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The End of America, “Gone Without a Whimper”

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posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 05:40 PM
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reply to post by thewind
 


Hey, I was SF and served with the Rangers in combat.

I've never known anything BUT being outnumbered.

Besides, it makes it more sporting.




posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by HunkaHunka
 


I aspire to someday be 'intellectually honest' enough with myself to realize that the evidence before my eyes is not reality at all, and that the 'truth' proceeds only from the halls and textbooks of academia, sociological discussions at cocktail parties and such like.

Then I will know that 'truth' is not truth at all, the evidence of my eyes is not really there at all, and that all reality is in truth what a remote academia defines it to be. I will realize that the evidence of my eyes is not REALLY there at all, but is only a mask for whatever it is you WANT me to see.

When that day comes, and my intellect has been expanded and made 'honest', I might be able to figure out what in the devil you're trying to say in that last post.

However, until that day of dawning enlightenment comes, I will continue to believe what my eyes and experiences tell me, over any text book.

Until that day comes, I will continue to perceive truth as that which puts blood on my hands, dirt under my fingernails, and defiance in my heart.

I reckon I'm just a low-brow, intellectually challenged Neanderthal after all.


This is becoming a pattern now... first you aspired to be as "supreme" as you made me out to be and now you are aspiring to be as "intellectually honest" to use a term I referenced.

You keep assuming that I'm basing something on a text book. And I'm not, I merely showed how the rational mind can come to the same conclusions with or without a text book. I never said you couldn't come to the same conclusion through experience. And I never intimated that one was more important for me than the other.



[edit on 2-6-2009 by HunkaHunka]



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka

It's called extrapolation...


No sir. An extrapolation is a logical but as yet unverified conclusion arrived at by projection from a known and verified fact. The premise is flawed in that the originating "fact" is in reality nothing more than your opinion, derived, it appears, from a textbook. Don't get me wrong, I believe textbooks have SOME value, they just aren't a valid replacement for experience.

"Extrapolation". Yeah, I know what those 50 dollar words mean too, Neanderthal or not.



Secondly, more's which constitute the whole of a groups morality do not emanate from top down, but rather from bottom up. It's not a group dictation of a formalism, it's the emergent of an informal sense of priorities and concerns which defines a group, and eventually becomes codified as a formal system of morality. Such as what Hammurabi was attempting to do with his code of laws... Codify the collective sensibilities of justice...



[edit on 2-6-2009 by HunkaHunka]


You misapprehend my meaning. My original contention is that morality does not emanate from the 'group' at all, top down or otherwise. Therefore I deny this statement in its entirety. I believe I've stated that morality is not subject to legislation, thus codification is irrelevant to the argument.



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 05:54 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


Oh, so you believe there is some sort of morality independent of a group or goal?

How do you come by such an assertion?

What would be the source of such a morality?



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 05:55 PM
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So what is Russia calling us fascist or socialists? Or, are they merily snickering and calling us apathatic cowards?



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 05:55 PM
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dbl post


[edit on 6/2/09 by nickoli]



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 05:56 PM
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Sarge....WOW, you are my hero. All kidding aside, this has been the best post I have read to date. I joined the Army just out of high school, 17 years old. Put college on the back burner because I felt I had to serve. Now, at 48 I am truely ashamed to say that the country I served has become this fat, lazy & irresponsible mass of sheep. Wake up, look around you....for the past 25 years I've been in the trenches trying to wake people up to the state of our desolving union. I am so very happy to see that the awkening is happening......only wish it was a bit sooner then this. Keep me posted on future events....I may be getting old, but this man has a few good kicks in him...email me at my name at yahoo.....



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 05:58 PM
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Neno, this is the same logic as those who brought us "situational ethics."

No right, no wrong.

Right and wrong are postulated to depend on the "situation."

Yet across cultures, millennia, and cultural and religious crossings, there are in fact some absolutes of morality.

There are some things that are universally right, and other things that are universally wrong.

I think you're wasting your time. Some would trust in their scholarly exposures to justify a morality that is nothing more than a moving target.

Here in the US, we've seen how well a shifting morality has worked. Our country has paralleled the shifting morality with a steady decline. They are mutually supporting.

Time for an enema. A social, political, and population enema.

Then we can get back to absolutes.



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:04 PM
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reply to post by obilesk
 


I am soory it took me so long to reply.

I do not know when we crested the hill . . . the point of no return.

If I would take an educated guess, I would think it was 9/11. I think that might have been the nail in the (FEMA) coffin.

Soory for the off-color joke



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka

This is becoming a pattern now... first you aspired to be as "supreme" as you made me out to be and now you are aspiring to be as "intellectually honest" to use a term I referenced.


I'll grant your second point there, because I DID say it. Irony is a terrible thing to waste, when flung at the uncomprehending. However, I've not aspired to the supremacy of anything. But the same token, I will not allow anyone to reign supreme over myself.


Originally posted by HunkaHunka
You keep assuming that I'm basing something on a text book. And I'm not, I merely showed how the rational mind can come to the same conclusions with or without a text book. I never said you couldn't come to the same conclusion through experience. And I never intimated that one was more important for me than the other.


