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Consciousness has to be seperate from the material

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posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 10:50 PM
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Science is corrupted when it comes to this point. They ASSUME that everything in the universe is based on matter and energy and they try to exclude as fringe any theories or ideas that challenge that assumption.

They build there theories based on materialism even when the theories tell them that matter and energy is not all that exists. We can look at things like Digital physics, the holographic principle, quantum fluctuations and virtual particles.

What these things tell us is that there's an immaterial aspect to reality but the personal beliefs of some want to base everthing in materialism.

What they tell us is that we are a miracle of nature. Everything just fell into the right place and Viola we are here.

Matter and energy can't explain consciousness. Materialist will have you believe that consciousess is a by product of matter.

It's self evident that consciousness is something other than matter and energy. Materialist tell us that matter and energy can't direct itself to a specific location. Consciousness can direct matter to a specific location and energy just powers the system.

It's impossible for consciousness to be a product of matter. Materialist tells us that matter and energy is not directed to a specific outcome or direction. This means that consciousness has to be inherent in matter or immaterial to matter. Consciousness directs matter to specific locations and outcomes.




posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 11:13 PM
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reply to post by platosallegory
 


I like your concept, though I find one fault with it personally.

"Consciousness directs matter to specific locations and outcomes"

While I don't disagree, I would say consciousness can just as easily be replaced with energy to achieve the same outcome. What this means to me is that matter is superfluous. Energy is all there really is. And consciousness is energy.

Perhaps a form we don't understand. But to me, that is vitally what it is.

And as such it does give rise to all sort of questions. Most especially since energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It is only either kinetic or potential. At least as I understand, so therefore I can stand to be corrected



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 11:15 PM
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Having astral travelled and had an NDE, I agree that matter and consciousness are separate.

But I don't see how this can be made relevant to science yet. Can you?
Do you see any way the separateness of consciousness could be scientifically proven?



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 12:05 AM
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Remote viewing experiments would prove it, and have done so.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 12:11 AM
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Something I tend to repeat very often on ATS is that there is not one single shred of scientific evidence that consciousness exists. The only evidence is individual and internal. The only objective evidence is anecdotal, in the form of personal testimony. From a materialist perspective, that another individual is living a conscious life, is pure faith.

All that has been measured is a cause-effect relationship. Even asking the question are you conscious and getting the response yes is not evidence. A "dead" machine could answer that as well and probably any other question satisfactorily when A.I. is advanced enough. Sometimes I wonder if one may answer no.

Since it is not exactly well-defined what consciouness truely is in any objective way, we are forced to rely on our intuition, that "thing" that seems irreducibly present within us no matter what form it takes, no matter how it has been altered by something external such as brain damage or something internal such as meditation.

Personally, I believe that there is not truely such a thing as being unconscious, that the line between conscious and not conscious is not a line at all, but a continuum, much like the line between living things and non-living things.

I started a thread where I wished to take a different approach, free of neologistic language, excessive arcane symbolism and religious overtones, one of thought experiments rather than arguments. Though how I opened it may appear simplistic, it presents a great effort to explain knowledge that I possess that eludes verbal understanding while remaining within the constraints set forth. The purpose being to extend a common basis set, the one that we use to even acknowledge that another individual possesses the trait of conscious experience.

It didn't really take off and I don't readily know where next to go with it anyway. Since it could interest you, I will shamelessly self-promote.


Musing in life, death and consciouness

(yeah, I misspelled "consciousness" in the thread title and neglected to fix)


[edit on 6/4/2009 by EnlightenUp]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 12:33 AM
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Buddha, who millions of people still talk about 2500 years after his death
said that consciousness permeates the universe and is luminosity and
emptiness. First there was the infinity of unborn consciousness.
Matter being gross or frozen consciousness-lower vibratory rates etc.

I know MIT graduate scientists who love Buddha's cosmology and
have become Buddhist's-which is amazing since he was saying these
ideas 2500 years ago.

You can read about the physics of consciousness
in the recent book the Quantum and the Lotus by mathieu ricard-
A scientist himself and son of a Nobel Prize winner in Physics.
you can read a few chapters at amazon.com

It makes me laugh when i see narrow minded people put down religion when these enlightened beings ideas on reality hold up after 2500 years and these narrow minded people have absolutely no influence on anybody-have zero accomplishments and cannot even influence the world enough to be able to live beyond the confines of their mother's basement.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 12:54 AM
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reply to post by EnlightenUp
 


I think part of the problem with trying to prove consciousness is in a rather narrow definition. Consciousness seems often seen as awareness.

I think therefore I am

But then awareness isn't quite so easily defined either, too often being correlated to communication, or, more specifically, translatable communication.

