Mosque's broadcast tests the tolerance of a city

Bleys, thanks for taking a second look at my post. Where Islam in general is concerned I can be narrow minded but this is more of an American issue and it is not a new one. As has been pointed out, many people who have come to our country have had to assimilate and adopt new ways or modify old ones. In most cases the exchange has been two-way to an extent as our culture absorbs features of the newer culture to our benefit. However, for a culture (and it's people) to adapt, there has to be that flexibility.

I don't think Islam is prepared to be that flexible and this nessessity for compromise will used as an excuse by their clergy for more hate and ultimately more violence, both abroad and here in the US. That is my opinion though. I hope that I'm wrong.

*worshipping pet rock*

Finally, my million-dollar idea is set before me...in an ATS post no less!

All I have to do is make a Muslim watch with an alarm that goes off 5 times a day...with a compass feature to always show what direction Mecca is in...I'll be rich!

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
...As has been pointed out, many people who have come to our country have had to assimilate and adopt new ways or modify old ones. In most cases the exchange has been two-way to an extent as our culture absorbs features of the newer culture to our benefit. However, for a culture (and it's people) to adapt, there has to be that flexibility.

I don't think Islam is prepared to be that flexible and this nessessity for compromise will used as an excuse by their clergy for more hate and ultimately more violence, both abroad and here in the US. That is my opinion though. I hope that I'm wrong.

I agree with you. In the past, people came to this country and assimilated. Cultures blended in many ways. It wasn't always an easy transition. with the newest ethnic group often treated the worst. And each developing its own unique niche in society.

Today, that appears to not be the case, esp. with (but not limited to) the Arab populations. By making an issue of this call to prayer, they are antagonizing people and isolating themselves further. I hope that is not their intent.

It just seems they could figure out when to pray, like by looking at their watch???

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe

Today, that appears to not be the case, esp. with (but not limited to) the Arab populations. By making an issue of this call to prayer, they are antagonizing people and isolating themselves further. I hope that is not their intent.

It just seems they could figure out when to pray, like by looking at their watch???

DTOM,

I fully agree with you. In past times people were proud "to become Americans". Certainly, they retained their native culture, but first and foremost, they were Americans. That's not the case today. It seems to me that many are simply using the US as a stopping off or holding point. Not wanting to contribute, but simply take. That is until their native country is once again safe enough for their political orientation!

Your comment,

"It just seems they could figure out when to pray, like by looking at their watch???"

I think that would work just fine if they decided they were staying long enough to reset their watches to local time!

.

Well, I think some people in this thread are painting Muslims with a pretty broad brush. I have worked with Muslims and had Muslim friends for many years. They are, by and large, pro-American. Maybe not pro-American foreign policy, though.

Many who aren't citizens would like to be. Some who want to return to their homeland want to bring American-style democracy with them. And American cultural memes, like monogamy.

It's a free country. Or should be. If they aren't violating noise ordinances, I say let them go at it. It might start a five-times-a-day religious free-for-all. I can hear the Baptist, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, Hindu, Atheist, you name it calls for prayer (or nonprayer) all competing for the same airtime.

Talk about noise pollution. Then they'd all get banned and things would go back to the way they've been, minus the church bells. Small loss for most communities now-a-days.

Assimilation is not the goal of many of the Islam faith:

"Muslim institutions, schools and economic power should be strengthened in America. Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping Mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam ...... Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."

-Omar Ahmad ,Co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations

This is from this link, which illustrates other anti-American viewpoints held by CAIR :

CAIR

That is a good link.

Islam is a proselytizing faith. So is Christianity. Some sectors of the Islamic population in the US are working to make our government Islamic. Some sectors of the Christian faith are working to make our government Christian.

I don't like either sector. We have a secular government. By the Constitution. It needs to stay that way.

And it seems that CAIR has a lot of members who have violated US law. They could easily be part of a conspiracy; although that hasn't been conclusively proven.

