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Why change the USA? Just leave it already!

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posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 04:44 PM
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I am getting sick of groups and parties in the USA trying to change it from a land of freedom which recognize the rights of individuals to some socialist-communist-marxist-(insert political ideology.)

These political and life philosophies are already used in other parts of the world. Why the heck don't those who want that type of life go where it already exists?! Why try to change what others love and believe in?!

You don't go into whole foods and try to change it into wal-mart.

You want socialized medicine, go to Cuba.

You want government run industry, go to Venezuela.

You want limits on speech you find hateful or against government, go to China.

You don't want to legally own firearms or let your neighbor, move to East Timor.

You want to pay 2/3 of your money in taxes to the government, move to Denmark.

The point is, there are already places that have everything these people are trying to change America into.

There is no more undiscovered lands for us Freedom loving individuals to go off to and re-setup shop. We came here to get away from all this nonsense.

Don't think that there isn't going to be a fight over this before its all said and done. When there is no where else to go and Freedom loving Americans are backed into a corner, watch out.

[edit on 3-6-2009 by Wolf321]




posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 04:47 PM
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Its because living in one world, we cannot have one country stealing from everyone on earth to feed themselves while they do not need all those resources do they.

Do you guys need 100 big macs a day, to keep you going, if you get my drift.

What about the people all over the world. You cannot have a pretence of world being one while america steals everything they can.

The world needs more balance.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by andy1033
 


I don't see the relevance of what your saying. Or I am misunderstanding you all together.

People are trying to erode freedom and liberty in America because we are too big of a consumer?



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by andy1033
Its because living in one world, we cannot have one country stealing from everyone on earth to feed themselves while they do not need all those resources do they.

Do you guys need 100 big macs a day, to keep you going, if you get my drift.

What about the people all over the world. You cannot have a pretence of world being one while america steals everything they can.

The world needs more balance.


I don't se where America has stolen anything from anyone. This country sends more money and food in foreign aid than most other countries combined. Where do you get off even positing that statement?
Besides,its hard to get those hundred big macs into an envlope to mail them to the starving masses.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 05:12 PM
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You just listed a bunch of things about America that you don't like. Many (unfortunately) are the law of the land. Some are just ideas some would like to see come to fruition. But why should people that do like too many gun laws, high taxation, and a regulated market be the ones to leave when they already have what they want right here?

Seems to me that you disagree with the way things ARE in America, so why don't you move somewhere else? I have some great suggestions:

You like lax gun laws? Go to Switzerland. They require assault rifle ownership for every male over 20.

You like very few taxes? Singapore has the least in the world. You should move there.

Want a free economy? Hong Kong is the place for you.

Don't get me wrong; I completely agree with you on almost every point you listed in your OP. I want less taxes, less gun control, 100% free speech, i don't necessarily want socialized health care (just to find a way to make it more accessible to the less fortunate), etc. But to this whole thing of telling people that don't agree with the way you think a country should be run is just getting silly.

Edit to add: S & F; I'm interested in the discussion this will generate. A discussion that involves the question of whether it is prudent for someone to leave the country they were born and raised in if they don't like the way it is going.

I should also add that I find it funny that the last 8 years people were telling others to move if they didn't like the things Bush was doing (which also eroded our freedom). But now they are telling them to move because THEY don't like what Obama is doing. Get my point?



[edit on 3-6-2009 by nunya13]



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 05:20 PM
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reply to post by nunya13
 


It's not the way I think the country should be run, its the way it was set up. We started off with all of these freedoms, but over time, groups and individuals have taken them away or continually limited and infringed on them, with hopes of going further.

I'm asking, why would they not just go where what they want already exists, instead of taking away from those in the only place where all of these freedoms did exist.

I as a freedom loving America shouldn't have to move to get back what was taken from me.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 05:23 PM
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Originally posted by nunya13
I should also add that I find it funny that the last 8 years people were telling others to move if they didn't like the things Bush was doing (which also eroded our freedom). But now they are telling them to move because THEY don't like what Obama is doing. Get my point?


