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Attn Techno-Shamens: Binaural Beat Brainwave Entrainment

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posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 05:34 AM
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reply to post by OmegaPoint
 


Ok, since this argument can go on forever, and no one wants to try this, I'll try it myself.

I found a example of these beats online and listened to them, they gave me an instant headache. Its like listening to static on the the TV set. The other one was like listening to a TV audio test signal. However I suppose I can suffer through it for 30 minutes or so.

I have to get wired up this weekend anyway for another test, so I might as well try this as well. Someone want to give me a quick rundown on exactly what it is I am supposed to do, and what sound file I should listen to? I know nothing about meditation. I'll run a 30 minute baseline with no noise, and a 30 minute baseline with noise, and have the brainwaves scored by the person who reads our EEG's. I'll let you know the percent of time in each state of brainwaves when I am finished. Of course this is unofficial, and I am not a Physician, so its not an endorsement one way or the other.




posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 07:30 AM
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reply to post by OmegaPoint
 


You have yet to show a single credible report stating this:

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
takes the meditator from Alpha, to Theta and then into Delta. A Zen or Yogi master will ordinarily achieve Alpha with dips into Theta and rarely enter Delta.

and denying this:

Originally posted by defcon5
Sorry to tell you this but…
Alpha waves are normal if you have your eyes closed and are awake. You don’t need a machine to make that happen, everyone does it. We use them to determine when a person falls asleep into stage one sleep.

Theta waves can be seen when either awake or asleep, also when getting drowsy.
Delta waves ONLY happen when the person is asleep, they are considered slow wave or stage 3 & 4 sleep.

So basically you’re either paying money for something that is making you fall asleep, most likely from boredom, or their website is full of new age BS. Probably some both…


If you want to have Alpha waves, all you have to do is close your eyes and relax, you don't need a machine to do it. Theta waves happen all the time naturally. Delta waves are the only waves that we can use to prove whether this Binaural stimulation works or not.

After re-reading this thread, I think I might know where the misunderstanding is:

Certain posters have tried to drag this into discussing off-topic meditation and other things, some simply to win a debate obviously (one of which I think is just a professional debater who likes to argue with me), much of which I have ignored. My original problem is that most of these brainwaves that you all claim to have effected with this stuff are all brainwaves you normally produce when awake anyway. Sound can effect your brain, as I have already stated that it can generate K-Complexes.


Originally posted by defcon5
More then likely what this is causing is K-Complexes, which are brainwaves generated by Audio Stimulus.


Certain frequencies can also generate emotional response, relax muscles, cause discomfort etc. Heck I used to work with a guy who told me about how in College they would make people “mess themselves” by generating certain frequencies at them as a prank.

From your OWN sources, which none of you apparently read, was that even Mono sound does this, Binaural stimulation does nothing extra:

Originally posted by defcon5


(3) there was no interaction between stimulus type and the size of the contralaterality effect; (4) there was no indication of binaural summation, rather we found stronger hemodynamic responses to the sum of both monaural stimulations (right and left ear) than to binaural stimulation in all auditory areas; (5) there were generally stronger hemodynamic responses to CV syllables than to tones in the posterior STG, while the hemodynamic responses to tones were stronger in the anterior part of the STG (temporal pole); and finally (6) there was no general difference in terms of hemodynamic response in the auditory cortex between the two groups when receiving either loudness-matched or non-loudness-matched monaural stimulation. These findings are discussed in the context of the underlying neurophysiological mechanisms, the peculiarities of functional fMRI, and the direct access and callosal relay models of hemispheric lateralization.

“there was no indication of binaural summation, rather we found stronger hemodynamic responses to the sum of both monaural stimulations than to binaural stimulation in all auditory areas”

Translation… Binaural stimulation did squat.


You don't need to use Binaural stimulation to do anything, as its really does nothing you cannot do on your own naturally. Its Snake Oil, that someone is using to make money. As was already quoted from the MD at QuackWatch:

There is no scientific evidence that any device can help people by synchronizing the two sides of the brain or increasing the frequency of alpha waves (a type of brain wave).


