Why Not Tax Religions?

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posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by jd140
 


I said that to annoy you, i edited it quickly because i realised it was the wrong thing to do. I apologise for that comment, my post was edited very quickly with my real belief.




posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by jd140
Discrimination takes many forms.


But it's not true now is it, i'm not bashing religion, believe what you like on your little defensive perch but it's not what i'm doing. I'm pointing out a large problem, a ridiculous circumstance that says religion is special. Charities are set up with specific purposes, religion has some very selfish goals.

Please address how starving people are left to starve if they don't take a sermon. That to me is why religion shouldn't have tax exempt status, becuase their motives are far from noble and not clearly set out. They are amoney making regime.

That is not religion bashing because if they made it completely non profit and didn't have the finest of everything. didn't force people to listent o sermons to receive aid, then i would happily suppor ttheir tax exempt status.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 03:06 PM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


I wasn't responding to you. It was to someone else.

I think after reading your latest responses, it's time to leave this thread. You are pointing out one group from dozens of tax-exempt groups under US tax law and asking why they would be exempt simply because you don't like them.

Personally, I don't find coin collectors appealing. I believe all coin collecting organizations should lose their exempt status because of my personal bias. Doesn't that sound silly? Honestly?

Lose your bias.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by WickettheRabbit

Personally, I don't find coin collectors appealing. I believe all coin collecting organizations should lose their exempt status because of my personal bias. Doesn't that sound silly? Honestly?

Lose your bias.


Coin colectors do not try and force religion onto people in exchange for food. If they did then yes they should lose their tax exempt status. You see i'm perfectly equal in this. If a coin collectors society said that they only accept followers of Islam then yes they should lose tax exempt status.


Oh and you know what? Maybe the entire system needs an overhaul. Charities i can accept if they contribute a certain percentage to charity every year and don't push any religious beliefs. I may even argue they shoudn't push political beliefs.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by jd140
 


Charities are often set up to comment on politics. Pro life and pro choice organisations are common place. Religion has other interests at it's heart. There is the differece. It is not religion bashing but i'm sure you wish to point to it as that. It is simple logic. Religion is set up to change peoples religious beliefs, the ones that are supposed to be separate from church and state. Charities commenting on religion are set up to do that and not change peoples religious beliefs. If they are trying to change religious beliefs then they should not get tax exempt status.

Church and state should be separate, so why allow tax exempt status.

You have yet to come up with a good reason they should have tax exempt status, please take a proper shot at it. This is not bashing religion, you can believe whatever you like.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]


Taxes are paid to the state and federal government. So by them not paying taxes they are going with the seperation of church and state.

You don't want to drive on a road paid with church money now would you?

I haven't spoken about pro life and choice organizations. Even though they too are tax exempt and should stay nuetral. I posted about the NAACP and how they force their politics on their people.

You can dodge that if you want. I don't care.

I see your point though. As long as a non profit is not religous then they don't have to pay taxes.

That is one of many forms of discrimination.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


Can you please post a link backing your claim that church ran soup kitchens will only feed you if you are a christian?

Atleast point me in the right direction, I have tried finding it myself and am having problems finding anything backing your claim.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 03:16 PM
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just suck up anything that may live outside of the government into this mess why dont u... u better hope they dont.. religion.... no use in xplaining. nvm.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by jd140

I see your point though. As long as a non profit is not religous then they don't have to pay taxes.

That is one of many forms of discrimination.


Religion is upposed to be separate from church and state. By offering a church tax exempt status you are offering them special status by the state to spread their religious beliefs. Therefore it is no longer separate and all religions are entwined with the state.

It is not descrimination, simply following the rules. Again i also point out how religions often comment on politics, very often. So hey that's fine, i'm just descriminating and they never comment on politics really, they just mention things. That's fine they can mention things and keep their status. That doesn't count after all, mentioning stuff.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 03:21 PM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


I refer you to the first part of my post.