I hear you, but its different to want to stay to fight to retain or regain rights, vs going where restrictions on rights already exist.

America was founded to be the light of a free world. We have to keep the fire stoked not let it die out to be closer to the darkness that exists in the rest of the world.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 05:23 PM
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reply to post by Wolf321
 


You want a country that remains static and fits into your narrow definition of how a country should be, regardless of the will of the people? Move to North Korea.

The American system is built to change and grow. If you don't like the direction, I suggest you try and use the system to your advantage instead of telling people to move away...especially when the people you're telling to leave have things going the way they want to go.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 05:26 PM
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reply to post by nunya13
 


I particularly don't care WHAT people like if it infringes on rights laid out in the Constitution. If these overbearing gun restrictions, excessive taxation, ect. are believed to be so great by some Americans that they would accept them regardless of their Constitutional bounds, then yes, I believe they should be the ones to believe.

This country was founded on the Constitution and is was meant to be maintained on such a Constitution. We are all raised and taught of understand of the document, so why is it so hard for some people to accept? Because people are threatened at the thought of the power.

The only reason people would be FOR these unconstitutional things is directly caused by the conditions that the originators of such beliefs (those in federal government) have created. If tyranny and deception would have never stepped onto the table, and we remained loyal to the Supreme Law of the Land, there would be no need for discussion of firearms regulation or taxation.

SO sad that we did not.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 05:26 PM
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reply to post by Wolf321
 


That is a good point. I guess I didn't think of it that way...standing up to get back what was taken in the first place. Like someone who chains themselves to their house that is about to be taken by eminent domain.

Unfortunately, everyone sees the world through different colored glasses or they won't see things the way they really are. Many have been duped that these things are better for America; therefore, though they may seem against our basic principles, they are really just a way to adapt to the changing times.

This is foolish for sure. But such is the nature of people not being able to think for themselves let alone think critically at all.

So, I don't think it is a question of getting people to leave America that are helping to make it the opposite of what it should be. It's a question of getting them to see that, while they may genuinely believe what they want is a good thing, it is all just smoke and mirrors for power hungry greedy you-know-what's to get even more power and riches.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by gwydionblack
reply to post by nunya13
 


The only reason people would be FOR these unconstitutional things is directly caused by the conditions that the originators of such beliefs (those in federal government) have created. If tyranny and deception would have never stepped onto the table, and we remained loyal to the Supreme Law of the Land, there would be no need for discussion of firearms regulation or taxation.

SO sad that we did not.


I think you and I are ultimately in agreement. We just differ on how to handle it. I say, let's help them see that what they want is really what "They" (TPTB) want disguised in grandeur.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 05:43 PM
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Ah, i see...you actually believe all that hype that we have freedom and rights here. If you want to lash out against those trying to restrict your freedom and rights, the person you need to lash out at is the government....and not just under obama. Bush did more to undermine the constitution than any president since lincoln. Suspending habeus corpus and due process. Obama seems to be gearing up to attack our gun rights, with his recent legislations controling bullets and his appointment of sotomayor. But these arent anything new. Americans have always been restricted. Think of the mccarthy era where spouting any ideas that might be construed as "socialist" (a word few americans really even know what it means) would get you blacklisted, fired, and possible imprisoned.

What was it....just a few months ago a man here got arrested for airing al jazeera news....hows that for free speech?

At any rate, the US was NEVER what you fondly remember in "the good ole days" so i would posit that as a member of this country, i and anyone else have our right to say what america should be just as much as you, and why should YOUR ideas of how america should be take precedence? Any single american has just as much ownership of our land as anyone else, and as such they should have just as much say as to "what makes america" and im sure everyone has their own opinion.

The idea "if you dont like it you can leave" is garbage. Many people put up with situations that are not ideal to be around those they love. Should we all stop trying to make our country a better place, just because others tell us "if you dont like it you can leave"?? If that was the ideal our forefathers followed, there would still be slavery, women would not be voting, and people would still be more slaves to the system than they are, working for a pittance, in unsafe factories and sweatshops.

