The Terra Papers - Fact or Fiction

PS - I gave you a flag - but never learned how to give out stars otherwise I'd give you one of those too

Originally posted by Amaterasu
I never said that they read nearly verbatim. That was another poster. *I* said they accord well. In other words, nothing clashes, and though not specific, necessarily, the Tablets paint a picture that the Papers fit into.

I guess I can go out and find all the translations and link them here, if that is your wish. But you will not see the story itself detailed as in the Papers, but will see things that suggest the information in the Papers.

You are equivocating now. Quoting you from earlier in the thread...

Originally posted by Amaterasu
There is nothing but the seemingly crazy things that are explained when taking the Papers into account. There is nothing but the Sumerian Tablets...

Originally posted by Amaterasu
The Tablets are more history, accounting, and reporting, than myth. And they are a far cry from what bits and pieces were translated before.

You have claimed these "Sumerian tablets" somehow corroborate the Terra Papers. Yet when asked to produce these stories, legends, history or what-have-you, you instead offer equivocation. It is becoming apparent that you are just using the term "Sumerian" as a new-age buzzword; you have no idea what you are talking about.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Please quote my ad homs, please. To my knowledge, I never called anyone anything. At worst, I might have said, "In my opinion, ..." Which is not an ad hominem. If I said, "You are a ..." Now THAT is an ad hom.

Quoting you, again...

Originally posted by Amaterasu
What is your investment in this, dear. It seems awfully important for you to debunk by way of obfuscation and ridicule.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
So what's your point and why is this so important to you?

Originally posted by Amaterasu
And, in fact, this whole issue has you dancing to discredit me. I want to know what's so important... Does the thought of the Papers being true scare you THAT much? Or are there other, more...spooky reasons that you are so invested in this? I just can't tell.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Until you explain your vested interest in this - I'm pretty much done addressing your words, which tend to twist and misinterpret.

Why is it so important to you to "disprove" The Terra Papers?

Each of those is an ad hominem attack...

Originally posted by Amaterasu
An ad hominem argument...consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

And more specifically, an appeal-to-motive fallacy...

Appeal to motive is a pattern of argument which consists in challenging a thesis by calling into question the motives of its proposer. It can be considered as a special case of the ad hominem circumstantial argument. As such, this type of argument may be a logical fallacy.

Further...

The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

Which is exactly what you were doing by questioning my motives, insinuating I had a "spooky reason" for discussing this topic and questioning my screen-name.

Do not discuss me; discuss the topic.

Just read the Terra Papers for the first time and they made sense.

And for those people that are asking for proof...Theres alot of things regrading aliens and ufos that you have no proof of. Like say Area 51...No one has proof that the government has aliens or ufos there but people still have no problem believing there are.

Alien Mind

For future reference are you allowed to pretend to cough and under your breath say BS on this forum. Just thought I would ask

I feel this is pure fiction. You could make a movie about all this, a mix of Star Wars, Dune, and others.
I read to page four and it was the same old story with a little different spin to comply with copyright laws......
It's no wonder any of the major religions laugh at this. Insect man, fish man (aka) Aqua man, Bird man. Funny they are all called...."man".
Enough time wasted......see ya

The terra papers are interesting but imo this guy is a complete fraud. I'm one of these people that think they kinda stole a lot of things from star wars and other goofy sci fi and wrote these papers. There is no definitive proof WHATSOEVER that i can find that the papers were around before the 90s or so except for some people who have talked to someone who knew Robert back in the 70s, thats not proof at all to me though considering I know none of you people.

[edit on 6-6-2009 by jouseroni]

[edit on 6-6-2009 by jouseroni]

Originally posted by Amaterasu


As I have said, Star Wars came AFTER the Papers were written, and Joseph Campbell spent a lot of time with the Hopi, and was George Lucas's friend and mentor.

So instead of thinking it is somehow a ripoff, think that Star Wars borrowed from the Hopi stories of an ET giving the history of the Earth.

Ama, This is just not true.
Morningsky claims he wrote the Terra papers and presented them to a college professor as a Thesis in 69.
They were not made public until the 90's. This is the fact of the matter.
There is no record whatsoever of the papers until the 90's. He claims the Thesis was rejected. As if he did present a work as Thesis, it is retained by the institution and placed in the Library for public access. Again this did not happen.
The Papers were made Public in the 90's. You know this yet your are misleading people into believing that they originated before that.

The papers came to the public after Star Wars. How could George Lucas rip them off if they were not made public. Star wars and American Graffitti, both made by Lucas, were part of a Two movie deal made in 1971. Morningskys 69' thesis at Southwest University really made it to Lucas? Come On.
Morningsky himself has said he only brought it out after making his "one Year' promise.

Edit to Add, Lucas said later Star Wars was a rewrite of the Original 1971 script and he basically ripped of Kurosawa' epic The Hidden Fortress.en.wikipedia.org...
This movie was made in 1958.