Wow...
Now that I go back and read the thread again, its funny how this (my first post):

Originally posted by defcon5
Sorry to tell you this but…
Alpha waves are normal if you have your eyes closed and are awake. You don’t need a machine to make that happen, everyone does it.

Seems to agree with this (from a Doctor):

There is no scientific evidence that any device can help people by... increasing the frequency of alpha waves (a type of brain wave).

Yet I am the one who supposedly doesn't have a clue what I am talking about, eh?

And Canterpoint, the group you originally link to, is a group of scam artists that have negative reports filed against them with the Better Business Bureau, The Oregon State Attorneys Office, and the Federal Trade Commission.


Centerpointe Research Rip Off Scam

This book is a pontification of Centerpointe Research's Holosync Program. Consider it one long testimonial rather than fact based information. Information in this book focuses solely on anecdotal reports for so-called Holosync Program users. Those who have dealings with Centerpointe have found them to fall into the category of internet rip off companies.There are extremely negative reports on the following sites: The Rip Off Report, Better Business Bureau of Oregon. It seems that this company, and it's pundit Bill Harris are dishonest, do not stand by their "satisfaction guaranteed" policy or cliams of company integrity.
Buyer Beware. It is claimed one will "meditate like a Zen monk" with this program, then when customers don't get the results promised, it is claimed that often "nothing happens...and that's ok, that's how the program is". One must marvel at the audacity of this company to sell absolutely nothing to it's customers. Please file a report with the Oregon Stae Attorney General and The Federal Trade Commission if you have been victimized by this company.


Centerpointe Research Institute: Rip-Off Report

What else is there really to say about this topic?



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 10:28 AM
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What else is there to say?

Please leave the topic to others interested in the process of inducing deep medidation via binaural beat brainwave entrainment technology, thank you very much.

And regarding the few complaints from people who apparently didn't get a refund from Centerpointe, that's unfortunate, but not meaningful. And of the 100's of 1000's of users, particularly for something like this, there are bound to be a few who were not pleased anf for whom the program didn't meet their expectations.

Personally I've found the whole thing and my experience with Centerpointe absolutely wonderful, all the way down the line.

I wanted to talk about shared experiences however, regarding this technology and the effects and benefits people are experiencing with it, but alas, the thread took another direction...


[edit on 5-6-2009 by OmegaPoint]



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
I have to get wired up this weekend anyway for another test, so I might as well try this as well.


There are not many fields so influenced by your state of mind, as meditation. Talk about the placebo effect and just getting whatever results you're looking for. Do you really doubt the authenticity of the study showing that the Tibetan monks had dramatically different brain function than a sample of average Western people? They didn't even need this technology. And similarly, it wouldn't do YOU any good because you wouldn't know how to make use of it; you don't even meditate to begin with. You would probably sooner just sit there feeling slightly annoyed, and being convinced nothing will happen, than even make an effort to go with it and take your mind anywhere interesting. You wouldn't know how.

This reminds me of someone who doesn't play violin, trying to prove a Vivaldi piece is impossible to play by attempting to play it by himself. No doubt he is going to keep failing at it for a long time. Just don't convince yourself that you have anywhere near the same experience with this as people who actually practice it.

[edit on 5-6-2009 by bsbray11]



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5
They are shocked about it because its not normal.


Not normal for people who work a 9-5, eat fast food, watch TV and go to bed no more aware than they were at the beginning of the day, or even last year. And we all feel sorry for those people. People who are arrogantly convinced the only meaningful discourse is with their like-minded peers. You're a living example of this mentality, as you obviously have no respect for any culture or perspective outside of the one you personally value. Maybe if yourself and those you model yourself after weren't so prejudiced against studies like the one the Dalai Lama sponsored, you would be seeing more studies on these people, and not just scratching your head every time someone breaks one of your self-imposed rules. I still think it's funny that you said you tell people who are wide awake that they are actually sleeping. Obviously your science is abusing the privilege of creating technical definitions; "sleep" is now a meaningless term if I can apparently be awake during it.

