth as Jesus has stated. We need to be the city set on the hill so all can see but that does not mean tangling with the enemy and trying to forcefully put a stop to these people. They have their opportunities to do evil and god takes account of this.
Jesus said many will come to him in the last days claiming to have done great things in his name and he will tell them to depart for he knew them not!

Now from what i have read of your post it seems to me your pretty angry about these crazy christian types who you feel we nice christians need to stand up to. What are YOU doing to stand up and stop them. What are you doing yourself to promote a more positive way to these people? Its easy to point fingers and blame but a christian knows that this is not the way. Jesus did not make war with those who defied him or refused to believe. He became the sacrifice so that all who believe in him may have everlasting life. This man died beleiving this in the hopes others would also believe and follow his example. I could cast stones at these sinners of the christian faith but it in no way will raise up the church to a higher place in gods eye only yours.

Maybe I should go back and edit the OP, that's like 4 posters in a row who have misinterpreted it.

fizzy,
Actually, I am upset about the Christian's silence about the actions of those that claim they are Christian, rather than blaming Christians for the actions of others.

It's about having the compassion to spend a little energy to organize yourselves and take back your public reputation from the Fundies. It's not putting yourself into harms way or being confrontational or anything else you are uncomfortable with.

How do you speak to a fundamentalist to see the truth? That is a problem lots of people have been trying to crack for a long time. That is not what the thread is about. It isn't about saving them, it's about helping to save us, both Christian and non, from them. And I do think that Christians bear a higher responsibility to do so. Other Christians will listen to you much more than they would to me.

BTW, the best techniques for talking to a Fundie that I've presonally found are compassion, gentleness, persistance, and lots and lots of patience.

What am I doing? Well, I'm not a Christian, so it's not my responsibility. Actually, this was a pretty recent epiphany for me, so I haven't done much. This thread was generated after a conversation that my wife and I had with a Christian couple that we are friends with. Seeing how upset they were with the way that the general public percieve Christians made me start trying to think of ways to fix it. This couple also had a huge struggle with the recent Presidential election. They were torn between 'know them by their works' and the guy good Christians were 'supposed' to vote for because he was more 'Christian'.

I put both of things together and decided to create the thread. I wanted to put these premises out there so you wolves would challenge it, come up with ideas to improve it and to otherwise evolve it into extinction or into something better. I don't have a plan for what I'm going to do with this yet, I don't have any real high-level Christian contacts and it is frustrating that my few Christian friends are a little too sheep-like to forward an idea like this up the ladder. I'll figure something out, though, and will probably fail miserably.

reply to post by zefiro


Perhaps it would be an affront to the teachings and example of Jesus for Christians to oppose the radical Christians. Not that they agree with the radical Christians, but that the opposition would put them at odds with those teachings, and that example. Such as praying in public, Jesus called those that do 'hypocrites'. There is no 'win' situation against radical elements of any religion.

I must chime in...

If by "fundimentalist" it is the view that only believers in Christ will be saved and the unbelievers will be damned for their rebellion against God, than I am a fundimentalist. But then the word is also used by the fearmongers as a cuss word to instill hatred and horror in the weak minded people of the world that those fundies are out to get them like nazi boot strappers.

Let me clear up some points... While the Bible and Christ teach forgiveness and love this does not mean we forget personal responsibility and accountability. This is why we have laws so that if you kill someone, you should suffer the same fate as justice for your crime. If you try to kill me, I will do my best to kill you first, as it is my duty to take care and to preserve the life God gave to me. In the same sense, if you were to be seen by me to be assaulting my next door neighbor, I will use justifiable force to stop you from doing it any further. All this is love. But would you sit back in horror and call me insine..? No.. not at all. It is a loving society that stops evil when it raises it's ugly head.

This brings me to the point of war. War is not evil, it is not bad, IF it be used as a tool to preserve life, defend the innocent, and protect a nation from those that would harm it. War is only evil in the hands of the evil-doers.

Christ is love, but when Christ returns he will be making war upon the Earth doing what is needed to stop the evil. He did say to love your enemies, which means to do them no harm on your part. But once they try to hurt you, do what you have to to make them stop. God has said that vengence belongs to Him, and in the end He will give it out to all that deserve it.

