Attn Techno-Shamens: Binaural Beat Brainwave Entrainment

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
I would personally like to put this defcon character here on the Delta track for one hour while measuring his brainwaves with an EEG, and ask him to report what he's experiencing at the same time.

Find someone who is actually experienced with meditation, even without the CDs, and you will get much better results.

The resonant frequencies that develop aren't the only thing that's important...

Meditation Gives Brain a Charge, Study Finds

By Marc Kaufman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, January 3, 2005; Page A05

Brain research is beginning to produce concrete evidence for something that Buddhist practitioners of meditation have maintained for centuries: Mental discipline and meditative practice can change the workings of the brain and allow people to achieve different levels of awareness.

...

Scientists used to believe the opposite -- that connections among brain nerve cells were fixed early in life and did not change in adulthood. But that assumption was disproved over the past decade with the help of advances in brain imaging and other techniques, and in its place, scientists have embraced the concept of ongoing brain development and "neuroplasticity."

Davidson says his newest results from the meditation study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in November, take the concept of neuroplasticity a step further by showing that mental training through meditation (and presumably other disciplines) can itself change the inner workings and circuitry of the brain.

Here is the summary of the technical experiment:

The Dalai Lama ultimately dispatched eight of his most accomplished practitioners to Davidson's lab to have them hooked up for electroencephalograph (EEG) testing and brain scanning. The Buddhist practitioners in the experiment had undergone training in the Tibetan Nyingmapa and Kagyupa traditions of meditation for an estimated 10,000 to 50,000 hours, over time periods of 15 to 40 years. As a control, 10 student volunteers with no previous meditation experience were also tested after one week of training.

The monks and volunteers were fitted with a net of 256 electrical sensors and asked to meditate for short periods. Thinking and other mental activity are known to produce slight, but detectable, bursts of electrical activity as large groupings of neurons send messages to each other, and that's what the sensors picked up. Davidson was especially interested in measuring gamma waves, some of the highest-frequency and most important electrical brain impulses.

Both groups were asked to meditate, specifically on unconditional compassion. Buddhist teaching describes that state, which is at the heart of the Dalai Lama's teaching, as the "unrestricted readiness and availability to help living beings." The researchers chose that focus because it does not require concentrating on particular objects, memories or images, and cultivates instead a transformed state of being.

Davidson said that the results unambiguously showed that meditation activated the trained minds of the monks in significantly different ways from those of the volunteers. Most important, the electrodes picked up much greater activation of fast-moving and unusually powerful gamma waves in the monks, and found that the movement of the waves through the brain was far better organized and coordinated than in the students. The meditation novices showed only a slight increase in gamma wave activity while meditating, but some of the monks produced gamma wave activity more powerful than any previously reported in a healthy person, Davidson said.

www.washingtonpost.com...

All the research indicates that binaural brainwave entrainment is a fact.

What's with this guy..?

And that cite you made regarding centerpointe was of a couple people who were not able to secure a refund for some reason, which is unfortunate, but it means nothing with respect to the validity of the technology itself.

Anyway, if you want to make a thread about your experience and knowledge as an EEG tech, go for it. This thread however it about meditation.

P.S. Keep citing more research bsbray11 if you could, in particular, EEG feeback showing sustained Alpha, Theta and even Delta in deep meditators, as well as evidence regarding the efficacy of binaural beat brainwave entrainment.

It will be interesting to see if he'll admit to having been in error -not likely

[edit on 4-6-2009 by OmegaPoint]

reply to post by OmegaPoint


hmmm, it could just be me but I'm pretty sure the words 'Techno' and 'Shaman' should NEVER appear in the same sentence

The last time I checked, I didn't see the tribe leader handing out glow sticks on the reservation.

reply to post by jackieps1975


Well you know what they say...
"If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with BS."

The Motto of the New Age Movement.

Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by OmegaPoint

 

Well if your having Delta Rhythm while your awake, I have some bad news for you:

High delta wave activity during the waking state is not common in healthy adults. However, multiple studies have indicated the presence of increased delta activity in adults during states of intoxication or delirium and in those diagnosed with dementia or schizophrenia.

You are not supposed to have Delta Wave as an adult, other then when you are asleep. Delta waves are also supposed to decline with age, starting in adolescence.