If you are a firm believer in seperation of church and state then why should a church pay taxes that will be used to help with state road construction, state workers, federal workers and all the other uses taxes are for.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by jd140
Can you please post a link backing your claim that church ran soup kitchens will only feed you if you are a christian?


I read several churches in Africa were doing this, i am now searching aroud to find the article as it was 3 years old but i will try my hardest to find it.


Originally posted by jd140
Atleast point me in the right direction, I have tried finding it myself and am having problems finding anything backing your claim.


Yes it was a short story 3 years ago, but i am trying. I could also give you an interestng personal story but you woudln't accept it and it wouldn't be evidence.


*sighs* google has failed me, so i can't provide proof. I rarely do that but i cannot find the story.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by jd140
I refer you to the first part of my post.

If you are a firm believer in seperation of church and state then why should a church pay taxes that will be used to help with state road construction, state workers, federal workers and all the other uses taxes are for.



The money is spread between all peoples and therefore it doesn't matter. Every religion, kind and creed would benefit. Tax money is not part of the state. State refers to direct contributions for political aims in this regard.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by jd140
I refer you to the first part of my post.

If you are a firm believer in seperation of church and state then why should a church pay taxes that will be used to help with state road construction, state workers, federal workers and all the other uses taxes are for.



The money is spread between all peoples and therefore it doesn't matter. Every religion, kind and creed would benefit. Tax money is not part of the state. State refers to direct contributions for political aims in this regard.


So seperation of church and state doesn't apply when the church is paying money into the state, but it applies to everything else? Now you are starting to be hypocritical.

I didn't figure you would find proof of church ran soup kitchens not feeding non believers. I take it you will edit all the post you stated that claim in to reflect that you in fact cannot prove the claim?



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by jd140
So seperation of church and state doesn't apply when the church is paying money into the state, but it applies to everything else? Now you are starting to be hypocritical.


Not at all hypocritical. The church giving money through taxes does not cause them to have any leverage with the state because it is spread throughout all people regardless of religion.


Originally posted by jd140
I didn't figure you would find proof of church ran soup kitchens not feeding non believers. I take it you will edit all the post you stated that claim in to reflect that you in fact cannot prove the claim?


I began editing my post before you quoted it. But hey you try and spin that how you like. I won't edit the post you quoted here no because i stand by what i said. I already said i did it simply to annoy you and it seems to have worked. I regret trying to annoy you thought it's not how i usually do things. I will not edit a post after you have replied, i hope the time stamp recognises when i started editing rather than the time i posted.

I cannot find proof because the story is 3 years old and i forgot where i found it. It was a church in africa offering sermons for food. If you didn't listen you didn't get food. I have tried every search on google i can think of to find it but to no avail.

But hey my personal story won't sount so i can't mention that one can i


Let us however get back to the important point. There is no logical reason the church should be tax exempt. The church is a business, with holdings, large holdings. Why should they avoid paying taxes on it all? They operate in their own interests, not the interests of their followers.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


So do all other non profits.

They all act on their best interests. You don't like them being tax exempt because they are a religious non profit.

I can't put it any better then that. So this will be my last post on the matter.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by jd140
So do all other non profits.

They all act on their best interests. You don't like them being tax exempt because they are a religious non profit.


They are not non profit that is my issue. They abuse their funds, they do all sorts of financial acrobatics and they do, very often push political opinions when the church is supposed to be seperate from state. If you don't want to admit that then fine, but it is true. The simple pro life and pro choice debate is interesting enough, about how senators have been leaned upon by religious leaders.

The religious leaders in fact can do it by proxy. They lean on followers, the followers lean on congress and well then you have no seperation of church and state. How about Ted Haggard claiming he talked to George Bush on regular occasions? That is pretty political don't you think?


Originally posted by zerbot565

I can't put it any better then that. So this will be my last post on the matter.


Aww don't go now i was enjoying it.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 04:31 PM
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I read the whole post and I am surprised no one brought this up.

Church's have tax exempt status because they call the shots.