BTW, we are about to find out if it is love to let N. Korea and Iran have the nukes instead of making them give them up. What do you think they will do as loving neighbors with them..?

[edit on 11-6-2009 by Fromabove]

reply to post by fizzy1



You are correct that Christians should not point the finger and lay blame. They should reveal the scripture and let God handle it. Jeus, while he was a sacrifice, never backed down to evil, nor did He ever comprimise the truth. In that sense he was already at war with the world and it's ways. But His war was faught with words not swords. As Christians we should love our enemies, yes, but this does not mean to ever comprimise the word of God, nor to ever give in to them in the name of "love". Love is to tell them the truth always. Sin and rebellion will cause a person's death and destruction from God, repentance and acceptance of Christ will save that life. There is a war going on for the souls of people. And a good soilder needs to always have the best weapons to fight it. In our case, it is the word of God. I'm just hoping that ypu don't get snookered into the guilt trip the OP is attempting to lay at the feet of the Christians.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
1) Where is your proof that he only "supressed" his religious beliefs in order to participate in the Communist party?

Where is yours? Lol. Mass media ?

I thought that you new age religion guys "determined" that theory of evolution, big bang and other scientific theories are part of atheistic religious doctrine ?

Why do you actually need the proof ? Like you gonna change your opinion about it if the one was presented ?

Do you really believe that what western and anti-communist propaganda tells you about Stalin is absolutely true or for anyone else from that region for that matter?

Do you really believe that that same propaganda machine would not lie about his stance on God just to make their case about atrocities in the name of communism he did stronger ?

You are just gonna have to believe me, lol.

I read this book: Secret life of Stalin and I got different insight from what the mainstream media is telling us (it's in Russian BTW).

But, hey, you can believe whatever you want to believe, it must be true as long as it is in line with your views, lol.

Being Anti-religion is not the same as being Atheist (no, you did not say that it is)

reply to post by zefiro


You really don't understand. Remember when Israel was determined to elect a king? This is a long time ago so please keep that in mind. Up until this time God spoke through Samuel to the people.

1 Samuel 10:17-19 17 And Samuel called the people together unto the LORD to Mizpeh; 18 and said unto the children of Israel, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all kingdoms, and of them that oppressed you: 19 and ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.


You see it's what they wanted. The people wanted a big handsome king to go before them and represent them. They were determined. So God gave them what they wanted.

Now look around at the influences of this world. The television the radio the super stars of Hollywood. What are they telling us? Exactly what we want. Can you say illuminati?

Originally posted by The Killah29
Has anyone seen the hell the world has become thanks to religion (mosty Christianity)? This is all bull, religion is all bull (except Bhudism, it's not a religion). There is no god!

Man would end up destroying itself before any "god" , "Deity", or what ever you call it shows up, and no god will save us when we do end up destroying ourselves. The insane will be the ones praying as the nukes fall.

Hi/
Say's who that Buddhism is NOT a religion?
Says YOU!
Who is the Buddha statue thing they have?

I guess the INSANE ones will know who they are then!!
You say you have no belief of God ,
BUT then you CONTRADICT yourself with quote///and no god will save us when we do?
Do Insane people pray?

IX
helen

OP I think your very first point need to be discussed.


"1. Christian fundamentalists pervert the values of Christ."

But is it not true that Christian Fundamentalists take the Bible LITERALLY?
I might be mistaken but I was under the impression that Fundamentalism meant Literal when used in conjunction with Religion?

Taking the Bible Literally would be distorting the values of Christ?

So you are FORCED to make an interpretation of the Bible if you are going to read it?

OP so you are saying taking the Bible as being a fact or truth is INCORRECT?

That I have to CHANGE what is written in the Bible and Interpret it in order to be able to use it at ALL?

Slippery Slope.

Originally posted by zefiro
So, I am implying that you real followers of Christ share the blame every time a law is passed that sacrifices the weak to wealth. You share the blame for every live sacrificed to Fundamentalist hate. You share the blame for the suffering of all those people seduced by these faiths

Your silence is your guilt.

Show me how I am wrong. Seriously.