PS…. I run EEG, and Sleep EEG, and I am not buying that is anything other then snake oil.

Your also Not supposed to question your government either.....Because they don't want you too...But we do and it's for a good reason......

Originally posted by Unit541
reply to post by defcon5

 

Ahh, because nothing can enlighten us more as to what's really going on than a machine connected to a brain via some sticky electrodes...

In my opinion, the only thing more ludicrous than using a machine to determine what's going on in someone's head is putting any amount of faith in what another human interprets the machine-collected data to mean.

For some, it's just common sense. Others however, seem to have an inherent desire to reject the concept of "reality is perception". After all, any perceived benefit, is a benefit in and of itself.

For years, doctors tried, unsuccessfully to relieve me of my ailments. When I explained to them that I had found relief in several forms of "alternative" treatment, I was promptly told "that can't help you... if anything it's a placebo effect". Do I care if it's a "placebo" effect? Not in the least. I still benefit from the effect, whether it's chemical, mechanical, or simply suggestive.

This topic reminds me of the saying "The delusion of man is that reality is not an illusion".

In summation, what we perceive to be real, is real. Whether or not it's "real" to someone else is completely irrelevant. If someone fills their ears with tones and beats, and experiences some life improvement, who are you to tell them that it's not real. It's like sticking someone with a knife and telling them it doesn't cause them any discomfort, simply because you have a higher tolerance for pain.

Contrary to popular belief, reality is subjective.

Well stated truth my friend. Your post should have ended the argument. See, that's the problem with humanity. One person thinks they know what's better for another, and it cascades and cascades until you have all of the wonderful problems we are facing today.

reply to post by defcon5


Listen Mr EEG man...here it is.

I have epilepsy and have had grand mal seizures all my life. Until I was 17 they had me on dose’s of phenobarbital that would knock out a 300 pound man. I WAS ONLY 12 when they started! Still I had uncontrollable grand mal seizures that stopped my heart a few times; once they even pronounced me DEAD!
NOW I have had according to Kaisers record’s
55 EEG’s since the age of 11
52EKG’s
15 CT scans
28 Mri’s
and another 15 dye marked

I am above average IQ and have the skill’s to run scientific studies on a whim. So I decided to see what could be done other than an Implant device to help control my seizure’s.

NOW I started using the binaural beat therapy and guess what...I STOPPED HAVING SEVERE GRAND MAL SEIZURE’S...I am set to go back to UC Stanford’s Epilepsy Center soon to have serious testing done to see exactly what about the beat’s caused me to STOP having such severe seizure’s.( I was taken there as a teen and late teen to be tested so they know how bad it was already)
Once I stopped using them for a 1 and a ½ year period I started having them again. Now that I have started again they have stopped even faster! THEY WANT TO KNOW WHY....
Get ready for your book’s to be updated because even the EEG tech who did my last one said there where thing’s she just couldn’t explain and thought I was SLEEPING with my eye’s OPEN. Mind you I was coherent and talking the whole time! I even did complex math problems just to prove I was AWAKE!
There are so many thing’s about the human brain we have yet to discover, discounting something because it isn’t in your book’s is not only crass but by far is well below denying ignorance!

[edit on 4-6-2009 by xoxo stacie]

reply to post by xoxo stacie

Well if what you are posting is true, it still discounts nothing I have stated as obviously even the UC Stanford cannot understand why this supposedly works on you. The reason for this bafflements is that it is considered snake oil by anyone with experience in the field. Maybe your inducing some type of self hypnosis, maybe your the one in ten million special people who this works on, who knows. Let us know what they find out AFTER they run your new set of studies, I look forward to reading it. I am glad to hear that it works for you, but the reality is, is it actually the sounds that are causing the change.

Originally posted by defcon5
The reason for this bafflements is that it is considered snake oil by anyone with experience in the field.

The people that sell the best snake oil sold it to you before you had sense enough to know what was going on. Now all we're asking is, reconsider your position. Everyone should be willing to do this at all times, but unfortunately we know that the opposite is almost always the case, that people are afraid of new knowledge and understanding and cling defensively to old ideas as if they're mentally territorial.

Did you see the Washington Post article I just cited?

