The Conspiracy to Keep Christians Dumb.

reply to post by open_eyeballs


Of course there are other ideas about the "return of Christ" as an example, but those views are formed not from simply looking at the Word but have been "manipulated" by other extra Biblical opinions. I look at the Bible from a simple point of view. There are books that are widely symbolic in their text such as "Revelations" then there are others that are clear and plain in their words such as the Gospels. You have to take all verses in context, with that you will see that Christ wasn't speaking in the symbolic but in the "matter of fact" language that is prevelant through out the Gospels. It then is up to the reader to make more of something if he or she so chooses.

reply to post by open_eyeballs

Im totally confused. Are you saying the Bible says there is a physical place and that Jesus will return in the clouds or are you saying it does not say that? They are metaphors or they are meant to be interpreted literaly?

The Bible literally does tell us that Jesus will descend from the clouds, Revelation 19.11 (ESV):

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.

When you couple this, and the following verses, with the description of Jesus in other passages in Revelation [and the New Testament], it's clear that this is Jesus.

The Bible does tell us that there is one specific place that Jesus returns to as well, Acts 1.10-12:

And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven. Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away.

This couples with other verses from the Old Testament make it clear that the Messiah, who is Jesus Christ, will return to the Mount of Olives.

Also, it's not that Jesus returns and that's it. There are things that he accomplishes before history is wrapped up.

reply to post by Rockstrongo37

There are books that are widely symbolic in their text such as "Revelations" then there are others that are clear and plain in their words such as the Gospels.

It's true that Revelation is symbolic. It should be noted though that Revelation is "Apocalyptic Literature", and therefore uses symbols to communicate an absolute truth.

I am a Christian but when I watch TBN and a day of preaching won't pass without a single mention of MONEY.

Then something's terribly wrong. Becoming a millionaire isn't what Christianity is all about, I even find it sick to use those lines to attract people into a religion that's not about money

Christians from the word Christ. How did Christ want you to manage your money and wealth? Give it to the poor!

What you are talking about is those who make themselves into authority, and then tell people what to accept, rather than how to understand.

As the person then lacks understanding, they are then opened up to manipulation and can be used to do the bidding of others. All you have to do is present things in a certain way, and the person who accepts and doesn't understand will just accept that as well. Present things as though the other side is evil and justify your own actions as being good because you are fighting the "evil doers" and they follow.

And it's not even a religion only thing, it's in all things where power is concerned. Politics is the same way.

I'm not a christian, I think christianity is about accepting, and Jesus was about understanding. I think Jesus was telling the truth and knew things most people don't even know to question in the first place. It doesn't matter to me if he is real or not, what is attributed to him as having said and done is truth. But I do not find it difficult to believe a man existed that gave people such understandings.

If you accept, then you will not understand. If someone just told you 1+1=2 over and over, and you accepted it, then it doesn't mean you know how to add. When you understand, then you know how to add. That is the difference. Christianity teaches people 1+1=2, which is in itself true, but they do not teach people how to add or give understanding. When you know how to add, then you know that yes 1+1=2 is true, but it is just a single expression of the truth.


Notice the use of accept and understand in the chapter below. Those who accept do not understand. It's the difference between listening and hearing as well. "Let those with ears hear", it's not like people were walking around without ears.

Psalm 82

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

[edit on 3-6-2009 by badmedia]

To the OP: You say that the Catholic Church is at the root of it all, but all of those examples you described in your original post are evangelical or charismatic. How does that work?

Sure, the Catholic Chruch has historically been seen to grasp and maintain power over the masses, but I don't see their presence in the modern age as being anywhere near as prolific as some of the more "enthusiastic" Protestant denominations. Just the odd statement from the Pope, really.

I would just like to add my 2 cents in here if i may.
I was raised in a very christian community, one of those small towns where you have a different Roman Catholic church for each ethnicity, like 1 for Italians, 1 for Polish, 1 for Irish, and so on adn so on.... Like you see in creepy horror movies. lol. i went to catholic school for 13 years K-12. I no longer call myself a catholic, or a christian.