Sorry. My faith is between my God and myself. I don't answer to you or a church.

People are responsible for their own actions. Just like as a member of ATS, I am not responsible for what ever you publish here. You are.

Your words, your thoughts, your deeds are all your own. You get the party hat when you do good, and the foot in your butt when you screw the pooch. Simple as that.

You're welcome.

...

Sweet! Now I'm getting some challenges that make me think a bit. Thank You.

Perhaps it would be an affront to the teachings and example of Jesus for Christians to oppose the radical Christians. Not that they agree with the radical Christians, but that the opposition would put them at odds with those teachings

Spacepunk,
That is an issue. I guess my answer to it would be that Christ was pretty vocal disagreeing with what was assumed to be the correct religion of the time. Although fundamentalists are a smaller faction now, they dominate public perception. I imagine that Jesus would have something to say about that. I don't think I want to drag this thread in the direction of theorizing what Jesus would do today, but that's my answer. I think refusing to deny false teachings is not a proper interpretation of Christ's life.

Fromabove,
What I am defining as Fundamentalist for the purposes of this thread is how most of non-Christian American culture perceives Christianity, which in my view, is not an accurate portrayal of 80% of Christians.

You really don't understand.

jackflap,
Maybe your right. That is an interesting point that you brought up. I disagree, though, that we are in the same situation. The people now did not ask for Fundamentalist domination of the media. A minority did, they organized themselves very well, created a great power base and became noisy enough to force feed the rest of us this view that all Christians are rightwing zealots, which some of us know is simply not true.

But is it not true that Christian Fundamentalists take the Bible LITERALLY?

Turkeyburgers,
I actually disagree pretty strongly that Fundamentalists take the Bible literally. They take parts of the Bible literally and ignore or reinterpret the parts that don't fit them. Heavy OT, Heavy Revelations (although that is interpreted in most cases. . .), Light on the Gospels. At least that is my perception being an ex-Fundamentalist.

Just like as a member of ATS, I am not responsible for what ever you publish here. You are.

redoubt,
Let me turn this example a bit.

What if I, as a fellow member of ATS, decided to organize and was able to bring inaccurate media attention to ATS? I make the case on Hannity's and Olbermann's programs that ATS is full of dangerous, violent nutjobs. That ATS is a hotbed of terrorism. That one poster is telling Christians to organize. Let's say I'm good enough that Congress begins considering laws to take ATS down and the FBI start charging members with conspiracy to commit x.

As an ATS member, is it your responsibility to protect ATS and, by proxy, your own interests? Is it your responsibility to let people know that I am a liar and fool?

I say, yes, it is our responsibility as part of the ATS community to defend it. If you say no, then we either have a philosophical difference that probably can't be resolved here (or else I just suck at explaining myself.)

[edit on 6/13/2009 by zefiro]

Originally posted by zefiro
What if I, as a fellow member of ATS, decided to organize and was able to bring inaccurate media attention to ATS? I make the case on Hannity's and Olbermann's programs that ATS is full of dangerous, violent nutjobs. That ATS is a hotbed of terrorism. That one poster is telling Christians to organize. Let's say I'm good enough that Congress begins considering laws to take ATS down and the FBI start charging members with conspiracy to commit x.

As an ATS member, is it your responsibility to protect ATS and, by proxy, your own interests? Is it your responsibility to let people know that I am a liar and fool?

I say, yes, it is our responsibility as part of the ATS community to defend it. If you say no, then we either have a philosophical difference that probably can't be resolved here (or else I just suck at explaining myself.)

[edit on 6/13/2009 by zefiro]

Actually, I might feel compelled to defend the US Constitution because if a few MSM cranks can move the US Congress (Or DoJ) to act so irresponsibly, it's probably time to change the nation's diaper anyway.

As for ATS itself, it would be a personal decision... whether I personally felt that by standing up for/with ATS, I was either directly or indirectly supporting the Constitution. Beyond that, this is a privately owned website with owners whom I am sure are quite capable of loading a broadside in their own defense. If they want to rally the troops, they will sound the call.