The "Washington Post," "University of Wisconsin," and "National Academy of Sciences" are all "authorities" that "normal" people respect academically. So obviously there is a schism in thought here that goes all the way up the ladder, and all you phony "experts" don't know what in the hell you are really all talking about. You just like tooting your own horn, because it's not so often that you see a thread that relates to your job around here, huh? So you want to make it fit, so you can tell us all these things about EEG machines since that's what you know about, right? I know, it's ok.

Maybe your inducing some type of self hypnosis, maybe your the one in ten million special people who this works on, who knows.

Or maybe you are just so stubborn that you don't even want to consider that you're wrong.

What xoxo stacie said fits in with the rest of what we are saying perfectly. And we are all talking about forms of meditation. You can't expect to learn everything from running an EEG machine on people all day.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by bsbray11
The people that sell the best snake oil sold it to you before you had sense enough to know what was going on.

Yeah, people with credentials like this:

About the Author
Sudhansu Chokroverty, MD, FRCP, FACP, Professor of Neurology, New York Medical College, Valhalla; Clinical Professor of Neurology, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, Piscataway, NJ; Associate Chairman of Neurology, Chairman of Neurophysiology, and Director, Center of Sleep Medicine, Saint Vincents Hospital and Medical Center, NY; Robert J. Thomas , MD, Harvard Medical School, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center; and Meeta Bhatt

As opposed to people like this:

Dr. Arthur Hastings, Ph.D

Communication, Northwestern University, 1962
M.A., Public address, Northwestern University, 1958
B.A., Speech and Drama, Tulane University, 1957. Phi Beta Kappa

In other words, people who have some clue of what they are talking about.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Now all we're asking is, reconsider your position. Everyone should be willing to do this at all times, but unfortunately we know that the opposite is almost always the case, that people are afraid of new knowledge and understanding and cling defensively to old ideas as if they're mentally territorial.

Or it could simply be personal experience, on top of the personal experience of other professionals, on top of training based on scientific facts.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Did you see the Washington Post article I just cited?

Neuroplasticity is something entirely different then changing your brainwaves through meditation. But of course, since you are an expert on everything neurological, you should know this as well.

See, Neuroplasticity has nothing to do with changing brainwaves, it has to do with growing new neuro-pathways and neurons. The brainwaves remain EXACTLY the same as any other humans brain.

The brain consists of nerve cells or neurons (and glial cells) which are interconnected, and learning may happen through changing of the strength of the connections between neurons, by adding or removing connections, or by adding new cells. "Plasticity" relates to learning by adding or removing connections, or adding cells.

As to meditations role in this, learning ANYTHING new will stimulate this growth, whether it be meditation, or the study of the color/texture of dog droppings.

I am sure that you knew this already though.

Originally posted by bsbray11
The "Washington Post," "University of Wisconsin," and "National Academy of Sciences" are all "authorities" that "normal" people respect academically. So obviously there is a schism in thought here that goes all the way up the ladder, and all you phony "experts" don't know what in the hell you are really all talking about.

WOW...
Considering that you did not even know what the article was talking about, and were entirely wrong about it... Talk about open mouth, insert foot. Eh?

That is, of course, what you get from educating yourself by doing google searches of the internet to try and win a debate, rather than REAL research.

Originally posted by bsbray11
You just like tooting your own horn, because it's not so often that you see a thread that relates to your job around here, huh?

Actually there are always sleep related threads on ATS. Additionally most threads on topics about nocturnal paranormal activity, also tend to be sleep related. So you once more prove that you are incorrect in your assumptions. Besides, I rather more enjoy posting on the topic of aviation. EEG, being my current profession, tends to bore me. I seem to recall that you are also an expert on all things about architectural and aeronautical engineering. All before having finished college with any real life experience. You should hurry up and cure cancer before you get old, and forget everything you know now.

PS:
You know what they say about making assumptions, don't you?

Originally posted by bsbray11
So you want to make it fit, so you can tell us all these things about EEG machines since that's what you know about, right? I know, it's ok.

I know about a lot of fields, I have not only been a professional in this field. I have worked in several others as well.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Or maybe you are just so stubborn that you don't even want to consider that you're wrong.

Or maybe I just know how poorly people perceive their mental state, and what the placebo effect is. See, since your brain is the thing that you perceive the real world through, how can you trust the information that you are receiving from it when you put it into any form of altered state.

