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Attn Techno-Shamens: Binaural Beat Brainwave Entrainment

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posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by Boatphone
There is a very interesting thread dealing with Binaural Beat Brainwave Entrainment and its possible ill effects, very strange.

Check it out: www.abovetopsecret.com...

- Boat



Thank you Boat for bringing this thread to attention, just finished reading it.


I am sorry to hear what happened to Blue, most unfortunate for this user. Maybe he/she took it a bit much to heart for this is meta music meant to listen on a good ole stereo system while doing tasks, writing and not meant to be an exercise which requires the listener to lie down and use headphones.


This being said, I must admit that after listening to some Hemi Sync, I am not super sharp when the exercise is done and it takes some hour or 2 before being fully awake and alert again depending on the exercise. Unfortunately, a lot of people just think that it is brainwave fun when there should be in my honest opinion more warnings and some guideline/guide when meddling with those audio binaural beats meaning, one cannot expect to be super sharp after listening to theta waves and come out of it fully awake without easement the coming out of theta waves with some beta, then some alpha.

Also, the users hopefully are made aware that those waves are meant to alter your brainwaves ie forcing your brain with sounds to achieve those states as compared to years of serious meditation. For some people, it is a breeze to deal with forcing a state of mind/consciousness, for others, as posted previously with the thread you linked, it just messes up with their natural brain balance even tho the surprise was great to know that someone had such an adverse reaction to a Monroe music CD.

The way I see it, it would be like to expose someone to ghostly apparitions, paranormal phenomenons without preparing them properly, same goes with altering your brainwaves with binaural beats, if you are not willing and ready, it can change you, sometimes, for a long time if you are not properly prepped and prepared for it and what to expect and even if it is the case, it can be quite unsettling for certain individuals.




posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 06:41 PM
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The Holosync program that I've been using eases you into it step by step. Even with the initial Awakening Prologue, you only listen to the first track called "The Dive" at one half hour sessions for the 1st 14 days, before adding the second track, called "Emmersion", extending the session to an hour. The Dive moves you into Alpha then Theta, and at the very end, to Delta, then Emmersion holds the listener in Delta.

If you plunge in too fast, or are using one with a lower carrier frequency, the impact can be overwhelming and it can make a person sick for a while.

In the mystical meditative tradition, the same thing would often happen to students who first encounter the Yogi master, who might say touch them on the forehead, producing a spontaneous kundalini awakening, and then they would need to spend some time with the aid of a helper to get over the experience and come back to reality.

So if you're using a binaural beat generator like that Gnaural, start slow, and start with tracks which move and hold you in first Alpha, then after some time, say after many days or weeks, move to Theta, and only after making the adjustments to the stimulous, shift to a Delta producer. Even when moving into Delta, don't go directly there, but instead move successively from Alpha, to Theta first.

What that person experienced was an overload and an overwhelm because the track they used was too powerful for a beginner. This is why I prefer to use the Holosync Program (even though it costs money), because it's a program which has been tried and tested over the years by many 1000's of users, and because it comes with a lot of support material to help you understand the process fully and what to expect. And personally I don't mind investing in my brain and psycho-spiritual development.

The results, when used wisely and in a gradual successive manner, are truly astonishing. And I understand the scepticism towards it, because it seems too good to be true - meditate like a Zen master at the touch of a button? Yeah right! But it really does work.

[edit on 3-6-2009 by OmegaPoint]



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 11:00 PM
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Originally posted by Unit541
Ahh, because nothing can enlighten us more as to what's really going on than a machine connected to a brain via some sticky electrodes...

Correct.
An EEG machine is really nothing more then a series of Oscilloscopes hooked to amplifiers, which read the electrical impulses in the brain. Based on their shape, frequency, and amplitude we can determine multiple things. So, are you saying that an Oscilloscope is useless in reading electrical circuits as well?


Originally posted by Unit541
In my opinion, the only thing more ludicrous than using a machine to determine what's going on in someone's head is putting any amount of faith in what another human interprets the machine-collected data to mean.

This shows how little you know about the subject we are discussing then. Its all about reading electrical impulses.