Anyway, this all goes back to Cain (ref: Christian Bible) asking whether or not he was his brother's keeper. God probably understood the concept but didn't care too much for the delivery. In point of fact, he (Cain) was not responsible for keeping track of his brother but he was guilty of his murder. There is a line that was crossed between personal accountability and then, responsibility, again, for one's actions... in this case, the killing.

So... my previous answer is withstanding and remains the same.

...





[edit on 13-6-2009 by redoubt]

[edit on 13-6-2009 by redoubt]

I hope christ comes back, saves all the people who society rejected and moves on leaving the rest to suffer under there own ignorant haven of nothing but nothing at all..

I have the anger of the Lord inside me at this issue, as I grew up with an ignorant christian parent. Who constantly worried even when the bible said not to. And his need to keep himself doing things for himself never allowed our family to be one. So yes Christians use Christ too often for opportunism. Yet we must be careful as many goats are in sheeps clothing. And are deliberately out to soil the name of the truth. By hiding and using it to benefit themselves. Jesus sees the truth, but still waiting..

Personally I think religion is holding humanity back through fear, and hatred of non-believers and not mention they have an attitude problem OVER BEARRING PRIDE, I also believe that religious people are simply to brainwashed, weak minded, and narrow minded and SPECIALLY IRRESPONSIBLE. Remember under the name of your GOD, "YOU" have slaughtered millions of people in the past and in the present.

Remember anything you religious people do WILL REFLECT on your entire religion and anyone that follows it. I say it because that’s how I see things now and I will not be selective of anyone, the way you think is also the way you react, act, write and speak. When I say you religious people it is not limited to Christians but to all mainstream religion, the three great religion that brought slaughter and decay to this world under the name of GOD. Religion is the ULTIMATE suppressor of true spirituality, why is that so many indigenous were slaughtered under the name of GOD, you think them meditating, performing their ritual is satanic? Look at your own religion it’s filled with Satanism and occultism, you religion is A CULT, you worship the SUN every SUNDAY. The very imagery that you use literally came from the IRISH DRUIDS and the religious community deemed them as Satanist yet they were using the Cross long before Christians have and now Christians are using it. The reason why the indigenous people were slaughter and suppressed is because THEY HAD KNOWLEDGE OF SPIRITUALITY/METAPHYSIC AND THEY KNOW THE TRUE HISTORY AND ORIGIN OF THE HUMAN RACE. You want to control people take away their history and implant a belief that makes them think they are inferior, they are filth, and they are LAMBS and use force if necessary make them believe it by doing so it cuts all ties to the natural world and cuts out the spirit.

But I will give credit to Religion they are right in terms of creation, and I give credit to Science for in terms of evolution and the big bang theory. God is both male and female, the male aspect is the thought and the female aspect is the actual birthing/creation of physicality and spirit. The spirit was created by the goddess and given a gift of independence; freewill; freedom of expression with one condition YOU DO NOT VIOLATE FREEWILL. So this brings the concept of IS-NESS.
“The idea that intent is the primal force of creation. It is the Is-ness whose intent and desire to explore and expand Itself, in all possible openness, that creates all physical matter on all dimensions. It is this which has made it possible for us, as well, to explore our Selves to completion. Therefore, know this - the first material in creation is the electron. It is the 'tool' to build upon in the creation of physical reality. Now, let's look at you - the human. Look at yourself in the mirror. Your physicality is compose of atoms, which form into molecules, which then become cells. You are a symphony of electrons, atoms and molecules of intent. All of you are a complex of intents or desires. Many of you walk around and ask for a miracle, when you are in fact that which you ask for. From beginning to end, physical matter is a network of intent. The Is-ness then spins consciousness into the matter, and what you have is life. What you see and experience is only the smallest part of you. The outer expression of an inner event. The pattern for your human form is created in Spirit, and the body is composed of a collection of intents, each one having a particular function, all geared toward the sustenance of your human-ness."” - Alex Collier
In other words you are god and god is you, all in one and one in all. The exterior is not reality, it is a mere reflection of inner mind

Here is some metaphysics/spirituality
•Consciousness is the space which the spirit whishes to evolve in.
•Human beings are consciousness that has sought away to express itself in this material world by taking on physical form.