Religion has more influence on people than governments do and they don't want to pay taxes so they don't.

It's really pretty simple.

And in my opinion it is TOTALLY corrupt.

Vas



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
reply to post by fraterormus
 


Your USA law is interesting, i wonder why then more people haven't undergone this little change to avoid taxes? Maybe because they would be refused? I'm not sure, please give a good reason why they haven't. My original point however still stands. Why are religions tax exempt?


Besides the two reasons I mentioned in my initial (first) post...here is another very good reason...

Almost all US law is based on Tort (just like in the UK where we borrowed the idea from), that being the upholding or violation of a law is based on the monetary value or damages. Crimes are determined by whether monetarily assessable damage to either property or person has been committed (did the victim have medical costs due to the incident, or did something have to be repaired?). It is not a crime to offend someone with harsh words or criticism, however if the victim can prove monetary damages, then it becomes Slander or Harassment. The same with the enacting of Laws. Laws are made to protect property or person from monetarily assessable damage or harm.

Taxation is no different in the US.

The US government taxes goods and services that have an assessable monetary value. I work for an employer, so I provide that employer a service that is worth $X dollars. Therefore, I can be taxed on a percentage of that value. Likewise, my employer sells the product which I have made for him for $X dollars, so he therefore can be taxed on a percentage of the value of that product. I own a house that is assessed at $X value, therefore I can be taxed on a percentage of that assessed value.

How can you assign a monetary value to spirituality?

What is the going rate of religious belief? It's not listed as a commodity on NASDAQ. Is there an open market where this service is valued in comparison with other beliefs? What is it's resell value? At what rate does it depreciate in monetary value? It is not something physical, and therefore something that Tort applies to.

This is what we call an "intangible" service.

We are not taxed, in the US at any rate, every time money exchanges hands, contrary to popular belief. Instead, we are taxed by reason that there is an assessable monetary value of the goods or services that we are providing/purchasing. When something has no monetary value, then the exchanging of currency is considered a donation as it has no value. It is therefore Tax Exempt.

Sure, you could make "intangible" things like spirituality be taxable, even though they have no real market value, but you would be treading in dangerous waters by doing so. What other intangible things do you tax? Do you tax Sex between lovers? Do you tax Thoughts when someone reads a book or watches a movie or partakes in a forum? Do you tax children that use their Imagination to play make-believe store? Ridiculous, don't you think? Why would taxing Religion be any different?

(Actually, the US Congress is debating on this issue right now in concerns with Virtual Property in MMORPGs like World of Warcraft, Online Video Games, and Virtual Worlds like Second-Life, and whether it should be taxable or not...and they are having to discuss the same issue of intangibility and no real market value.)

Sure, people are upset when Religions try to use Tax Exempt Status as a Tax Shelter. I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be. However, there are already regulations in place to prevent this, and in the U.S. at least the penalties are a stiff maximum of $250,000 per item through the IRS alone, plus possible criminal prosecution from the Justice Department. Just because Religious Organizations are Tax Exempt from basic Revenue sources through donations and sometimes even Property Tax, doesn't mean that they are exempt from Taxes entirely nor are they exempt from Tax Fraud.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 09:53 PM
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you probably just gave Soetoro a new idea>I'll bet he only taxes the Christians!



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 08:14 AM
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In Germany, there are taxes on religion. It´s called "Kirchen Steuer" in english "Church Tax". A monthly church tax is automatically deducted from your pay, and this money is then sent to the treasury of your designated religion, be it Jewish, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Islam and so on. You can elect not to pay this tax if you formally declare yourself an atheist. You are also automatically freed from this tax burdon if you are poor or disabled.

[edit on 5-6-2009 by fockewulf190]



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 08:16 AM
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I cannot believe this debate is about what to tax next.... How about NO new taxes!!! learn to only spend the money coming in. Quit adding taxes!

I don't think The govt. (any govt.) should be allowed to add or increase an existing tax without a voter approval. It is our money not theirs.






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