Originally posted by Unit541
For years, doctors tried, unsuccessfully to relieve me of my ailments. When I explained to them that I had found relief in several forms of "alternative" treatment, I was promptly told "that can't help you... if anything it's a placebo effect". Do I care if it's a "placebo" effect? Not in the least. I still benefit from the effect, whether it's chemical, mechanical, or simply suggestive.

Your ailments could very well have been in your head to begin with, that does happen. Beyond that, medicine is not always completely black and white, it’s an art, hence the term medical “practice”. Sometimes its difficult to find the reason for an ailment because it could be multiple issues, or they could be purely psychosomatic, yet cause real physical pain (depression is known to cause pain for example, yet is strictly psychological).


Originally posted by Unit541
In summation, what we perceive to be real, is real. Whether or not it's "real" to someone else is completely irrelevant. If someone fills their ears with tones and beats, and experiences some life improvement, who are you to tell them that it's not real.

EEG is a pretty black and white area, its basically all electronics. Meaning that someone brain frequency is this or that, there is no faking it one way or the other. There are a few stages that are difficult to tell apart from each other, but we use additional readings to separate those as well.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by miss_silver
Also, the users hopefully are made aware that those waves are meant to alter your brainwaves ie forcing your brain with sounds to achieve those states as compared to years of serious meditation. For some people, it is a breeze to deal with forcing a state of mind/consciousness, for others, as posted previously with the thread you linked, it just messes up with their natural brain balance


If they really don't like it, then obviously they should stay away from it, but if it's just mildly uncomfortable, a little restlessness or something, I think we should keep playing with it and see what exactly the problem is. Because I suspect it's the ADHD-like symptoms except that they affect every single person more or less. But how to resolve these issues is the big help.

Say for instance someone feels more "hazy," maybe even lazy, like they've been asleep or something. I think we might find the problem is that we aren't yet able to be consciously aware within those states (at least as much as our alpha state). To integrate all the subconscious energy we're trying to unlock, requires a massive effort of mindfulness. Esoteric schools of thought greatly benefit this pursuit, and ultimately they share a very similar goal anyway. Once we are able to remain mentally stimulated and aware in these states, we must find something to be interested in. And that's the opening of Pandora's box, because you can be very much more mentally capable in these states if you can learn to handle the energies associated with them.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by bsbray11]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 12:57 AM
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The evolutionary growth process of increasing conscious awareness with regular daily use of brainwave entrainment

There are sometimes certain unpleasant effects inherent in the process and people need to be aware of them.

I've learned through my program to look at it all from an evolutionary perspective. Yes, there is discomfort at times, which is to be expected, since we're raising up from the depths of the unconscious otherwise locked away repressed material or to put it blunty, hard caked # we didn't want to ever look at or have to deal with. Interestingly, it doesn't even surface in a form you can analyze, though you might have wild and wacky dreams, and sometimes feel certain unwanted emotional feelings - the key being to recognize that this is part of the process of becoming increasingly aware, and to simply observe it in a non-resistant way, distinguish it, and in the process, diminish any discomfort.

Furthermore, there is a stimulous being placed on the brain with binaural beat brainwave entrainment, creating new neural connections and increased left/right hemisphere synchrony. Like a workout at the gym, this push provokes evolutionary change in the form of new structures or new order from chaos (increased complexity, whereby the brain is a dissipative system - see Prigogine's work for more on this), which can be stressful, and that's the whole point (to provoke evolutionary change or transformation in conscious awareness) - but interestingly, the brain, in response to the simulous, releases a variety of hormones, endorphins and neurotransmitters, to facilitate the growth of new structures, while anesthetizing the organism to an extent and these all have VERY positive benefits and effects.

Then, once a certain threshold is reached, one's internal "map of reality" (set of viewpoints) or certain elements of who you think you are, or are afraid to be, or are not, begins to reach a point or a limit whereby it can no longer sustain itself, to the degree that it is not helpful or is out of alignment with what is most congruent with reality and that which best serves the whole person, and so it eventually destablizes, and then finally falls apart (it, not the observing self) - and then, as if by magic, is immediately replaced with a whole new structure and a new map which is more workable by many many orders of magnitude. It's like a quantum leap in awareness, and then any discomfort one may have experienced (change doesn't always come without a little discomfort), turns to peace and joy, happiness, and more freedom, power and greater success and functioning - and then the process will repeat itself.