I make that assumption because you haven't established any other authority for your statements. I have repeatedly established my authority as up close and personal experience. Please enlighten me as to the authority you desire to reference.



I really don't know what your issue is, other than you like to be an ass.


Yeah, I guess I do, and I'm very good at it.

My issue is people who spout out academic nonsense without specifying a valid authority (other than academia) to back it up with, then denying that it's academic in nature. It REALLY irritates me when they attempt to steamroll me, and expect they won't get a response from me.

Sometimes it's a mistake to engage someone assuming that they won't call you on it. It's aggravating when your feet get held to the fire, isn't it?

[edit on 2009/6/2 by nenothtu]



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Oh, so you believe there is some sort of morality independent of a group or goal?

How do you come by such an assertion?

What would be the source of such a morality?


I'd be happy to define that for you, right after you define the source of the universe for me. I need a reference point to work with that I'm certain you can comprehend.



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:16 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


I'm not spouting anything, simply following typical protocol of the scientific method.

If your personal experiences lead you the conclusion that there is an absolute morality out side of what emerges from a group, I really wish you would share how you came to such a conclusion and from where this morality emanates.

As I mentioned before, I came to this conclusion both through personal experience and study. You will note that many traditions, including religious traditions have both a written history and an oral one. One which speaks of what has happened, and one which speaks of the experience of the people... They are both just as valid, but as you pointed out either is blind without the other.



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:20 PM
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reply to post by HunkaHunka
 


Young man, you are a barely literate almost insufferable, opinionated youth that has NO right to even insinuate that I hate America, OR any black man. I have laid in my own blood cut to shreds by a mortar while still attempting to direct my squad to safety doing my duty out of love for this nation. My brother in blood was a black man from Alabama whom I ate with, slept beside, fought with and held in my arms begging God for as he died.

Your crass generalizations and circular logic betray a narrow and partisan view devoid of any semblance of logic worthy of debate; hence, go out and accomplish something worthwhile with your young life before you attempt to lecture me. When you have traveled the WHOLE globe, lived overseas in several nations among the people, to INCLUDE three African nations, and done something but make inane and unaware comments on a web site, then speak to me of real life issues.



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:20 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 


Yeah, it's like trying to pin down a marble. It just keeps rolling away from the point.

If you'll notice, a couple of pages back these moral relativists conflated and confused "moral relativity" with "situational ethics" by claiming that "moral relativity" was changing your mind as to what was moral in mid-stream.

That was the definition of "situational ethics" when I was in school. Maybe I'm just too old and cantankerous, and the english language has bypassed me.



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Oh, so you believe there is some sort of morality independent of a group or goal?

How do you come by such an assertion?

What would be the source of such a morality?


I'd be happy to define that for you, right after you define the source of the universe for me. I need a reference point to work with that I'm certain you can comprehend.


Simple... the Morality of the Celtic peoples... from whence did it originate?

Or you can pick any other unique group which has a different morality from our's today and determine from which their morality came from other than within the group.



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by dooper
 


Yeah, it's like trying to pin down a marble. It just keeps rolling away from the point.





I know what you mean... it's like trying to get you to say anything about this absolute morality you speak of...

As far as I can tell it doesn't exist because you haven't given me any descriptions of it other than it does not come from an individual or group, and it is absolute...

me thinks you are leading me on a wild goose chase...



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by maybereal11
 


Who or what runs Russia does NOT make this article any less true. Truth can be stumbled into even by the blind.



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka

I'm not spouting anything, simply following typical protocol of the scientific method.


The scientific method requires observation as a basis. It's been that way ever since there has BEEN a scientific method. That's why I peered through telescopes and conducted experiments when I studied physics and astronomy, instead of basing my papers on what I could pull out of my head.



If your personal experiences lead you the conclusion that there is an absolute morality out side of what emerges from a group, I really wish you would share how you came to such a conclusion and from where this morality emanates.


See above. I require a frame of reference to explain it to you.



As I mentioned before, I came to this conclusion both through personal experience and study. You will note that many traditions, including religious traditions have both a written history and an oral one. One which speaks of what has happened, and one which speaks of the experience of the people... They are both just as valid, but as you pointed out either is blind without the other.


The experience of the people IS what has happened. That's how it became an experience.

[edit on 2009/6/2 by nenothtu]



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


You don't need a frame of reference...

You made an assertion that there is an absolute morality outside of a group of people.

Yet you give no supporting statements describing anything about this absolute morality you speak of.

Just tell me what you meant when you said that morality is absolute, and where you think it comes from...



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka


Simple... the Morality of the Celtic peoples... from whence did it originate?

Or you can pick any other unique group which has a different morality from our's today and determine from which their morality came from other than within the group.


Very neat attempt to sidestep the question, but it ain't gonna work, as it's not the answer to the question, but another question itself, entirely.

As yet ANOTHER exercise in futility, what do you base your assumption of the "difference" in Celtic morality on? The Celtic Triads, perchance, or do you have another basis?

Careful how you answer, as I may not be as ignorant of Celtic thought as you presume.




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