[edit on 6-6-2009 by atlasastro]

nevermind i shouldnt have posted this.

[edit on 6-6-2009 by jouseroni]

Originally posted by atlasastro
Edit to Add, Lucas said later Star Wars was a rewrite of the Original 1971 script and he basically ripped of Kurosawa' epic The Hidden Fortress.en.wikipedia.org...
This movie was made in 1958.

There is an explanation for this, I'm sure. We'll hear how Kurosawa traveled to the United States, heard the story of Bek'Ti from the Hopi and made the Hidden Fortress.

Originally posted by Amaterasu


As I have said, Star Wars came AFTER the Papers were written, and Joseph Campbell spent a lot of time with the Hopi, and was George Lucas's friend and mentor.

Ama,

Your are making things Up.
Joseph Campbell was not Lucas' Mentor. Lucas Considered him a mentor thrugh his works.
Lucas was inspired by works written by Campbell. Campbell researched and wrote on many mythologies and cultures. Not Just the Hopi.
Lucas Only meet Campbell in the Late 83 at a lecture. Campbell Died in 87'. Campbell gave lectures at Lucas' ranch, well after the Star Wars Trilogy. Lucas has said in interviews it was campbells influence from The Hero with a thousand faces which was written in 1949 that influenced his work. Again this work was well before the Terra Papers.
The Book became Popular again when it was reprinted post Star Wars with Mark Hamil on the cover as Luke SkyWalker.
This book is a tome to Mythology and comparative studies. MYTHOLOGY.
In the book Campbell notes that over the many traditions, cultures and myths over thousands of years from all over the world have the same fundamental traits in mythological figures. His influence fromFreud and Jung influenced him and led him to make certain relevant observations about mans ability to create such Myths resulting in the Monomyth.

It is interesting that you have injected an expert on Myth into such a Thread, don't you agree.
I am alarmed at the way your are twisting things to support the Terra Papers.
You know that people are finding the similarities in the Terra Papers and Star Wars and are questioning the authenticity of the Papers. I believe you are spreading disinformation to create the MYTH that the papers were around before Star Wars. This is wrong.

Ama,
Care to explain why your are on a crusade to promote the Terra Papers.
Is that not against the T&C of the site.
Here you are on another thread saying the same things here.

No... But I recommend The Terra Papers (linked in my sig). The Terra Papers were written as a term paper in the late 1960's. They were written by a Hopi, Robert Morning Sky, who was taking a course in Origins of Religion, and he needed a topic for his term paper.

And on this thread you offer an explanation as to the similarities to Star Wars after your promo for the Terra Papers. Your not happy for people to come to their own conclusions are you?

When reading the Papers, it is good to know that they PREDATE Star Wars by a number of years. There are elements that will remind you of Star Wars. I suspect that is because it is likely that Joseph Campbell, one of the lead authorities on human myths and legends, spent a long while with the Hopi and may have been introduced to Bek'Ti's information.

And Joseph Campbell was a close friend and mentor of George Lucas.

Here you are building the Myth on Campbell's reputation and infering that he influenced Star Wars through his Hopi studies and that is why it resembles the Terra papers.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

This thread too, pushing the Terra Papers.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Wow, how it all makes sense, another thread...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Yet another one....again with all your terra Papers links.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I smell something here, and its not an open and honest discussion on wether people believe the Terra papers or not.

Oh, i've read them couple of times. I think it is mostly real. Let's just say that if it is not real then mr. Robert Morning Sky must be the greatest story teller of all times.

Originally posted by merky
I feel this is pure fiction. You could make a movie about all this, a mix of Star Wars, Dune, and others.
I read to page four and it was the same old story with a little different spin to comply with copyright laws......

It's no wonder any of the major religions laugh at this. Insect man, fish man (aka) Aqua man, Bird man. Funny they are all called...."man".
Enough time wasted......see ya

If you listen to Clifford Stone's question and answer in The Disclosure Project, he coincidentally says something like (paraphrasing here): At the time he left the service there were 57 documented types/species of aliens - and they looked HUMANOID which had perplexed the military as they expected aliens to look UNhuman.

He said some of them look just like us and you wouldn't know it otherwise other than exceptional senses we don't have; others are reptilian HUMANOIDS (a humanoid being a head, two arms and two legs).

They were expecting some to look like Octopus I guess - Do you know that there are species of HUMANS on earth that have no relation to another - they are a distinct species just like a cat is to a dog? Yet cats and dogs are humanoids too - a head, two arms (front feet) and two legs (hind feet).

Humanoid is the rule because it's the best way to exist!

So you stopped reading because of that.... ? Logically - even if it wasn't written until the 90's (which I absolutely disagree with), that he referred to these as humanoids and the military later says the same thing - are we supposed to believe then that the military stole the idea from the Terra Papers?