Originally posted by bsbray11
You can't expect to learn everything from running an EEG machine on people all day.

You are correct.
For example, I did not learn everything I know about aviation from running EEG's, I learned that from working in the field of aviation. The only thing that I have learned from running EEG is how the brain works, and how poor people are at diagnosing themselves. Obviously something you have yet to learn.

[edit on 6/4/2009 by defcon5]

reply to post by OmegaPoint


I was interested in this at first, but according to your links, alot of the tones are 8hz and below...Almost no modern headphones(or speakers) can produce below 20hz(without spending less than $300). How can I listen to certain frequency's if the frequency response of the equipment can't even produce the sounds? It may work, but without specialized sound equipment this isn't available to the average person.

Your links also describes frequency cancellation by directing one tone(say 100Hz), and another tone(this time 108Hz)...and magicly the tones cancel all but 8Hz of the frequency. That is not how frequency cancellation even works!

reply to post by bsbray11


I don't think it matters what you present, the EEG tech knows all and is CERTAIN he's right, no matter what information is presented.

"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, and proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principal is, contempt, prior to investigation."
~ Herbert Spencer.

Quoted this before, but it's become increasingly more relevant as the thread has progressed.

reply to post by LordBaskettIV


I think that's the carrier frequency and the difference would be the frequency of the resulting brainwave, but I don't profess to be an expert on frequencies, but I can tell you that it works and is very powerful and effective. It makes you go DEEP into meditative states, without any effort or practice. Don't listen to the stubborn sceptic.

reply to post by LordBaskettIV


The frequencies that actually come out of the headphones are more like 100 Hz and 110 Hz simultaneously, for example. The 10 Hz difference causes a dissonant "beating" between the frequencies that your brain perceives.

reply to post by defcon5


Fine, you're right. Meditating is no different than examining the texture of feces. What can I say? You know better than me. Good luck with your life.

Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by xoxo stacie

 

Well if what you are posting is true, it still discounts nothing I have stated as obviously even the UC Stanford cannot understand why this supposedly works on you. The reason for this bafflements is that it is considered snake oil by anyone with experience in the field. Maybe your inducing some type of self hypnosis, maybe your the one in ten million special people who this works on, who knows. Let us know what they find out AFTER they run your new set of studies, I look forward to reading it. I am glad to hear that it works for you, but the reality is, is it actually the sounds that are causing the change.

For your information UC Stanford is THE NUMBER 1# hospital in the WORLD for treatment of epilepsy and brain surgery to name JUST TWO. People from all over the world come there for treatment and surgeries!.

THEY aren't BAFFLED they want to see how it works! If you really are a EEG tech you would KNOW that UC Stanford is the 1# hospital when it comes to new treatment's and finding's.
You would also know that at least HALF of their specialist's are the one's who write and contribute to the book's that taught you.

I may be mistaken, but haven't some of the greatest wisdom and spiritual insights eminated from meditative practices. I believe even Jesus was deeply involved in meditative contemplative prayer, and was reported to have prayed all night at times.

So why is an EEG tech, who has no experience in meditation, and who refuses to look at the research, even EEG research that's been done on people deep in meditation determined to derail the thread? Because he already took a position and a stance and cannot under any circumstances admit to having been in error..?

Furthermore, the brainwave patterns produced by binaural beat brainwave entrainment, these have been recorded by EEG machines and there's a ton of information out there supporting this fact.

And then some of us actually have the experience of the process itself and we KNOW that it produces a deep meditative state, without the years of practice typically required to reach such states.

Anyway, i suppose it's keeping the thread going, but I'm at a loss as to why someone, in the face of new and voluminous information, would not be willing to admit to having been in error?

reply to post by xoxo stacie


I know who UC Stanford is. I also know who the Stanford School of Sleep Medicine is. The Person who trained me was a clinical apps specialist who installed equipment there, and taught them how to use it. I do not discount what you claim, I simply stated that your claim did not discount mine either. As I said, I look forward to reading the information on what they find, because if it comes from them (as opposed to these other questionable sources, and incorrectly understood papers in this thread so far), I will believe it.

Now what I did say is that if they were that shocked about it, that should tell you what I am stating here is true. They are shocked about it because its not normal. Hopefully they will figure out what is going on, and write about it. It may end up being something completely different then what you perceive it to be however. Hence the fact they want to test it rather then just announce it works.