But this (new order from chaos) is an entirely natural process - like a seed which falls apart at the moment of germination of new life. And the brain and central nervous system of the human being, being a dissipative complex structure, can handle any amount of these cycles of "near death and resurrection" to use a certain spiritual analogy. In other words, the entropy is dissipated into the environment or the larger system, which presumably is the universe itself, and how it does it, is still a mystery.

This is how I've come to understand it - that it's not just about having a meditative experience and getting a little more peace - done regularly, it produces an evolutionary growth process and a series of quantum leaps in increasing self-other-environment, conscious awareness, and increased interconnectedness, and overall well being, even equanimity.

This is why I was looking for a mutual support partner, to share in the journey and the evolutionary process.

It amounts to an exploration of Buddha enlightened conscious awareness and experience, perhaps ultimately going as far or even farther than the master since we are not trying to escape into Nirvanna nor eliminate all suffering, because there's always something to do and create and so we're generally not doing this to try to kill off desire or our capacity for accomplishment, a prerequisit to more successful living and fulfillment, unless you want to become a Buddhist monk and live in poverty (not that there's anything wrong with that either!).


Therefore, I do not believe that binaural beat brainwave entrainment is like some cool toy to be played with experimentally. No, it's something you want to research and understand before embarking upon, or you might have nothing but one bad trip or bad experience with it, like that person referenced ealier who tried the Hemisync CD once and had a bad reaction to it (because he didn't understand it and was in resistence to the types of changes it evokes or provokes).

That said, the benefits realized at any stage, are permament, and you can stop at any time with no ill effects. In fact, there is no record of anyone having been permamently harmed by it. Nevertheless, it's serious business, since we're dealing here with the human brain and nervous system, as well as one's psychological and spiritual composition or constitution.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by OmegaPoint]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 01:23 AM
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Hit me up, I would love to share some of my music with everyone.

I have dabbled it Binaural beats, but I dare not subject any of you to my "homemade" beats, might be dangerous. However I have made some good trance and techno that is normal music you would find at the club.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 02:03 AM
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moved

[edit on 4-6-2009 by OmegaPoint]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 02:43 AM
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Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
Thanks for validating the point I made on the first page. The technician noticed something "unusual" in my EEG and therefore questioned me as to whether or not I was sleeping.

What would someone who has seen perhaps hundreds or thousands of EEG readings see in mine to lead them to that interpretation?


It could be multiple things, without seeing the raw data, its impossible to tell. I will give some examples of things that can make it difficult to determine whether a person is awake or asleep though.

The differences in brainwaves between awake, stage one, and REM are very subtle, and we have to determine them based also on muscle tone and eye movements. One of the reasons we look at Alpha (why we attach to the occipital lobe), is to help determine when the person transitions from being awake to stage one sleep. Signs of this are slight slowing in the frequency of the waves, decrease in muscle tone, rolling eyes, and dropping out of the alpha rhythm.

One of the things I find funny in these so call expert sites so far, is that their equipment is going to bring out “Brainwaves like people have in Dream Sleep”
… Well, REM Sleep, which is when you dream, has brainwaves that are so similar in appearance to that of Awake that we are required to use eyes and muscle tone to differentiate between REM and Awake. The only difference between the appearance of the brainwaves in REM is the occasional appearance of “Sawtooth Waves”. This similarity is why REM is called Paradoxical…


During REM, the activity of the brain's neurons is quite similar to that during waking hours; for this reason, the sleep stage may be called paradoxical sleep. This means that there are no dominating brain waves during REM sleep.


Medications that a person takes can also effect not only the brain waves, but also the other two areas we monitor to tell the difference between some stages. Namely, eye movements, and muscle tone. Relaxants can alter muscle tone, and anti-depressants can give false eye movements similar to REM (We call this Prozac Eyes). Certain medications can increase Slow Wave sleep, suppress REM sleep, or do other funny things to the brainwaves.