I say be careful who you model "normal" after, because you are binding yourself to amounting only to less-than-mediocrity in a country that is no longer known for its intelligence and education, but for being passive, stupid, and unhealthy. See if you can avoid reinforcing the new American status quo.



Originally posted by defcon5
The only thing that I have learned from running EEG is how the brain works



In the continuing effort to understand the human brain, the mysteries keep piling up.


www.nytimes.com...


Our brains can fathom the beginning of time and the end of the universe, but is any brain capable of understanding itself?

With billions of neurons, each with thousands of connections, one's noggin is a complex, and yes congested, mental freeway. Neurologists and cognitive scientists nowadays are probing how the mind gives rise to thoughts, actions, emotions and ultimately consciousness.

The complex machine is difficult for even the brainiest of scientists to wrap their heads around.


www.livescience.com...

Classic example of arrogance. You are just better than us, and everyone else, aren't you?

In case you miss my point, you DON'T fully understand how the brain works.

[edit on 5-6-2009 by bsbray11]



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 02:31 PM
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Meditation has SCIENTIFICALLY be proven to work and slow down brainwave. There are scientific articles on this and, of course, plenty of shows on Discovery channel and the Science channel for those of us who don't feel like reading one of those. The government researches the many functions of meditation (most governments). It is tested and proven to work.
Yes, you can easily bring yourself into ALpha state by closing your eyes and breathing deep, regular breaths. If you do that long enough, daily, it would be a form of meditation and eventually change your brain waves. It's like training a muscle - training your limbic and nervous system.
I have read a bit about binaural beats but have only tried a sample. It worked for me and did not give me a headache.



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 05:04 PM
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Anyone and everyone goes into Alpha when then close their eyes, or are deep in concentration, say reading a good book. Theta OTOH, while typically the brainwave pattern of REM sleep, and hypnagogic sleep, if I'm not mistaken, is rarely experienced in normal circumstances while awake. However, good meditators can move into and maintain Theta while in deep meditation, and it's very good for you. And yes, Delta is also possible in the meditative state, but unless you're a Yogi master who's been meditating for 4+ hours a day for the last 20+ years, you're not going to have meditative Delta unless using binaural beat brainwave entrainment technology. It also differs somewhat, apparently, from sleeping delta. From what I understand, we continually fluctuate during the day with SOME alpha, theta, and even some delta, all the time, with the waking state predominated by beta and alpha with SOME theta.

Here's a nice powerpoint presentation on the brainwave patterns of meditation which I offered in the OP, before this thread got derailed by the know it all EEG tech sceptic.

www.centerpointe.com...

[edit on 5-6-2009 by OmegaPoint]



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 07:00 PM
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I was asked by a user to create for my previous libraries were lost due to 2 HD dying on me, music with binaural beats inserts.

Used Brain Wave Generator to create a Schumann resonance of 7.83 Hz and a Theta Frequency of 6.1 Hz with some 8 Hz spikes at a minute intervals and mixed all of it down with a classical music track using Cool edit pro. I could not use Gnaural... need a good Gnaural tutorial if anyone have one floating around.

Gave one heck of an interesting track


Also discovered while using Cool Edit Pro that Cool Edit also have it's own brainwave generator which I was clueless about, will be interesting to test this feature at a later time.

To the user who asked for this track, please U2U an e-mail addy for I cannot reply till I have reached a minimum of 20 posts on ATS but I do have one track ready



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 09:29 PM
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Originally posted by OmegaPoint
Please leave the topic to others interested in the process of inducing deep medidation via binaural beat brainwave entrainment technology, thank you very much.

You've got to be kidding.
That's a real cheek to post a sales pitch for a highly questionable product on a public forum, and demand that people with information on it that you don't want to hear don't post.

I'm very interested to hear what defcon5 has to say, and I'm sure many other browsers are too.

But perhaps that's what you're worried about.


Personally, I found this method to be less effective than the normal meditation I do.



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 09:53 PM
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If you know much about it and have followed the thread you'd know why I was getting so annoyed by his continual insistence that there is in essence no such thing and that any product using entrainment technology must be "snake oil", when that's not the case at all.

