This is from a pagan/Deist and Master Mason (raised baptist) point of view.

Just to get it started-Masons DO NOT EAT BABIES NOR DO WE SECRETLY RUN THE WORLD! Hell, our numbers are even falling. But i digress.

Jesus would go nuts at what the Church did in the early days and perverted his work into. He would REALLY have a fit at the "Cashtianity" thats going on. Remember the scene with him, a big stick, and the money changers?


Modern religious politics have further stripped the power from the "less leader-like". Christianity was never supposed to be about total submission. Jesus always seemed to be about " find the truth yourself". The whole "those with eyes, those with ears " thing was brilliant. The majority of the bible (other than for history) could have been tossed and the "red letters" kept. The best were the parables. Sages before and since couldn't have done better.

Peter and the early church politicized it all. Romans, go figure!

Jesus, constantly, was getting under the skin of the PTB. Stupid laws that contradicted common sense was always being challenged. Take for instance the situation that he helped the dude out of the hole (much allegory there) and he was chastised for "working" on the sabbath. Nonsense.

He was for personal defense when necessary-finish it but don't start it.

The fanatics really did a number on the religion- the whole "I've got it figured out! Follow me" bunch. Too many times in history to count.

The latest style of "pay your way to heaven" really gets my hackles up. The "God-plex" churches....Give me a break.

One of the most insidious things now is the rapture garbage. The "I'm outa here" bunch. This has led to apathy on a mental and physical level. "Why should I care, HE'S about to be here".

You REALLY think your part of the 144,000 huh? hmm. Pride before the fall.

This is, really, part and parcel of humanities different levels of evolution. Even in some pagan groups, the effects of inflated egos and personality worship flourish.

I've got my warts to. (no witch jokes please:lol I'm not perfect BUT i do know my faults and try to fix them. Sometimes i do a good job, sometimes not.

The church just wasn't my thing. I submit to no one. I serve my maker and do my best to take care of my brothers and sisters (i dint ask religious affiliation first). One I DEFINITELY have no use for.

I wont go into that.

You want the Christians to "get it together" (or anyone else for that matter)? First they have to figure out what "IT" is.

The IT was Love, Wisdom, and Power. The three are not literal and yet they are. Meditate on that.

Konx Om Pax

You know all religion derives from pagan astrological symbolism right? so all your gods might as well be peter pan or darth vader. But reading and learning is overrated right? Oh wait, i guess if your only exsposed to certain books you might not have a very broad understanding of things, my bad. So i guess argue on for all eternity, go ahead.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty

Satan has been busy this last generation - you'll be hard pressed to find morals or ethics in today's world. He has worked through, and used, society to push his agenda as well. I thank God that He brought me in this world back when we actually said the Pledge of Allegiance first thing upon arriving at school, as well as the Lord's Prayer before we ate lunch, every single day.

Because I see now, looking at society and the people's mentality today, and I see how very easy it would've been for me to have fallen into the same "trap" that I see soooo many people today having fell into.

By 'trap" I mean the mentality that it's acceptable to question if there's a God, and to question why gay people can't marry, to question why stealing is wrong, or murder or other sins running rampant on the planet.

I just missed this generation - and I am extremely blessed to have missed it. Had I not, my eternal fate could be a whole lot different.

I agree with much of what you have stated above, but I am somewhat confused as to the "Gay Marriage" commentary. Are you stating that it's not correct to stand up for a Biblical view of Heterosexual Marriage, or that it is? I simply do not wish to misconstrue your words, but I am also not attempting to nitpick and perpetuate a somewhat tangent argument which takes away from your overall point.


As for the OP, and Christianity in general, I witness a wide ranging variety of Christians on a daily basis, which is a very similar factor amongst Jews and Muslims as well. WE ALL VARY. We all vary in our interpretations, and our fundamental beliefs which become exhibited throughout our faith and worship. Much of what and who we are, and much of what determines our Religious differences, all occurs due to the differing life events which we experience growing up, and which throughout our existence is constantly being reshaped and reformed.