That doesn't mean that all Muslims have the same agenda. I like your post, because it allows us to begin to talk about specific Islamic organizations, and specific Muslims. Some Muslims have conspired and acted against US law and interests. They need to be tried and disciplined appropriately.

But all we see in the news are the high-profile Muslims, the ones who are actively seeking to impose their religious beliefs on others. The rest don't make the news.

Just because they don't speak up, it doesn't mean they aren't there. Non-Muslims tend to see Islam as a monolithic religion. It is far from that. Many Muslims I know wanted to come to America from a Muslim nation so they could have religious freedom. They want the government to remain secular. They and their co-religionists have suffered persecution at the hands of the dominant Muslim sect in their home countries. They don't want it to happen again.

Originally posted by glee
It's a free country. Or should be. If they aren't violating noise ordinances, I say let them go at it. It might start a five-times-a-day religious free-for-all. I can hear the Baptist, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, Hindu, Atheist, you name it calls for prayer (or nonprayer) all competing for the same airtime.

Talk about noise pollution. Then they'd all get banned and things would go back to the way they've been, minus the church bells. Small loss for most communities now-a-days.

Yes, let's talk about noise pollution:

And here is the call, to be repeated 5x per day, in Arabic:
"English translation of the call to worship:

"God is great" (four times).
"I testify there is no other God but God (twice)."
"Come and pray" (twice).
"Come and flourish" (twice).
"God is great" (twice).
"There is no God but God" (once).

Translation by Masud Khan, secretary of al-Islah Islamic Center, Hamtramck"

I believe the first call is at 7a.m. and the final is 10pm. How would you feel if you had to listen daily.
No other religion advertises that much.

And, where is the ACLU on this? Shouldn't they be rasising cain about forcing folks to hear this with the same fervor they fight Christian symbols in schools, malls and people's own homes!!!!!

My problems isn't with Muslims, it is with forcing non-Muslims to listen 5x daily to talk about God.
That is way above Church BELLS after a wedding or funeral, when it is more of a call for honor, respect and joy.

[Edited on 8-5-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]

Assimilation is not the goal of many of the Christain faith:

"When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?' the media challenged me. `You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo-Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'" "

Pat Robertson
The New World Order," page 218

Originally posted by glee
That is a good link.

That doesn't mean that all Muslims have the same agenda. I like your post, because it allows us to begin to talk about specific Islamic organizations, and specific Muslims. Some Muslims have conspired and acted against US law and interests. They need to be tried and disciplined appropriately.

But all we see in the news are the high-profile Muslims, the ones who are actively seeking to impose their religious beliefs on others. The rest don't make the news.

Just because they don't speak up, it doesn't mean they aren't there. Non-Muslims tend to see Islam as a monolithic religion. It is far from that. Many Muslims I know wanted to come to America from a Muslim nation so they could have religious freedom. They want the government to remain secular. They and their co-religionists have suffered persecution at the hands of the dominant Muslim sect in their home countries. They don't want it to happen again.

glee

This is a topic that has intrigued me, why it doesn't seem that Muslims in the US rise up against terrorism, at least publicly. I even posted a thread on it a while back.

The first response that I got was to be called an idiot, by a scholar of the Quran.

I received lots of examples of individuals and small organizations that support the US and/or decry terror.

But I never received an answer to the question of why there are no large scale public demonstrations by Muslims against al Qaeda or Hamas, or terrorism in general.

I was told that they do happen, but that the media will not cover them for political reasons.

I asked for ONE example of this. No response.

So why doesn't the Muslim populace rise up in large-scale demonstrations in the US? Several possibilities:

Not in their nature/culture to do so? Well, they do it overseas a lot..

They are afraid of retaliation from terrorists?

They are harboring terrorists among themselves?

They want to see the downfall of the US?

They just don't care?

I don't know the reason(s). I do know that because they don't, along with their reluctance to assimilate into our country, makes it harder for me to trust them.

Well...I do remember some public demonstrations by Muslim and other Middle Eastern/South Asian groups shortly after 9-11, but it is true I haven't seen or heard of any since. Basically, those demonstrations amounted to a public way of saying 'We're on your side...please don't kill us!'. Understandable, with the sudden surge of hate crimes by stupid people who blindly attacked anyone who looked non-native in pretty much any way. (i.e. sikhs, etc.)