But that said, you're right that it's not appropriate to try to silence another ATS user for that I apologize. I was wrong. It's ok to be wrong sometimes..



posted on Jun, 5 2009 @ 10:46 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
There are not many fields so influenced by your state of mind, as meditation. Talk about the placebo effect and just getting whatever results you're looking for.

Oh no you don’t…
Here you go again trying to swap apples for oranges. The claims on this thread, and on their home page about this device are:

Basically, it's the use of a tone differential introduced into each ear using stereo headphones, which causes two nuclei centers in the brain to set up a harmonic brainwave frequency, producing the brainwave patterns of deep meditation, without the required years of meditative practice achieving such states usually requires.

Which means that I don’t need to be practiced in meditation for it to work, because the beats do it automatically. If the beats are not causing the change, then you are correct, its really about placebo effect.


Originally posted by bsbray11
Do you really doubt the authenticity of the study showing that the Tibetan monks had dramatically different brain function than a sample of average Western people?

A) You have not shown me that study that I have noticed.
B) This thread is not about meditation, you are bringing in apples to an orange convention again.
C) I have not commented on possible effects of meditation on brainwaves in this thread. (if i have please show me where)


Originally posted by bsbray11
They didn't even need this technology. And similarly, it wouldn't do YOU any good because you wouldn't know how to make use of it; you don't even meditate to begin with.

Exactly my point, if its not the machine that is doing anything, then how is it different then a patient gaining benefit from taking a sugar pill?


Originally posted by bsbray11
You would probably sooner just sit there feeling slightly annoyed, and being convinced nothing will happen, than even make an effort to go with it and take your mind anywhere interesting.

I don’t think I would be annoyed, but that sound is like nails on a chalkboard.


Originally posted by bsbray11
This reminds me of someone who doesn't play violin, trying to prove a Vivaldi piece is impossible to play by attempting to play it by himself. No doubt he is going to keep failing at it for a long time.

If the Violin is advertised to play the music perfectly without an experience from the person bowing it, then it should require no experience from the player. If the player has all this experience then why would he need a self playing violin to begin with?

I mean, what you are telling me is that it won’t work for someone not experienced in meditation, and someone who is experienced in meditation doesn’t need this, right? So if that is the case, what exactly is it good for other then lining some blokes pockets?

See my point…


IMHO the real reason why you don’t want me to test this is because, we both know what the results will end up being.

If I run a test, sitting in a recliner, relaxing, trying to clear my mind and concentrate on my breathing for 30 minutes, both with and without the device on (and don’t fall asleep):

Baseline:
60 Epochs of Alpha Rhythm.
With the unit:
60 Epochs of Alpha Rhythm.
If I sit in the chair agitated with my eyes closed:
60 Epochs of Alpha Rhythm, with possible muscle artifact.



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 12:25 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
Not normal for people who work a 9-5, eat fast food, watch TV and go to bed no more aware than they were at the beginning of the day, or even last year.

Sorry to inform you of this, but it’s not only how medicine works, its also how science in general works. You get a baseline (normal), and you use that for comparison to everything else. If it does not fall inside the range of the baseline then it’s abnormal, or since this is ATS
, Paranormal.



Originally posted by bsbray11
You're a living example of this mentality, as you obviously have no respect for any culture or perspective outside of the one you personally value.

I am sorry, where have I offended anyone’s Culture? For that matter where have I offended anyone’s perspective, I mean, outside the guys selling this stuff. Chapter and verse, or it didn’t happen.



Originally posted by bsbray11
Maybe if yourself and those you model yourself after weren't so prejudiced against studies like the one the Dalai Lama sponsored, you would be seeing more studies on these people, and not just scratching your head every time someone breaks one of your self-imposed rules.

You ever think that maybe the Dalai Lama was the one who prejudiced those tests? After all it’s a part of their religion, I think that they might have a vested interest in the way those tests turned out, don’t you?