Additionally there is the hook-up. If the hook-up was not done well, there can be a lot of interference from outside sources. Wires that are closely bundled together can induce currants in other nearby wires if they have high enough amplitude signals running through them. 60 cycle noise from fans, motors, TV’s, Cell phones, can all interfere with the EEG and make it difficult to read at times. A good hook-up and great impedances is required to minimize this outside interference.

Patient movement, sweating, and excessive muscle tone also can make it difficult to read the waves. If a patient is moving excessively, the test becomes unreadable. Sweating causes electrode rolling and popping. A patient being too tense can cause the EEG to look like its full of 60 cycle noise, and again be unreadable. If you cannot read the EEG at the time, you cannot determine if the patient is awake or not.

The most likely thing though, is Alpha Intrusion. Alpha intrusion means that the alpha waves that are supposed to drop out show up in other stages of sleep. This can be due to pain, stress, and other factors



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 03:08 AM
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reply to post by Aeons
 




Respiratory and Arousal Responses to Acoustic Stimulation

Conclusions: We conclude that transient EEG arousal may be repeatedly evoked from nonrapid eye movement sleep by transient acoustic stimulation in normal sleepers. This sensory stimulation is associated with augmented ventilation, a response that is not significantly affected by inspired hypercapnia or the presence of generalized EEG arousal..

This has nothing to do with altering brainwaves, it has to do with using sound to cause arousals in the treatment of sleep apnea. Yeah, if I stand outside your door and occasionally beat a drum while you are asleep, you’ll wake up.



(3) there was no interaction between stimulus type and the size of the contralaterality effect; (4) there was no indication of binaural summation, rather we found stronger hemodynamic responses to the sum of both monaural stimulations (right and left ear) than to binaural stimulation in all auditory areas; (5) there were generally stronger hemodynamic responses to CV syllables than to tones in the posterior STG, while the hemodynamic responses to tones were stronger in the anterior part of the STG (temporal pole); and finally (6) there was no general difference in terms of hemodynamic response in the auditory cortex between the two groups when receiving either loudness-matched or non-loudness-matched monaural stimulation. These findings are discussed in the context of the underlying neurophysiological mechanisms, the peculiarities of functional fMRI, and the direct access and callosal relay models of hemispheric lateralization.

I cannot access the rest of the article, but I think this pretty much sums up what I have been saying about these brain inducing sounds and such:
“there was no indication of binaural summation, rather we found stronger hemodynamic responses to the sum of both monaural stimulations than to binaural stimulation in all auditory areas”

Translation… Binaural stimulation did squat.

This one made me laugh:


Siberian Branch, Russian Academy of Medical Sciences,

How bad of a scientist do you have to be to get sent to the Siberian branch of the Russian Science Institute? Well it seems to me that the Russian Academy of Science has had other members who have fallen under the heading “Quack” out here in the real world. One person I recall reading about on ATS not to far back, if I can recall who he was I’ll post it.

It’s a moot point though as I cannot access the entire articles from any of those links. Additionally many are simply about meditation in general, when the topic here is Binaural Stimulation, and my original argument that you a normal human does not have Slow Wave while awake.


As far as I can tell you’re the one who is bring the apples into the conversation about oranges to begin with…



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 03:39 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
It's hilarious to me that you are here trying to debunk something from some technical expertise that I and many others have experienced personally and know beyond any doubt, similarly to how you think YOU know beyond any doubt.

Without being hooked up to an EEG machine, how do you know your actually altering your brainwaves, and not just inducing a state of drowsiness or literally dosing off?

We see it time and again here in the lab, people who think they are awake but they are really in a stage of level 1 sleep. Often people who think they have insomnia have underlying apnea, but think they don’t because they just lay there awake for hours, in their opinion. When we stick them on a polygraph we find out that they are really dosing off, but repeatedly waking up due to the underlying apnea.