I would get pissed if i get awaken at 6 am everyday whether it is for religion purposes or whatever else. I surely wouldn't want something like that to happen in my area, and I understand if non-muslim people would get mad at this too. Its got nothing to do against religion, but common sense. A day in the United States of America normally starts at 8-9 am in the morning, not at 6 am, and much less with loud speakers.

This is a good topic and I think it shows a good example of why the islamic population in the US having such a rough go of it. They have come into the US with the goal, not o join the society but to change it entirely into what they had in the mid-east. Makes one wonder why they would even come to begin with...until you read some of the quotes from the radical leaders who feel secure enough to declare their true objective.

Islam is an intolerant religion demanding tolerance for its intolerance This is blatant hypocrisy and is brought to us all by the fine ideology of political correctness.


I'm not saying that everyone who comes here must leave behind every cultural aspect they hold dear but when an American travels outside the US, are we not looked down upon for every little thing that ties us with the US right down to our language use and accent? If an american female visits a muslim country does she not have to cover her face. We're not forcing baseball, hotdogs, and apple pie down the throats of anyone but jeez, if you come here, you must be tolerant of other's rights not to adapt your culture. Thats just the way it is. Its not going to change because as covert as the politically correct weapon is, sooner or later it steps on the toes of everyone's liberties and thats why its taken on such a negative and nasty connotation.

I'm with Skadi and many of the rest of you. Get a watch and realize you're not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy. Or maybe you are.

Good point AC. When in Rome...

Well, many moderates and all radicals say that they want Islam to rule the world, the thing is that the moderates are using other less violent tactics to reach this goal, while the extremists are using terror and violence.

I agree with you astrocreep, and I think that's exactly what they want to do.

BTW, before people start flaming me, I am not a religious person, spiritual yes, but not religious, and i will never be.

[Edited on 11-5-2004 by Muaddib]

Very interesting posts about Muslim assimilation in America, or should I say lack of. I live near enough to Dearborn, MI. If there were anti-terroroism rallies being held, they'd be news.
We hear nothing.
I do know a friends American children had kind of a rough go in Dearborn public schools, where Americans are the minority.

Immigrants have i history of locating to areas where they have friends, relatives or countrymen.
But, it seems they were always proud to be in America.
One wonders if Muslim arrivals are glad to be in America, or consider America the lesser of two evils.

I think Muslims consider American the prime target and have no intentions of tolerating the other cultures that are here.

Its fine for immigrants to group themselves with fellow countrymen and we very much welcome the addition to our cultural mix but what we do not welcome is those who come here not to contribute but to conquer.

Update!!!
The city of Hamtramck made this a ballot issue, letting the voters decide this controversy. The vote was in favor of allowing the mosque call to prayer.
www.detnews.com...


[edit on 22-7-2004 by DontTreadOnMe]

How dare these people decide what goes on in thier neighborhood! Can't they just be Christians like everybody else? /sarcasm

It's all good that they want to remind people to pray but I mean this is the USA, where neighborhoods are more pleasant when they're quiet. If the muslims are devout they'll know when to pray anyway. Loudspeakers calling all over the city five times a day is simply out of the question. That smacks too much of Theocracies where the state pumps out the inescapable call to prayer.

Personally I usually work at night and if I lived next to a mosque using loud speakers to crank out the call to prayer five times a day I'd be a bit annoyed. Let them do it a couple times a day, maybe dawn and evening, maximum, or five times a day on a holy day.

If a church in the US was cranking out "Jesus is great" four times in a row five times a day seven days a week on loudspeakers I guarantee it would have its speakers shot out, because if I lived next to it and heard "Jesus is great" 20 times a day I'd shoot them out myself.

Americans over the age of 25 appreciate silence in our cities with an occasional religious sound, church bell or call to prayer, but it can't be five times a day, that's simply annoying.