But again, please show me where I have picked on meditation in general, in this thread anyway? See, I have not, but you have taken it as though I have because you must have some vested interest in this as well. You cannot run an unbiased test with biased people. Now me, or any of the other techs I know, have no stake in this one way or the other, it really does not affect us, our jobs, or our vision on life. So why do you think that I have some personal vendetta against meditation?


Originally posted by bsbray11
I still think it's funny that you said you tell people who are wide awake that they are actually sleeping.

We see people who have sleep disorders and think they are awake, but they are really in stage 1 sleep. Sorry if you cannot accept that peoples perceptions of events become askew when the chemicals that induce sleep start pumping. The machine never lies though, its black and white (well mine is actually in color
).

They also use these machines in surgeries where they have to clamp the carotid artery, similarly looking for slowing of brain waves to keep the patient from either dying or ending up with brain damage, so they are quite accurate. Oh, but let me guess, its accurate enough to keep someone alive, but not enough to tell when someone is entering sleep, even though we are looking for the same basic signs.


Originally posted by bsbray11
Obviously your science is abusing the privilege of creating technical definitions; "sleep" is now a meaningless term if I can apparently be awake during it.

Do to your lack of understanding of the topic, you are again incorrect. There are specific criteria that are used to determine scoring of sleep. One Delta Wave in an epoch does not slow wave make, however two K-Complexes in an epoch of REM makes stage two…


I know you don’t get it, your not meant to.

Point is that it doesn’t work the way your assuming it works, and I am not going to give you a class on sleep staging in this thread.

Lets just say you're wrong, and leave it at that, K?


Originally posted by bsbray11
less-than-mediocrity in a country that is no longer known for its intelligence and education, but for being passive, stupid, and unhealthy. See if you can avoid reinforcing the new American status quo.

Who was it that was accusing whom of picking on someone's culture again?


Originally posted by bsbray11


The complex machine is difficult for even the brainiest of scientists to wrap their heads around.

Classic example of arrogance. You are just better than us, and everyone else, aren't you?

This is rather difficult to explain, but…
No one completely understands how the brain works, but we do understand how Brain Waves work. We additionally know what all the major structures of the brain do, from having observed people with brain damage over the years. You know, we also don’t know how every cell in the heart works, but we can read an EKG and tell what is going on. An EEG is the same thing as an EKG, but its run at a different speed, amplitude, and with different filters. We even run an EKG right on the same page as the EEG. Now, are you going to tell me that we don’t know what all the different patterns of EKG mean? Well guess what, when you read an EEG you look at an overall rhythm for a set period of time, you look at the speeds, amplitudes, and the structures, and you can tell patterns the same as with EKG. We know this stuff from running millions of EEGs over the last 60 years. An EEG reads potential differences exactly the same way that an EKG does, but they are from impulses in your brain rather then foci in heart muscle.

If you're expecting that an EEG can tell what each little neuron does when it fires, you don’t know what an EEG is doing. See, there is no way that any piece of equipment can tell what each neuron is doing because everyone’s brain is wired as uniquely as their finger prints are laid out. Yet we know what structures there are in a finger print, don’t we? If you doubt the accuracy of reading EEG, then this entire thread is MOOT, because the rhythms we are discussing are all patterns that have been learned through running EEG’s. If you dispute the accuracy of those patterns, then you cannot be increasing your Alpha Rhythm through any activity, because you dispute the existence of an Alpha Rhythm to begin with.

I hope that makes sense.



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 01:36 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Oh no you don’t…
Here you go again trying to swap apples for oranges. The claims on this thread, and on their home page about this device are:


I was never defending that product, I'm just playing Devil's advocate to you because I don't like the way you think you know everything about the brain already.


Which means that I don’t need to be practiced in meditation for it to work, because the beats do it automatically. If the beats are not causing the change, then you are correct, its really about placebo effect.


Well regardless of what the makers of the product tell you to do with it (I never read their instructions anyway), imagine going out and buying a book when you don't know how to read. You've heard all these wonderful things about books, but you'd still be forced to conclude that it's nonsense, at least to you, because you can't make heads or tails of it.