Originally posted by bsbray11
Common to schizophrenics, maybe also to geniuses. If not then I'll gladly go with being schizophrenic, being much more at peace and aware of my surroundings in meditation states than while I am in my more mundane and trivial state of alpha awareness.

That was in reference to people claiming they go into Slow Wave while awake. Do you know for a fact that you are going into Slow Wave? If so how? Please post the raw data collected showing your muscle tone, and brainwaves. A couple of Epochs should suffice.


Originally posted by bsbray11
You probably don't even meditate at all.

You would be correct there. However the topic was never about meditation or hypnosis (someone else was trying to throw that into the mix, then accuse me of mixing apples and oranges), it was about using this noise generating machine to go into “Dream Sleep”, “Induce Alpha”, or “Induce Delta” brain waves.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 09:38 AM
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It's interesting to me how many different views are being taken on this subject. hemispherical synchronization is a proven scientific fact, and it is the base physical goal of any binaural experience. Those who are doubting, i urge you to find and download "hemi-sync meditation" by Dr. Robert Monroe, use it, and see for yourself.
Which enters another interesting thing i found, his name didnt even come up on this thread. As the inventor of Binaural sounds, and the first to discover their effects on human brainwave activity, i should think his name would be prevalent in all threads such as this. Check out www.monroeinstitute.com if you don't believe me.
And, as this is my first post to ATS, i am going to include my favorite set of clips on this post, that you all might watch it with an open mind and understand that he is not the only person to have experienced what he speaks of.



[edit on 4-6-2009 by Nysticles]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Without being hooked up to an EEG machine, how do you know your actually altering your brainwaves, and not just inducing a state of drowsiness or literally dosing off?


Because I'm not drowsy and I don't doze off?

Excuse me for pointing out the obvious but becoming drowsy or dozing off WOULD be an alteration of my brainwaves. Even thinking a thought is an alteration, taking a breath or feeling a certain mood.


We see it time and again here in the lab, people who think they are awake but they are really in a stage of level 1 sleep.


Not trying to be mean but honestly the people that come to your lab are probably just as ignorant about meditation and naturally-induced altered states as you are. Not many people in the West practice this stuff regularly.



Originally posted by bsbray11
You probably don't even meditate at all.

You would be correct there. However the topic was never about meditation or hypnosis (someone else was trying to throw that into the mix, then accuse me of mixing apples and oranges), it was about using this noise generating machine to go into “Dream Sleep”, “Induce Alpha”, or “Induce Delta” brain waves.


Why would someone want to alter their brainwaves? As you use your own brainwaves to think about this, commandeered by your overblown sense of worth in this thread, you should realize once again that when it comes to meditation, you have no idea what we're talking about.

This is ALL about meditation. It isn't other people trying to change the topic, it's YOU being completely ignorant of what you're talking about. If you understood the potential here YOU would be talking about meditation too.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 11:23 AM
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A couple quotes from this link: www.centerpointe.com...

Candace Pert, National Institute of Mental Health:


There’s a revolution going on. There used to be two systems of knowledge: hard science—chemistry, physics, biophysics—on the one hand, and, on the other, a system of knowledge that included ethology, psychology, and psychiatry. And now it’s as if a lightning bolt had connected the two. It’s all one system neuroscience...The present era in neuroscience is comparable to the time when Louis Pasteur first found out that germs cause disease. (8)



John Kiebeskind, UCLA neurophysiologist:


"It’s difficult to try to responsibly convey some sense of excitement about what’s going on...You find yourself sounding like people you don’t respect. You try to be more conservative and not say such wild and intriguing things, but damn! The field is wild and intriguing. It’s hard to avoid talking that way...We are at a frontier, and it’s a terribly exciting time to be in this line of work" (7).


Robert Cosgrove Jr., Ph.D., M.D.:


... with appropriately selected stimulation protocols [have] been observed by us to be an excellent neuro-pathway exerciser. As such we believe it has great potential for use in promoting optimal cerebral performance... Furthermore, the long-term effects of regular use... on maintaining and improving cerebral performance throughout life and possibly delaying for decades the deterioration of the brain traditionally associated with aging is very exciting. (11)




Of course these people are all obviously very jaded would be cynical of the topic here as well. I'm sure these people are all familiar with EEG machines as well so they obviously also know everything worth knowing and feel as though there is not much else to learn or understand about the human brain.