To me simply breaking the idea down to a simple concept is all that's really required. Consciousness is movement. Which is why I said consciousness is energy, as energy is conscious. It has purpose. That it's "aware" of it's purpose is secondary, part of conceivable human experience and an unfit marker in my opinion.

I'd also like to address the idea of illusions, as there is the concept that consciousness and reality itself are illusions, and therefore not "real".

I once heard of a man who hallucinated a 400 pound gorilla was bursting through his wall. Was the gorilla real? To the man, absolutely as his reaction demonstrated as he screamed and attempted to claw through the wall to get away. To anyone else who couldn't see it, no.

But it's still real.

The illusion or hallucination to me is that reality operates from a single point of view. To me this is actually a good argument for the existence of consciousness, that we can mold reality to individual experiences.

Evidence? Not likely. Not unless we transcend consciousness.

It is literally the ghost in the machine.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 12:59 AM
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Originally posted by Electricneo
Buddha, who millions of people still talk about 2500 years after his death
It makes me laugh when i see narrow minded people put down religion when these enlightened beings ideas on reality hold up after 2500 years and these narrow minded people have absolutely no influence on anybody-have zero accomplishments and cannot even influence the world enough to be able to live beyond the confines of their mother's basement.


Odd, I never really studied Buddhism, but almost from the beginning of reading the selection, it looks like I am recreating it on my own and have been for some time, particularly the mention of "thought experiments" that cannot be carried out objectively. In essential ways, it's looking like I was just born with it. I wonder what that means.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 12:59 AM
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reply to post by platosallegory
 


I dunno...

In my experience consciousness IS a byproduct of the matter which makes up my body. Lots of it has to do with genetic manifestations.

My consciousness is very similar and acts very similar to that of not only my immediate family, but also family I have never known before.

As I've said before, God is only as real as Self is... and Ultimately, I believe they are both emergent phenomena with their roots in our genes.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 01:23 AM
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reply to post by EnlightenUp
 


Thought experiments are just concepts.
Concepts can't take you to higher levels of consciousness experience
such as enlightenment or one that you may have actually experienced
an orgasm. Concepts like universe do not paint the actual universe.

Consciousness is way beyond just being concepts.
Try contemplating consciousness more in terms of vibratory resonance.
All is energy with matter vibrating at a slower resonance.

Consciousness/reality being music and all movement the dance of life.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 01:28 AM
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Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
reply to post by EnlightenUp
 


I think part of the problem with trying to prove consciousness is in a rather narrow definition. Consciousness seems often seen as awareness.

I think therefore I am

But then awareness isn't quite so easily defined either, too often being correlated to communication, or, more specifically, translatable communication.


Those modes of thought are those that seem to "not quite get it".


To me simply breaking the idea down to a simple concept is all that's really required. Consciousness is movement. Which is why I said consciousness is energy, as energy is conscious. It has purpose. That it's "aware" of it's purpose is secondary, part of conceivable human experience and an unfit marker in my opinion.

I'd also like to address the idea of illusions, as there is the concept that consciousness and reality itself are illusions, and therefore not "real".


What I speak of is the "real" thing in back of it all. I "see" it all the time, something irreducable that has nothing to do with the usual sensual, emotive and selfish attributes. It just "is". Going too absurdly far into the all is illusion trap will lead nowhere. Let us then state that illusion is an illusion. What provides a basis for an illusion?

What is the purpose of the purpose?

The consciousness is x path robs it of other possibilities.

Have you imagined or experienced realms that have no time or space but have dimensions consisting of other attributes? Perhaps imagine a 2-dimensional realm consisting of one dimension of love-hate and another of hot-cold.


I once heard of a man who hallucinated a 400 pound gorilla was bursting through his wall. Was the gorilla real? To the man, absolutely as his reaction demonstrated as he screamed and attempted to claw through the wall to get away. To anyone else who couldn't see it, no.

But it's still real.


It may be, but that is a different sort of real. The "real" gorilla would be the one experiencing itself intending to burst through the wall. Then again, perhaps the hallicination experienced itself from it's own point of view.


The illusion or hallucination to me is that reality operates from a single point of view. To me this is actually a good argument for the existence of consciousness, that we can mold reality to individual experiences.

Evidence? Not likely. Not unless we transcend consciousness.

It is literally the ghost in the machine.


Possibly, in order to view it objectively, it must be transcended and at such a point, can it be observed in any way whatsoever?



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 01:35 AM
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Originally posted by Electricneo
reply to post by EnlightenUp
 

Try contemplating consciousness more in terms of vibratory resonance.
All is energy with matter vibrating at a slower resonance.

Consciousness/reality being music and all movement the dance of life.


I have, and in many other ways, back to the point where it seems to vanish into "thin air", leaving something or another that is persistent. I don't know what to call it at that point. It seems 0-dimensional and everywhere at the "same time".