If you feel like you would be more satisfied to resolve a trivial argument on an internet forum, than see what else is behind meditation and these ways that people dramatically change their own brain function, I think you are selling yourself obscenely short.



Originally posted by bsbray11
Do you really doubt the authenticity of the study showing that the Tibetan monks had dramatically different brain function than a sample of average Western people?

A) You have not shown me that study that I have noticed.


I posted it on page four, but here it is again:


The Dalai Lama ultimately dispatched eight of his most accomplished practitioners to Davidson's lab to have them hooked up for electroencephalograph (EEG) testing and brain scanning. The Buddhist practitioners in the experiment had undergone training in the Tibetan Nyingmapa and Kagyupa traditions of meditation for an estimated 10,000 to 50,000 hours, over time periods of 15 to 40 years. As a control, 10 student volunteers with no previous meditation experience were also tested after one week of training.

The monks and volunteers were fitted with a net of 256 electrical sensors and asked to meditate for short periods. Thinking and other mental activity are known to produce slight, but detectable, bursts of electrical activity as large groupings of neurons send messages to each other, and that's what the sensors picked up. Davidson was especially interested in measuring gamma waves, some of the highest-frequency and most important electrical brain impulses.

Both groups were asked to meditate, specifically on unconditional compassion. Buddhist teaching describes that state, which is at the heart of the Dalai Lama's teaching, as the "unrestricted readiness and availability to help living beings." The researchers chose that focus because it does not require concentrating on particular objects, memories or images, and cultivates instead a transformed state of being.

Davidson said that the results unambiguously showed that meditation activated the trained minds of the monks in significantly different ways from those of the volunteers. Most important, the electrodes picked up much greater activation of fast-moving and unusually powerful gamma waves in the monks, and found that the movement of the waves through the brain was far better organized and coordinated than in the students. The meditation novices showed only a slight increase in gamma wave activity while meditating, but some of the monks produced gamma wave activity more powerful than any previously reported in a healthy person, Davidson said.


www.washingtonpost.com...


B) This thread is not about meditation, you are bringing in apples to an orange convention again.


It's more about meditation than it is about EEG machines. You are trying to pick apart the OP and analyze it under a microscope, I am telling you the REAL reason people listen to these things to begin with and what they are REALLY trying to achieve. It has everything to do with the thread.



Originally posted by bsbray11
They didn't even need this technology. And similarly, it wouldn't do YOU any good because you wouldn't know how to make use of it; you don't even meditate to begin with.

Exactly my point, if its not the machine that is doing anything, then how is it different then a patient gaining benefit from taking a sugar pill?


It's like training wheels on a bike, or any other learning tool. But it's still very limited, I agree.


IMHO the real reason why you don’t want me to test this is because, we both know what the results will end up being.


Yes, and you'll have wasted your time and come away tending to associate meditation itself with your failure and so will pay it even less mind in the future, thinking you already know what it's about. I can't say for sure that will happen but based on how people typically behave I think my assumption has some statistical validity at least. At any rate you don't meditate now and you probably are not about to start after seeing this thread. But at least consider that meditation IS a wonderful thing when approached properly.



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 01:51 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Sorry to inform you of this, but it’s not only how medicine works, its also how science in general works. You get a baseline (normal), and you use that for comparison to everything else.


Then you must realize that all science based on that principle is relative and not universally true. Anything that is not already "normal" is often excluded entirely from consideration, and the more unexplainable something is the more likely it is to be ignored altogether. The mental states of Tibetan monks, for instance, would be "outliers" compared to most Western people.


You ever think that maybe the Dalai Lama was the one who prejudiced those tests? After all it’s a part of their religion, I think that they might have a vested interest in the way those tests turned out, don’t you?


Maybe you should start a thread and investigate it yourself: Dalai Lama rigs University of Wisconsin psychological studies to push a religious agenda? Apparently so, and you haven't even read it yet have you?
You remember what Einstein said about contempt prior to investigation, being the height of ignorance?