Ok, somewhat off topic here, but i had an epiphany today. It seems funny to me how we have leftists and rightists, and the leftists are generally progressive, and the rightists are conservative, but BOTH want change. Funnily enough, the rightists never realize that the left has driven every single change worth mentioning since the founding of our country. Equality, women sufferage, black sufferage, end to vietnam, labor laws, all were pushed by the left and fought by the right....all the things we think made our country "great" the right, AND our goverment used murder, abuse, and imprisonment to keep us from getting, while leftists sat in the street with signs, took abuse, and sacrificed to make our land fairer. Just something to keep in mind.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 05:53 PM
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Im all for the world working together, recognizing the importance of resources and freedom for all, why not, thats how it should be.

But.. why all the murderous deception a manipulation to gain this?? ( all throughout history ) if this one world plan was righteous I dont understand the evil to attain it, is it a case of the ends justify the means??

just a thought.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 05:58 PM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

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posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 06:02 PM
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reply to post by Wolf321
 


I hear you. I, as a freedom-loving American, and one who went to war for my country, did willfully choose to leave. Not because I didn't like the way things were going, but a perception of patterns; I saw my own government coming after me...... ME! The poor [vulgar expletive] that protected your dumb [posteriors]. To this day, I still feel betrayed.

I figured I'd made my bones many times over. It was time for me to find my happy place where I could live and be left the hell alone.

That's exactly what I/we (m'Bride and I) found. I love the United States, and I've done some terrible things for her honor. There. That's the expanded truth of it. I couldn't take any more. We left. I've been called a coward by my buddies. That's okay. Peace be to you brother.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by DraconianKing
 


I am going to control myself. Your foul vitrol tests me more than I have been tested since I've joined ATS. I suggest you modify your post -- make it more about what you can demonstrate, and less about hate-filled labels.

Then, after 10 minutes, in which time I will chill....... we can debate, if you care to. I want to debate the issues and not your ...... personality. This is the essence -- for me at least -- of denying ignorance.

See you in a few.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 06:09 PM
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Whats funny to me is that he really believes that "our country was founded on equality, and freedom...blah blah...blah blah blah"....except for women...except for africans.....except for non landowners. Obviously he has no true understanding of history, that our constitution was written by the richest men in america (george washinton was in top 10 richest) and was formed just as much to protect their fortunes as it was to grant order and opportunity.

The problem is that is what they actually teach in schools, that our country was founded looking out for the little guy, and with no truth to balance it these people have no perspective. I really wish more people would read howard zinn's 'a peoples history of the united states"...while he never claims to be unbiased, its an amazing read and contains every single movement, all the fights for rights, for labor conditions, our interactions in other countries, many undeniable facts that show the true fabric of our nation, not what we Profess it to be.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 06:18 PM
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Another Neo-Con Nazi having a tantrum because nobody wants to start burning gay people and worshiping Rush Limbaugh your all mighty fuhrer.
reply to post by DraconianKing
 



If someone were looking for a place where Christian churches are going up on every corner, where people worship Rush Limbaugh, where they can find hungry people to work for them for almost free, no building restrictions to speak of and so on, might I suggest Roatan Honduras. Lots of Republicans from Texas moving there, you'd be hard pressed to find a Democrat anywhere near.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 06:23 PM
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reply to post by DraconianKing
 


was that directed at me drac??



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 06:49 PM
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My truth is..... it's not as easy as just leaving for most who don't like the way things are in the U.S. Also, that's part of what made this country great and productive and -- at least initially -- somewhat just *, the ability to question government.

I understand the underlying feeling of the OP, and relate to it, becuase particularly of late, there seems to be a constant dig at various facets of the U.S., and much of it, perhaps deserved. That's what I heard.

I am standing down now. I wandered off-topic, as I'm doing now, in response to a poster who tweaked me off.

There isn't anything to debate. I could just match their labels with my own. Pointless.

Out

* edit to complete the thought.


[edit on 3/6/09 by argentus]



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