Or - could it be there's actually truth to the story..... Hmmmm.....

reply to post by kshaund


There is one way to prove that "The Terra Papers" came out before Mr Sitchin and George Lucas. If they were a college thesis, then the university or college where Mr Morning Sky went to would have it in their records. The people who know Mr Morning Sky should ask him to have it released with the records that it was turned in the university.

I am not claiming the papers are real. Some other people are, and they need to prove it. I and others on this site (or anywhere else) do not have to disprove them. The burden of proof lies with the person or persons making such claims.

Also, the people who are skeptical of these papers have been very cordial and polite in their discussions of this subject. They are like me and want the truth. Unfortunately, there are many charlatans out there who would try to take advantage of people. The good thing is Mr Morning Sky has released his papers so they could be read for free, and that shows he is not a bad guy.

However, as Dr Carl Sagan states: Extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof.

I also have to state that I grew up in the 1970s, and New Age was the fad going on. Pyramid power, kirlian photography, UFOs, ancient astronauts, Atlantis and many, many other areas were "in" during that decade. I should not assume Mr Morning Sky was into the New Age, but "The Terra Papers" read very much like the authors who were into such subjects at the time.

Originally posted by kshaund

Originally posted by merky
I feel this is pure fiction. You could make a movie about all this, a mix of Star Wars, Dune, and others.
I read to page four and it was the same old story with a little different spin to comply with copyright laws......

It's no wonder any of the major religions laugh at this. Insect man, fish man (aka) Aqua man, Bird man. Funny they are all called...."man".
Enough time wasted......see ya

If you listen to Clifford Stone's question and answer in The Disclosure Project, he coincidentally says something like (paraphrasing here): At the time he left the service there were 57 documented types/species of aliens - and they looked HUMANOID which had perplexed the military as they expected aliens to look UNhuman.

He said some of them look just like us and you wouldn't know it otherwise other than exceptional senses we don't have; others are reptilian HUMANOIDS (a humanoid being a head, two arms and two legs).

They were expecting some to look like Octopus I guess - Do you know that there are species of HUMANS on earth that have no relation to another - they are a distinct species just like a cat is to a dog? Yet cats and dogs are humanoids too - a head, two arms (front feet) and two legs (hind feet).

Humanoid is the rule because it's the best way to exist!

So you stopped reading because of that.... ? Logically - even if it wasn't written until the 90's (which I absolutely disagree with), that he referred to these as humanoids and ****the military**** later says the same thing - are we supposed to believe then that the military stole the idea from the Terra Papers?

Or - could it be there's actually truth to the story..... Hmmmm.....

Clifford Stone is not the military. The military is not Clifford Stone.
Clifford Stone says something and it does not equal the military saying it.

Kshaund... Do you know Robert Morning Sky personally? Would you be able to contact him?

What is his grandfathers name? Where did he grow up? Did he grow up in a community?

Originally posted by kidflash2008
I also have to state that I grew up in the 1970s, and New Age was the fad going on. Pyramid power, kirlian photography, UFOs, ancient astronauts, Atlantis and many, many other areas were "in" during that decade. I should not assume Mr Morning Sky was into the New Age, but "The Terra Papers" read very much like the authors who were into such subjects at the time.

I too went through the New Age - tried it all myself for several years as you say - Robert didn't that I know of but he did speak at some of the Expos to reach people.

Passion is the key - our personal passion. That's what separates us from the others. Not every single human being has it. And I (personally believe) virtually none of the reptilian races have it either or else they wouldn't be doing what they're doing. We're lead to believe we're all created equal - but is that really true? I mean sure, we should all be born with equal rights, but if we really accept the truth - we are not all born equal. Some are healthier, some are smarter, etc. And I don't interpret that as being better than - just different than.

Re proof of thesis - thirty years back at some university or college that may or may not even exist in this day and age as many older institutions are no more - and you expect them to even have records that go back that far and then to even have documented a submission? What would you request Sitchin to do to prove his work?

This isn't a competition for who came out with what first - it doesn't matter! Because the story is told in many ways throughout time - it's the story that matters - not the author! History is FULL of these characters! Zeus - What better explanation does anyone else have besides decrying Prove It -

Robert says all the time - don't take my word for it - go and look yourself to see if the pieces fit. This is his puzzle he put together based on everything in and around his life experiences being a full blooded Indian growing up in the south west and his experiences with an alien. In my thirty plus years of researching (unfortunately) the premise of the Terra Papers only gets more and more confirmed. There's stuff coming out all the time that that support the Terra Papers premise - that we were created and we are not free until we wake up- to our real potential - passion/soul/love.

I believe (if I'm not mistaken) that Duncan Rhodes from Nexus magazine knew Robert when he first started to talk about the Terra Papers even before I met him. He was in Australia at the time. That was the very early 90s or late 80s, I don't recall. You could also email him and ask the question yourself. That's what I did with any author - I contacted them personally to find out who they were in real life.