Originally posted by bsbray11
Obviously your science is abusing the privilege of creating technical definitions; "sleep" is now a meaningless term if I can apparently be awake during it.

Do to your lack of understanding of the topic, you are again incorrect. There are specific criteria that are used to determine scoring of sleep. One Delta Wave in an epoch does not slow wave make, however two K-Complexes in an epoch of REM makes stage two…


That's actually exactly what I was talking about when I said you abuse the privilege of defining terms technically. But you were so eager to rub something in my face I don't guess you ever took the time to fully comprehend that.


This is rather difficult to explain, but…


But basically you would like to tell me that you know everything about the brain, without admitting we don't really know everything about the brain. I know what you're saying. I am not particularly interested in analyzing every single neuron firing in every single thought; I am more interested in bringing up the ways your brain functions translate into your actual experiences and perceptions. Because that's where all the interesting things are, not in looking at your brain under a microscope. That's what I mean when I say you don't know everything about your brain. You don't even meditate, so I know you don't.



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 12:59 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


Robert Monroe has never claimed to be a medical expert. However thousands of people have used his methods with success.

I will bet there are bona fide medical experts who cannot claim his success or knowledge though.



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 01:27 PM
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Me I'm looking and feeling, thinking and percieving better than I have in many years. People are even telling me that I'm looking younger. It's it's partly a placebo effect I'm ok with that, but that's not my experience with it, since the meditations are very deep, wherein I experience at times, bright lights flashing, sometimes brief visions, and a depth of mediation so deep that I have to sit for at least fifteen to twenty minutes afterwards to swim back up to a refreshed state of mind. It's not only highly effective, but powerfully so, and the health benefits are astounding, almost too good to true, but it is, and that's my experience.

From a psychological &/or spiritual growth perspective, I would refer people to this post I made earlier the thread as to how that works.

post by OmegaPoint
 


[edit on 6-6-2009 by OmegaPoint]



posted on Jun, 6 2009 @ 02:16 PM
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after reading this thread a question I have on the scientific side is:

what kind of effects on our brain waves does being hooked up to an EEG machine have?

Just a paradox I thought I should throw out there.



posted on Jun, 7 2009 @ 02:04 AM
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Originally posted by groingrinder
reply to post by defcon5
 


Robert Monroe has never claimed to be a medical expert. However thousands of people have used his methods with success.

I will bet there are bona fide medical experts who cannot claim his success or knowledge though.



Amen to that




Originally posted by defcon5


Ok, since this argument can go on forever, and no one wants to try this, I'll try it myself.

I found a example of these beats online and listened to them, they gave me an instant headache. Its like listening to static on the the TV set. The other one was like listening to a TV audio test signal. However I suppose I can suffer through it for 30 minutes or so.



Would you please consider sharing where you found the beat that gave you such a horrid headache by linking the site of the beat in question.



posted on Jun, 7 2009 @ 02:12 AM
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They are very quiet, little more than a background hum in the Holosync tracks, where the predominant sounds are of rain, and crytal bowls. I enjoy the bonus track I got called Gamma Compassion, which entrains a Gamma brainwave, and includes at a higher frequency just beyond detection, the Buddhist compassion manta. It's really powerful. In it, the sound are ocean waves coming ashore.

There is no possible way that these tracks do not cause a powerful effect.

I can't vouch for whatever you're using however. Hey why don't you try downloading the Holosync demo and put it on repeat for a half hour, that would work, and I believe would take you into Theta.

www.centerpointe.com...

[edit on 7-6-2009 by OmegaPoint]



posted on Jun, 7 2009 @ 03:35 AM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


miss_silver can produce one underneath beautiful classical music which will put you into a deep Theta trance for 20 minutes. She's working it up, and once she get's her hard drive fixed will be able to figure out a way to get it to you. Perhaps she might even add 10 minutes of Delta to the end of it, and your job aside from measuring yourself on the EEG will be to listen to the classical music, with eyes closed, and remain conscious throughout, which isn't too hard if you are sitting up straight.

Then you will owe myself and others a retraction.

[edit on 7-6-2009 by OmegaPoint]



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