For example, another thing which is thought to work on some conditions is producing an electromagnetic field at certain frequencies near your brain (Transcranial magnetic stimulation ). Maybe that is what is really occurring here, and it has nothing to do with binaural stimulation itself, but the magnetic fields created by the headphones.

Transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) is a noninvasive method to excite neurons in the brain: weak electric currents are induced in the tissue by rapidly changing magnetic fields (electromagnetic induction). This way, brain activity can be triggered with minimal discomfort, and the functionality of the circuitry and connectivity of the brain can be studied.

A large number of studies with TMS and rTMS have been conducted for a variety of neurological and psychiatric conditions but few have been confirmed and most show very modest effects, if any. Some conditions which have been reported to be responsive to TMS-based therapy are:
Stroke
Nonfluent aphasia [9]
Tinnitus[10]
Parkinson’s Disease
Dystonia
Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis
Epilepsy
Migraine[11]
Dysphasia
Hemispatial neglect
Major depression (rTMS therapy for drug-resistant depression has been approved by Health Canada for clinical delivery since 2002).
Phantom limb
Chronic pain
Obsessive-compulsive disorder
Auditory Hallucinations associated with Schizoaffective Disorders
Fibromyalgia

LordBucket brings up another valid point on this, which had not even occurred to me, but now he mentions it, its true. I always check the frequency range on headphones or speakers when I buy them, because I hate it when they sound “tinny”, and he is correct that they will not even output sound in the frequency range that they claim this works within. With this in mind, then how is this supposed to be working?


[edit on 6/5/2009 by defcon5]

For the last time, there IS such a thing as binaural beat brainwave entrainment, and it is the tone differential which is responsible for the frequency of the brainwave pattern.

DO THE RESEARCH, without assuming anything, and without any contempt prior to investigation.

We can post the studies which prove it, but frankly, this is getting really tiring.

This thread is about deep meditation induced by binaural beat brainwave entrainment.

You say it doesn't exist, you ASSUME that, but you are WRONG!

I suppose I'm not as advanced in my practice as I ought to be, by getting so annoyed, but it's just down right annoying!

This is a perfect example of something I most definitely need and want to give up. The NEED TO BE RIGHT AT ALL COST! It's very sad..

[edit on 5-6-2009 by OmegaPoint]

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
Furthermore, the brainwave patterns produced by binaural beat brainwave entrainment, these have been recorded by EEG machines and there's a ton of information out there supporting this fact.

Anyway, i suppose it's keeping the thread going, but I'm at a loss as to why someone, in the face of new and voluminous information, would not be willing to admit to having been in error?

I have yet to see A) an EEG recording of this on any of those linked sites, or B) any documentation from a RELIABLE source that it works. What I have seen is a bunch of links to UNRELIABLE sources written by people with Phd's in things such as Drama or Communication, and a bunch of misunderstood reports about things such as Brain Plasticity which has nothing to do with the brainwaves themselves. If there was a reliable report, from a credible resource, which stated that this worked to induce a substantial change in the brainwave frequency, I missed it. Obviously if this is so well documented to work then Stanford would not be interested in XOXOStacies case, now would they?

I am very Leary of people who run around calling themselves Doctors in the Medical field, but who are not actual MD's. I have seen credible Medical people burned by people such as these in the real world, only to find out later that the supposed Doctor had a Phd in Theology from a Diploma Mill. A lot of these fraudulent people like to operate in the fringe borders of things such as Neurology and Sleep Medicine. Both of these areas are very easy to fool people in as the results are often not readily apparent and based on peoples askew perceptions. As soon as you see anything that comes from a DR with a Phd behind his name rather then a MD, and he is affiliated with some Alternative University or Organization, watch out! For example, I would estimate that the majority of the products that are out there claiming to help you sleep do nothing of the sort.

Heck, I have a neat electrode tester at work, has a cool looking LED bar on it. How much you want to bet that if I stuck two electrodes in that tester and on someones chin, then told them to meditate until that bar decreased (the resistance would decrease as the muscle in their chin did), that they would come out telling me about all the fantastic effect they felt from meditating with that machine? Penn and Teller did a similar, though sillier, test on their show BS, and people still swore it worked.