I have personally met Colin Andrews of crop circle notariety, Zecharia Sitchin, William Bramley, Whitley Strieber, Barbara Marciniak, Drunvalo Melchelzidek, Dr. Frank Stranges, Miriam Delicado, Bob Dean, Budd Hopkins, Travis Walton, Dr. Marlo Morgan, David Icke, Anton Wilson, Robert Bauval and and and I could go on for paragraphs of others you would not have heard of unless you were everywhere all the time seeking out anyone who knew more than the rest.

I personally spent about half the time over a two year period with Robert and his family - we traveled to presentations, we did desert trips, workshops, and it is so unfortunate people pretty much only have the Terra Papers to go by - he has started publishing work again on his website - if you haven't checked it out it may be worth your time.

He has always been most polite and gracious to genuine inquiries in my experience, in his home there were several thousand books, non-fiction we all poured through all day every day putting pieces together. That was about ten years ago now.

Is the story of Ea and Enlil real? I think of the Terra Papers as an easy read to understand how screwed we are and how divinely we've been tampered with only to be downtrodden so we can't remember... all these things are memory jogs for us -

Face on Mars? Sphinx? Queen's Chamber is actually the King's Chamber because it's really the Orion Dynasty that's our problem? Why not?!? What do you believe is the real source of our beginnings, which is what the work is trying to get through to people.

reply to post by bloodline


Clifford Stone had a military life, and 100% more experience than I. Others in the military (eg Phil Schneider, Preston Nicholls) also say similar things about reptilians and ets and was the point of The Disclosure Project. There is always the possibility that all these people were either brainwashed to believe they saw different aliens when they really didn't, but I think it's far more probable they really saw aliens that looked like they described.

I mean realistically, if all the alien sightings are an even more grandiose hoax, then that would mean that human beings alone had the technology all this time to do such things for centuries as they've been documented way back when. Or.... there really are aliens everywhere and we humans seem to be the only ones that can't see them as readily as they see each other -unless you work/live in an underground base with them, that is.

So yes, Clifford Stone is not the military and the military is not Clifford Stone. But he did say things that exactly supported that contention, that Robert spoke about being humanoid (head, two arms, two legs) as the rule and not the exception. And yes, I knew Robert and his family personally about ten years back very well.

spelling

[edit on 6-6-2009 by kshaund]

Originally posted by Amaterasu

Originally posted by kerazeesicko
Robert Morning sky is a fraud. The native community where he is supposedly from has never heard of him/grandfather or this supposed legend. Also the all Native people from America and Canada know he is not a native american/canadian. So where is he from.
www.newagefraud.org...
Read the posts on the website from educated indian + actual hopi legends
www.indianlegend.com/hopi/hopi_index.htm.

It is funny that there are people out there who believe his star wars ripoff of a fable.

Ahhhh. There's that forum site - again. Read a couple of my posts up. I am very suspicious of that site. Maybe if there was a more reputable site (forums are not noted for their reliability), then I might consider these claims. But that site raises my suspicions greatly.

And since the Papers were written BEFORE Star Wars... Who might be "ripping off" whom?

To be honest...
That site also to me is pretty suspicious.
It is no more suspicious to me than Robert Morning Sky is though.

Look... Here's the thing.

If you can find someone to get Robert to substantiate his claims of being Apache and Hopi, then we have the first step of these papers being taken seriously. I would personally be willing to review them in a different manner if he was embraced by a community. Every Mescalero, Jacarilla, Kiowa person I know, and believe me I know a lot of indigenous people dude, has never heard of this guy. The Hopi folks I know also don't know this guy. I might head down there next year to the Hopi reserve so I will let you know what I find out ok?

Who knows? Maybe he's Navajo, who usually don't identify as Apache but are dene.

It would help the credibilty is all to a regular person (you mentioned I could be a disinfo agent but that is beyond stupid) like me.

DOES ANYONE KNOW ROBERT MORNING SKY AND CAN THEY CONTACT HIM TO ANSWER THESE SIMPLE QUETIONS:
A) What community did he grow up in?
B) What is the name of his grandfather?
C) What is his birth name?

Kshaund... Again... Can you contact Robert Morning Sky or no?
It seems you didn't answer this.

In keeping with the original question in this thread, I believe that it is fiction.

Too many inconsistencies and a sweeping lack of reference material which though stated by the OP and Mr. Morning Star as existing, exist only in their words with no physical evidence.

This is obviously a ploy on the part of the OP to garner attention for his book while skirting ATS guidelines.

Let the horse die and put the thread to bed.


For atlasastro,

You sure save me a lot of typing by covering all my points for me. Thanks mate :-)


[edit on 6/6/2009 by whiskeypoet]