Really, what can you say? What can you say to someone ignorant of how much changes when you begin to master your own brain? And what good is it to argue with anyone who is not only already convinced there is nothing to this, but simply uses the opportunity to keep bringing up his trivial job as if anyone gives a damn. I'm an electronics major and I play with oscilloscopes all the time, hooked to all sorts of circuits and producing all sorts of signals. Whoopty doo! That doesn't make me a Nobel laureate, a Ph.D. or anyone who understands what in the hell is really going on inside that circuit to make it function as it does. NO ONE fully understands it. And people know EVEN LESS about our actual brains.

To anyone who will convince themselves they already know everything worth knowing, I couldn't wish anything worse upon than what they already do to themselves. To be stagnate is to die, and much more humiliating a death when you are wrongly convinced that you are full of life.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by Nysticles
"hemi-sync meditation" by Dr. Robert Monroe

You guys are too easy with this stuff...
Or are there just this many gullible people out there?


Robert Allan Monroe (October 30, 1915–March 17, 1995) was an advertising executive from Virginia who became known for his research into altered consciousness.


Another one of these supposed Dr's who fall into the definition of “Quack”...


Quack Word #3: 'Doctor'
1. Swap Subjects
You could have mistakenly done all the hard work above only to find out that being a geologist does not make as much money a selling bucket loads of useless vitamin pills. I've written about this before. Even though you are now a nutritional 'expert' there is no need to make it clear that your PhD was in geology, economics or bongo playing. Flaunt those letters after your name!


This man is no more qualified to consider himself a medical expert then my big toe is.
[sarcasm]
BTW Dr. Defcon's big toe (PHD) is selling a new system that will allow you to talk to God, have out of body experiences, bring about world peace, interact with aliens, and whiten your teeth, if you're interested. DVD's, Books, and CD's will ensue shortly hereafter. Send a U2U, and three payments of $99.95 if you interested. [/sarcasm]

God Almighty PT Barnum had it right!
“There is a sucker born every minute”



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 01:43 PM
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My brother spent a couple of hundred bucks on CDs for all different types of stimulation. Creative, Focus, Meditative, Sleep, Even headache relief.

He downloaded them to his MP3, and now I have the CDs. I haven't tried them yet. I will experiment tonight and report back.



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by Aeons
reply to post by defcon5
 


No, it doesn't. You can't argue that oranges aren't citrus by discussing apples.

But to make it easier on you to do as I've suggested - here you go.

scholar.google.ca...

scholar.google.ca...

scholar.google.ca...

[edit on 2009/6/3 by Aeons]


Thanks for posting that. Makes it pretty clear regarding some of the assumptions that were being made.


Indeed, this is a thread about deep meditative states induced via binaural beat brainwave entrainment, not about naturally occuring brainwave patterns by people who are not meditating.

I would personally like to put this defcon character here on the Delta track for one hour while measuring his brainwaves with an EEG, and ask him to report what he's experiencing at the same time. That would alter his view.

[edit on 4-6-2009 by OmegaPoint]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
Because I'm not drowsy and I don't doze off?

The folks who think they have insomnia rather then sleep apnea swear to the same thing.


Originally posted by bsbray11
Excuse me for pointing out the obvious but becoming drowsy or dozing off WOULD be an alteration of my brainwaves.


If you want to meditate or pay someone for that, then be my guest.


Originally posted by bsbray11
Even thinking a thought is an alteration, taking a breath or feeling a certain mood.

Nope, not a significant one in most cases.


Originally posted by bsbray11
Not trying to be mean but honestly the people that come to your lab are probably just as ignorant about meditation and naturally-induced altered states as you are. Not many people in the West practice this stuff regularly.

Yes, and in the west we don't believe that banshee's are attacking our villages because someone died.
Scientific facts VS. Superstitions.
Your point is?


Originally posted by bsbray11
you have no idea what we're talking about.

