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Consciousness has to be seperate from the material

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posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 07:27 PM
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I kinda feel that the only energy in the universe is consciousnes. Everything else i a deviation off that energy.




posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Yep, when we start talking like that, we can use terms such as "Spirit" or "Energy". I have found ultimately, that Energy is simply a constant change in state of any continuum, yet the rub is that the continuum is an echo of higher level vibrations or "smaller things".

One of the first things you are taught in the hermetic schools is the law of vibration. In that everything we know, we know through the medium of vibration. And because our objective world is defined by that which we know or can sense, the entirety of what we call the Universe is vibrating.

I believe this is in line with that of which you speak.


It would be prudent to ignore the energetic relationships between matter and consciousness as sound, vibration is all energy and this further breaks down the physical model into less physical bits.


Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Yep, I'd have to agree that it is indeed "Turtles all the way down!"

However, I'd go so far as to say that conscious doesn't mean aware in the general sense, as it does when we refer to human consciousness. Human consciousness appears to have that quality you speak of as "Self aware sentience".

Although I believe this evolution has been naturally selected as each of the varied parts of our body clamor in a pandemonium of what they require through the communication protocols established at their level. They each communicate with the egoic forces via mental symbols. The mass result of this is the illusion of self.

The sentience is a different aspect of consciousness, however the final result in any emerging conscious pattern is the self-realization of being real that becomes self-evident. The intelligence and understanding may not exist and it may just be a dim mummer, but to be conscious is to be self-realized and aware of ones self.


Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Again I have to completely agree here. Every aspect on the continuum of life and non-life can be referred to as consciousness... not necessarily conscious the way we refer to our own, but consciousness.


Just more emerging organized patterns of consciousness.


Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Again... agreed to a point. You sound a bit more convinced than I about whether we continue a conscious awareness or not akin to the one we have in this body.


From my first-person perspective, I remember existing before this lifetime, and have a continuum that I know I come from based on some of these memories.

In this life, I have had my share of out-of-body experiences, lucid dreaming, precognitive dreaming, lucid precognitive dreaming suffice to say that I know I exist as a consciousness outside the normal parameters of my physical body, however when I am in my physical body, I adopt a more permanent focus and chronological awareness of myself as an individual observing itself as a part of reality.

The fundamental components of my existence is the very nature of consciousness of which we are discussing, fundamentally it is the same for me as it is for everyone else but just a little different.

The differences could be as subtle as mere belief vs experience.

Food for thought anyways.



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 05:30 PM
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reply to post by platosallegory
 


You make some very good points about consciousness.

I think the Cemi Field Theory explains this well. It says consciousness is located in the brain's Electromagnetic field. So it's non-local.

The thing is every theory that's not tied to materialism is rejected. This is because they want matter to be the driving force of the universe but all evidence shows that matter responds to consciousness.

We also have to question if matter is even real and not a phantasm which is a mental representation of a real object. This is in line with Plato's allegory of the cave.



posted on Jun, 8 2009 @ 07:12 PM
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Well in Philosophy:
Materialism is the view that only material entities exist (everything can be explainable in material terms) It is monism. Their view of human nature is the identity theory which is the view that minds are identical to brains. It includes that 1) it is an empirical claim for example Pain is identical to brain state (neurons) Pain and neurons are seen as referring to the same thing. 2) “identity” a) strict identity example is Mr. Couch’s book is identical to the Professor’s book. This is true since Mr. Couch is the Professor (X is identical to Y) b) qualitative identity example is Jennifer’s book is identical to Mr. Couch’s book. Not same exact book but same type of book (X is the same as Y)
Yet one can argue;
A problem with materialism is the one of the property of thoughts is that they belong to subjects and are private, while something like a book on the table is public and not private. Ony you have direct access to your thoughts, but meanwhile someone like a brain surgeon can observe others’ brain states. Pains are hurtful and unpleasant, while brain states and neurons are pink and made of cells. So 1) if mental states are identical to brain states than they have the same properties 2) Mental states and brain states have different properties thus, 3) Mental states and brain states are not identical (making materialism false)

I personally do not agree with materialism and am a believer in dualism which is the view that a person consists of distinct mental and bodily substances. Physical properties (body): made of material parts, weight, shape, spatial, colored, observable, etc. Mental properties (mind): immaterial, no weight, no shape, private, not colored, etc. A deductive argument in philosophy by Descartes that proves dualism is the Concievability argument which states; 1) A property is essential to X if it is inconceivable that X exist without it - we know this through the definition of essence 2) I can conceive of myself existing without my body - we know this is true through the Cogito and Introspection thus, 3) My body is not essential to me - follows 1 and 2 4) I cannot conceive of myself existing without my mind - we know this also from the Cogito and Introspection thus, 5) My mind is essential to me - follows 1 and 4 thus, 6) My mind and body are really distinct - follows 3 and 5

For those who don't know The Cogito is 1) I doubt that I exist 2) But this requires thinking 3) Thinking requires something existing 4) So, I can not coherently doubt that I exist. This is from Descartes and "I think, therefore I am." Introspection is acquiring knowledge of the mind by turning the mind inward. It is a rational faculty, where the mind examines itself.



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