I for one believe that every Monotheistic religion on Earth serves a dutiful purpose, as I believe that each and every one of our Prophets has served to spread the word of God to people which the previous Prophet/Messiah had not been able to reach (i.e., Jesus expanded the basis of Moses' teachings of God, on to over 1 Billion People, then Mohammad was able to extend the Message of God on to another additional 1 Billion inhabitants of Earth). Therefore, I do believe that each of these religions is attempting to attain the same goals of bettering individuals, and laying out a path before us towards Heaven, but we are simply going about such aspects through differing routes.

However, I will state flat out that I was surprised when a supposedly Christian neighbor of mine turned out to be the most Restricted child on the block, wherein his parents forbid him from Practicing Halloween, and even watching G.I. Joe, YET, he turned out to be the most violent kid on the block (Most likely as a result of such). He also came back to the neighborhood after a while as well, and began telling me about how Jews and Muslims were nice people, but they were all going to Hell because they did not believe that Jesus was God. I obviously completely disagreed with his view on the point of judging the other Judeo-Middle Eastern Religions in that manner, but as a fellow Christian I also disagreed with his view of Jesus. I was always taught that Jesus was the SON of God, and an Extension of God, but NOT that he was in fact God himself. At least that is what I took away from Church as a kid, but regardless, it did differ from his beliefs quite a bit.

On the other hand, I have Muslim friends who vary in their doctrines quite a bit amongst eachother, with some far stricter in their adherence than others. For the most part however, even when they travel back overseas to their home nations (Such as India, Pakistan, etc.), they are often shocked at what they witness over there. Their Americanized Islamic adherence, although seemingly strict in its nature, is FAR more tolerant than what their counterparts take part in overseas. It actually offends my friends and acquaintances when they witness Terrorists killing people in the "Name of God", and as Muslims, they feel betrayed by these despicable actions.

I will also note the amazing realization I have come across, in that the one time when Muslims, Jews, and Christians truly come together and unify beyond all else, is when they are facing down the likes of Atheists. It is often seen as one thing to follow and adhere to another Prophet/Messiah, and to preach somewhat different doctrines, but it is another issue entirely when someone is encountered who completely lacks any Faith and/or Religion whatsoever. So if Atheists wish to be so, then my advice to you is to keep it to yourselves, because each and everytime you push your views forward, you strengthen the Judeo-Christian/Islamic Unified Resistance. (Hey, maybe your actions WILL bring about World Peace after all).

To focus on the issue presented by the OP:

There are people who are doing exactly as you requested. I can think of two great ministries: People to People with Bob George at www.realanswers.net and the Bible Answer Man Ministries at www.equip.org. Both of these ministries focus on what is true and good about Christianity, and avoid the false teachings. Both are trying to straighten out the mess. Help them out by contributing.

Also, evangelism is a calling... one might say one of the gifts from God. Some are called to this, some are not. Generally, the calling to Christians by Jesus is "Occupy til I come." His apostles met and decided that the only things the non-Jew converts need to do is: "That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well." Acts 15:29 That's it. I would bet most are doing that.

I've found that most problems have to do with money. Christian churches that preach tithing are corrupt. Not even Jews pay tithing, and they invented it. When I'm in a church and they start either preaching tithing or building fund, I get the heck out. Last time I checked, Jesus did not want any buildings. One of the reasons the Jewish god survived is the fact that he could not be made into an idol that could be crushed to destroy the faith of his followers. He was easily transported --- in the heart. When the apostles wanted to make a tabernacle to Jesus after the transfiguration, His reply was to ignore it and tell them not to tell anyone about it: "And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead." Matt 17:9
So much for the building fund. Jesus should be part of your daily bread, part of your guiding thoughts, not at a church. People can teach each other in homes. That's how it all started, until it was Romanized.