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 01:42 AM
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reply to post by EnlightenUp
 


True, because consciousness is unlimited-
(enlightened pure consciousness that is)

It exists, does not exist, both and neither-simultaneously-unlimited.

Ordinary human consciousness often is a form of mental poverty.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 02:04 AM
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Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Let us then state that illusion is an illusion. What provides a basis for an illusion?


Consciousness

Seems like a conundrum, but I believe there's a reason for that, that I hope I can illustrate with my level of understanding.


Originally posted by EnlightenUp
What is the purpose of the purpose?


To be.


Originally posted by EnlightenUp
The consciousness is x path robs it of other possibilities.


You're right. To say it more appropriately would be to say: Consciousness is like energy, energy is like consciousness. It's the closest model of understanding I've come to.


Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Have you imagined or experienced realms that have no time or space but have dimensions consisting of other attributes?


Yes, in my own understanding.


Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Then again, perhaps the hallicination experienced itself from it's own point of view.


Which we can't know with even our supposed certainty unless we are the hallucination. In which case we would answer, "Yes."


Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Possibly, in order to view it objectively, it must be transcended and at such a point, can it be observed in any way whatsoever?


Which seems to me to be the purpose of purpose. The reason of reasoning. Existence exists to exist. Consciousness is to be conscious.

In my understanding it is that consciousness is existence itself. That it is the finest point of measurement. It is what all measurements are measured by. It simply is.

I would not however say that consciousness is equally all as it is nothing. Nothing is absolute potential. It is formless and undefinable. Consciousness is all, and so definable only as itself.

Edited to add: I know I went into the X is X idea again. But then I'm speaking of absolute concepts and only from my perspective, so I'm comfortable with it


[edit on 4/6/09 by TravelerintheDark]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 02:26 AM
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Originally posted by Electricneo
reply to post by EnlightenUp
 


True, because consciousness is unlimited-
(enlightened pure consciousness that is)

It exists, does not exist, both and neither-simultaneously-unlimited.


Do you think it's "exist" and "not exist" or "manifest" and "unmanifest"? Perhaps the latter terms are more accurate? Does it matter?


Ordinary human consciousness often is a form of mental poverty.


I have found the human box to be overly confining and claustrophobic and I'm still trying to kick it open for good.

[edit on 6/4/2009 by EnlightenUp]

[edit on 6/4/2009 by EnlightenUp]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 02:55 AM
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Hey Everyone,

I've been thinking an awful lot about consciousness lately.

Reality is defined by it, as in... without consciousness, there is no reality.

Consciousness is subjective. Right now, you are conscious of your own personality, your person and your submersion into self-realized reality.

What is making reality, real for you right now is your consciousness. When your consciousness shifts focus, the nature of your reality will shift focus.

For example, one such recorded and well documented shift from one reality focus state to another is called dreaming.

Dreaming is an attribute of consciousness, and it is important though often scorn and thrown aside as some insignificant aspect of the overall conscious self that you are.

Every dream, is a virtual reality simulation created by what? Consciousness.

I can descend further into the realms of consciousness, for example going out-of-body and having an out-of-body experience is again part of being conscious in a state when the body is asleep.

This is just as it appears, when you are conscious, you are aware of reality. Depending on where your focus is, within your consciousness will determine the reality focus.

Focus right now means physical matter reality is the current observational focus. What right now can you see that shares a commonality with all other conscious sentient beings, human, animal, alien, ghost, insert fave species here.

The one commonality we all share, Universally I might add... is consciousness.

For every subjective observer, all consciousness is... is reality and how they perceive it.

The experience and pattern of being conscious is relative to each subjective observer of consciousness, however the overall nature of it is the same for all consciousness.

Anyways, that's the deep thoughts from this subordinate dreamer to others much like myself in the universal nature of consciousness.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by YouAreDreaming
 


Thanks for the post Amigo...

I go so far as to say that all of consciousness is an illusion.

It's an emergent phenomena with it's roots in our genes...

Well.. let me take that back a moment. Conscious Awareness as we experience it is formed by our genes....

Consciousness in the Abstract is what everything is made of, but it's not as mystical as one might think... it is just that anything which can interact with anything else and can be effected by anything else is technically consciousness.... although it may not be Conscious Awareness... If you catch my drift



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by HunkaHunka
 


It seems like consciousness is a web of interconnected bits working in unison to create larger and larger patterns of consciousness, or more efficient and organized patterns of consciousness.

I believe we are an accumulation of cellular consciousness that fits this model of each active cell in our mind communicating with the next cell and so forth produce a consciousness wave which is what we become, and the end result is what we think we are as a self-aware sentience.

I don't think consciousness is anthropomorphous unless it takes shape in a human form, however it could also be molecular, cellular and a wave.