When it comes to brainwaves, I do.



Centerpointe Research Rip Off Scam

This book is a pontification of Centerpointe Research's Holosync Program. Consider it one long testimonial rather than fact based information. Information in this book focuses solely on anecdotal reports for so-called Holosync Program users. Those who have dealings with Centerpointe have found them to fall into the category of internet rip off companies.There are extremely negative reports on the following sites: The Rip Off Report, Better Business Bureau of Oregon. It seems that this company, and it's pundit Bill Harris are dishonest, do not stand by their "satisfaction guaranteed" policy or cliams of company integrity.
Buyer Beware. It is claimed one will "meditate like a Zen monk" with this program, then when customers don't get the results promised, it is claimed that often "nothing happens...and that's ok, that's how the program is". One must marvel at the audacity of this company to sell absolutely nothing to it's customers. Please file a report with the Oregon Stae Attorney General and The Federal Trade Commission if you have been victimized by this company.


Centerpointe Research Institute: Rip-Off Report



[Further Sarcasm]
Oh, BTW, Dr Defcon's Big Toe is considering opening "Dr. Defcon's Big Toe University of Holistic Nonsense (inc.)(tm.)(Asc.)(Rsvp.)(Rip.)(Wtf.)”, enroll soon classes are limited. The director, president, and professor will of course be self appointed.
[/further sarcasm]



[edit on 6/4/2009 by defcon5]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 02:17 PM
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What was the point of moving your SAME EXACT POST from here:
reply to post by OmegaPoint
 


Originally posted by OmegaPoint
moved

[edit on 4-6-2009 by OmegaPoint]


To here...

reply to post by OmegaPoint
 



Its no more valid after it was debunked before it was debunked...
Or do you just figure that it will confuse people into believing this crap is credible?



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by OmegaPoint
I would personally like to put this defcon character here on the Delta track for one hour while measuring his brainwaves with an EEG, and ask him to report what he's experiencing at the same time. That would alter his view.


I have access to the EEG Machine, and I will even sacrifice a weekend day to do it...
You bring your tapes.
Send me a U2U if you want to try it.
Of course it has to be in my area as that is not portable equipment (wiring is run through the ceilings).



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by bsbray11
Because I'm not drowsy and I don't doze off?

The folks who think they have insomnia rather then sleep apnea swear to the same thing.


I'm not talking about a sleeping disorder, my friend.


If you want to meditate or pay someone for that, then be my guest.


Personally, I download them from torrent websites and so I don't have to pay. More power to me, huh?



Even thinking a thought is an alteration, taking a breath or feeling a certain mood.

Nope, not a significant one in most cases.


Not significant to you, lol. I'm sorry.


Yes, and in the west we don't believe that banshee's are attacking our villages because someone died.


Well maybe you should!


Scientific facts VS. Superstitions.
Your point is?


Science is also superstition; it's just the one YOU believe in.



Originally posted by bsbray11
you have no idea what we're talking about.

When it comes to brainwaves, I do.


If you have convinced yourself you know all there is to know about your brain because of your job, you're bound to making yourself permanently ignorant of all the things you never learned or are still being learned, whether you actually know what you are talking about or not.

You are saying some studies showed there is no evidence saying such or such. That argument is automatically out of the water for me because I am my own living proof of the effects of proper meditation, and the effects are potentially limitless imo. A lot of people actually end up dedicating their lives to it, while all the people you associate with, yourself included, that you think are so mentally solid, would become extremely bored and uncomfortable if you were to sit in the same position for so many hours a day. You have nothing interesting going on within your own heads that can command your attention in such a way, which probably also explains why you run an EEG machine instead of being a musician, architect, etc., though I am very sorry to have to be the one to tell you. It doesn't even matter if you use the totality of your mind professionally, just to have access to it in the first place is the only thing that's really valuable because of the possibilities it unlocks to you.

To you, people are just sitting around with their eyes closed, doing nothing, right? If you don't understand meditation, you can't relate to anything I say. Why don't you ask me things about meditation to try to understand it better first? Or will you just shrug it off as something you don't need to know, because you already know everything?



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