What i have learned is that mostly all reigons are based on some entity controlling its masive amount of followers based on some fear of being damned to a Hellish eternity for not following its rules. Now we have laws and justice systems to keep a nations in order.

Second is that, no bible, of any kind, should ever be taken for its literal translation. Sure it may be the word of a god, but it was still writen by humans, which makes it open for teh writers own imagination

Now, on my own thoughts, seariously WTF, why would any god want humans sitting around worshiping him/her/it, when it is in our makeup to not understand god. Example, all teh diseases and plagues, i take as god saying stop paying attention to me and fix what you have down there, ITS KILLING YOU FOR CRYIGN OUT LOUD. god aint givin us the answer.

Yes there is a supreme entity, but come on, as a species, we are far beyond religon, back in "acient times" people needed to explain what is going on around them, and god was there best answer, now science has explained the reasons for most of those things, we are getting smarter, and im sure god is pleased with what his creations have been able to do.

And, one more thing, please stop with teh go to church or be damned thing, dont you think god would rather have us use our abilities to help eachother for that hour, rather than sit in a hot building with ppl you don't even really like, and chant prayers that in all honewty mean almost nothign to you?

just my opinions, sry for the spelling, very sleepy

reply to post by open_eyeballs

open_eyeballs:

I have been a Christian for over 30 years and yes I do believe that Christ will appear again with a great shout on the clouds with angels announceing his appearance to the world. I hope I live long enough to witness such a sight. Praise God!

Peace,
Grandma

reply to post by octotom


thanks octotom. That was one of the passages i was referring to exactly.

I have to reply to you with a question.
My main question is a little long, so please bear with me.

Understanding what we know about the universe and ourselves such as math, physics, spirituality..(duality..which is apparent all throughout the Bible), "common sense" if you will, history and even bible history, and depending on your belief set (in your example a form of traditional christianity..defining that as one who believes "God" or "yahweh" created the universe and all within it; including the topics I just mentioned) why do you take this line so literally (the passage you referred to in your answer)?

When...:
1- it does not line up or fall within the boundaries of any of the above well known topics that in your opinion were created by God...
2. If logic is apparent throughout the universe (i.e....1+1=2, there can be no good without evil, and no evil without good, solar systems which fall into mathematically predictable sets and therefore also follows a logical path) then why would the God of the Bible want to end this way of thinking when humans have come so far in trying to understand what he has created?

Because if Jesus were to come in this way surely all things would end...both good and evil, everything "He" created or "let" us find out about what "He" has created and everything humans have accomplished over the last 2000+ years after the time of Christ. Basically it would have all been for not.

This does not make sense to me. Thank you for hearing me out. Also, just to add, in no way am I trying to be confrontational , its just the way I write (with an uneducated background)

If octotom does not respond, by all means anyone with an understanding they believe they possess please feel free to answer..thanks

reply to post by Roark

To the OP: You say that the Catholic Church is at the root of it all, but all of those examples you described in your original post are evangelical or charismatic. How does that work?

I specifically state the Catholic church is the root od it all because 1) they are the original "church" (responsible for creation of the Bible in its current form) and therefor Christianity does originate from them, and 2) yes I believe they fully exploite the people of their faith (especially the poor; this stems from mideival times and rampant corruption on all levels which lead to power grabs from high ranking members..ie. the pope, cardinals and bishops). And most other denominatioons follow the Bible that they created.

but I don't see their presence in the modern age as being anywhere near as prolific as some of the more "enthusiastic" Protestant denominations.

I agree. They have lost quite a bit of influence. And there in my opinion has been a marvelous turn around in the way their street operation runs on the "human" level. They help more poor people these days than almost all charities combined.
Unfotunately, I believe they are still heavily encroached in world politics and even stock market manipulation.

You know the vatican has 100s of billions in stock, right!? I find that sooo funny .. I also believe they had a hand in the recent down turn. I know it sounds loony, but the evidence is there.

reply to post by Grandma


You Go Grandma! Aint no one should ever change your mind! I have no interest in trying to "de-convert" you. If you have held on to your beliefs all these years, you should embrace them and love them. Dont let anyone ever take them away!

Praise God!

Hallelujia!