Where it gets some what mystical is in anomalous cognition like dreams that come true, out-of-body expeirences, share dreams, reincarnation etc. It is here that we see some aspects of consciousness that sit outside the physical counterpart of which we have here.

The origin of our self may not be the body per say, but rather is a symbiont of the body. Until we are free from the body, it will be hard to realize this other aspect of our total consciousness which is both physical and non-physical.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by Kailassa
Having astral travelled and had an NDE, I agree that matter and consciousness are separate.

But I don't see how this can be made relevant to science yet. Can you?
Do you see any way the separateness of consciousness could be scientifically proven?



This is a good question and this is a self evident truth.

When science shows this they ignore it and say we will find a material explanation one day. So they try to ridicule and marginalize theories and ideas based on Consciouness as a fundamental property of the universe.

This is because they start with the assumption that matter and energy is all that exist.

What they will tell you is we are here talking to each other so it must be the case that matter somehow just became conscious. They just take this as truth without any evidence. This is a belief system not science.

There's no way that matter can become conscious. Materialist tell us that it just happened and we should accept it.

Science tells us that at the base of all matter is virtual particles popping into and out of existence in the vacuum.

Science tells us about black hole entropy. Where information about a system is not found in it's 3 dimensional volume but in the 2 dimensional suface area or boundary the system.

Science tells us about the observer, holographic principle and more.

Science doesn't tell us that it just happened and there's no material explanation for matter just waking up.

How can consciousness evolve over time when science tells us time doesn't exist?

Einstein said the distinction between past, present and future is just a persistent illusion.

So consciousness has to have an eternal existence that we just percieve in time from the perception of our local universe.

Science also tells us that perception is not reality but the materialist want us to think that it just happened.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by YouAreDreaming
reply to post by HunkaHunka
 


It seems like consciousness is a web of interconnected bits working in unison to create larger and larger patterns of consciousness, or more efficient and organized patterns of consciousness.



Yep, when we start talking like that, we can use terms such as "Spirit" or "Energy". I have found ultimately, that Energy is simply a constant change in state of any continuum, yet the rub is that the continuum is an echo of higher level vibrations or "smaller things".

One of the first things you are taught in the hermetic schools is the law of vibration. In that everything we know, we know through the medium of vibration. And because our objective world is defined by that which we know or can sense, the entirety of what we call the Universe is vibrating.

I believe this is in line with that of which you speak.




I believe we are an accumulation of cellular consciousness that fits this model of each active cell in our mind communicating with the next cell and so forth produce a consciousness wave which is what we become, and the end result is what we think we are as a self-aware sentience.



Yep, I'd have to agree that it is indeed "Turtles all the way down!"

However, I'd go so far as to say that conscious doesn't mean aware in the general sense, as it does when we refer to human consciousness. Human consciousness appears to have that quality you speak of as "Self aware sentience".

Although I believe this evolution has been naturally selected as each of the varied parts of our body clamor in a pandemonium of what they require through the communication protocols established at their level. They each communicate with the egoic forces via mental symbols. The mass result of this is the illusion of self.




I don't think consciousness is anthropomorphous unless it takes shape in a human form, however it could also be molecular, cellular and a wave.


Again I have to completely agree here. Every aspect on the continuum of life and non-life can be referred to as consciousness... not necessarily conscious the way we refer to our own, but consciousness.




Where it gets some what mystical is in anomalous cognition like dreams that come true, out-of-body expeirences, share dreams, reincarnation etc. It is here that we see some aspects of consciousness that sit outside the physical counterpart of which we have here.



I agree, there be dragons here.

I have lots of theories on this, as to how the illusion of time plays a factor, or even how the empathic among us are aware of things quicker than others... But I would have to label them mystical, as it is on the edge of convictions and thus a complete speculation.




The origin of our self may not be the body per say, but rather is a symbiont of the body. Until we are free from the body, it will be hard to realize this other aspect of our total consciousness which is both physical and non-physical.




Again... agreed to a point. You sound a bit more convinced than I about whether we continue a conscious awareness or not akin to the one we have in this body.

I don't see a difference between physical and non physical in the objective world.

I really only see that there is an Objective world, which is one we only have an incomplete ability to sense, and the Subjective world which is the confluence of stimuli from the objective world and subjective world.

Once this confluence ceases to exist, I have doubts as to whether conscious awareness would continue, unless there is a more subtle objective body from which the grosser objective body we inhabit springs. Which may be the case.

Many often refer to how Socrates spoke about this in Plato's account titled Phaedo. Socrates believed that through asceticism you could create a third body which continued after death. Although I'd have to note that Phaedo is an account of Socrates last words before being executed via suicide. So maybe his ideas are biased by his imminent demise.

Either way, I think it's worth the effort and research ;-)



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