[edit on 7-6-2009 by Jim Scott]

christians aren't susposed to judge who is the wheat or who is the tares....that's God's duty....

and well, they are to "be in the world not of it" and give unto ceaser what it ceaser's and unto God what is his....and well....they are commanded to be obedient to the worldly rulers. the key word....WORLDLY!! our government is of this world, it's made for the sinners, by the sinners, I think they are to recognize it's authority, do their best to obey it, give to the tax man what the tax man deems is due, but, I don't think they can make something as ungodly as a government into a tool for God! so, well, they know the kingdom that they serve is not of this earth and they are more like ambassadors than citizens of the place. and well, just like they let the dead bury the dead, they let the sinners rule the sinners....and just don't try to cause too many waves. no ambassador would go into another country and try to dictate to that country how it should run it's affairs, or at least they shouldn't. neither should the christians.

maybe this is why the real christians are kind of just sitting back, living their lives, and well, trying to quietly change things one person at a time instead of declaring war on all the sheep that are in wolves clothing?

Originally posted by dawnstar
christians aren't susposed to judge who is the wheat or who is the tares....that's God's duty....

Aren't Christians supposed to discipline and train their children? Aren't you supposed to bring them up 'in God'? I see speaking out against those who pervert your faith more in that light than I do the classical 'don't judge others'.

maybe this is why the real christians are kind of just sitting back, living their lives, and well, trying to quietly change things one person at a time instead of declaring war on all the sheep that are in wolves clothing?

This is probably true in a lot of cases. My request, though, is that the people that you quietly change one person at a time ARE the wolves in sheeps clothing. Seems like you can a much bigger bang for your conversion buck that way. Not to mention that it is the compassionate thing to do to protect your fellow sheep and potential new members of your flock.

As I read back through the thread, I saw that there was a discussion of New Age/Pagan/Satanists.

Reading it, I think it provides a near perfect example of what I want to see from Christians.

The assumption that Pagan=Satanist is very prevalent in the real world and especially among American Christians. It seems that everytime someone voices/posts that assumption, thoug, they are quickly challenged/educated/corrected that the two beliefs have nothing to do with each other. Heck, I don't subscribe to either faith and I correct people when I hear it.

Why don't I hear Christians do the same thing when somebody makes Christians=Fundamentalists? Why don't you even stand up for yourselves that much? I mean, Pagans have orders of magnitude less power to influence communities than Christians, but they have the courage to stand up and defend themselves.

So, back to the OP. Why is it the responsibility of a few to "guide" the many? THAT's just what THEY try to do -- corral thoughts, herd ideas, always crafted to be acceptible to the local culture.

Argentus, misinterpreting my OP a bit. My premise is that Fundies are not Christians and that Christians have a responsibility to defend the weak, Christian or not, against the Fundies for the simple fact that Fundies claim to be Christian. I agree that Christianity can be worshiped in thousands of ways. Where do you draw the line though? To me, if a group claims to be Christian, but its teachings and practices are the opposite of Christ's, (dare I say it, Anti-Christ-ian.) how do you allow them to stay under your Christian umbrella? Ethically, morally or spiritually.

What if I were to make a thread like this...?

Premise:
1. Muslim extremists pervert the values of Mohammed.
2. The larger Islamic community bear a measure of responsibility for the suffering the extremists cause.

Mostlyspoons, exactly. Any religion is responsible for anyone using their name in ways which are harmful. The Jew thing is reaching a bit. If you would have said Judaism (a religion) rather than Jews (a race), then it would apply as well. Name your religion, my premise applies to them all.

Jim Scott, thanks for posting those two sites. Neither of them actually are doing. In fact, on the equiop.org site, i performed a search on 'fundamentalist' and pulled up an article which actually was defending fundamentalists as Christians.

When you give total obeisance to the PTB, you not much better than chattle.

This is totally contradictory to what JC preached.

Felonius, thank you.

JC wasn't a lightweight. He spoke, he disagreed, he definitely didn't have the 'live and let live' attitude towards those who misrepresented his Dad. Not sure why his sheep think that they should behave differently.