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Mohawk Warriors vow to storm border post

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posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 11:48 AM
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reply to post by apacheman
 


Great analogy apacheman. Your elder was a wise woman. Humans have long repressed that which we don't understand. As the years pass, mroe and more kids will grow up not fully understanding that Europeans were the invaders. The native peoples of the Americas were living in balance with the land. Can we say the same these days?




posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by rogerstigers
Great analogy apacheman. Your elder was a wise woman. Humans have long repressed that which we don't understand. As the years pass, mroe and more kids will grow up not fully understanding that Europeans were the invaders. The native peoples of the Americas were living in balance with the land. Can we say the same these days?


You know, at the risk of getting flamed, I have to say that Native Americans also indulged in slavery, torture and cannibalism. This is not to say they didn't get a raw deal from the white man, but the idea of the noble savage is kind of insulting as well because it reduces the Indians' humanity and replaces it with 19th century European romanticism.

Folks is folks. All we can ask is to play fair.



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that they were *nice* people. They were all just as human as anyone else. Just that they didn't rape and pillage the land. When they invaded countries, they didn't populate like rodents while driving out more and more of the people they took over.



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 12:17 PM
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cant we all just get along. the mohawk people have lived on these lands for thousands of years, so finders keepers losers weepers? nevermind all the illeagal things going on i think that peopel focus on the bad parts of the "REZ", than they do the good parts. as i sit here and am looking 1896 indian head one cent coin. so who was here first? what would the white man think, if a bunch of natives rolled in on ships to their country and said well we are going colinize your area, and put you white people on reservations. what would they think? they wouldnet becuase they are not allowed to think for themselves, the government thinks for them. ask a common citizen what they think the natives should do with their land, they dont have a problem its the government thats got the problem. i was 30 feet from 37 for about 5 hours yesterday and you know how many Border and Customs Protection vehicals i saw ast least 10 that i noticed. and on top of that their own personal helicopter going up and down rt 37. just becuase the natives want to be able to live their lives without government control, that was the deal. how would you feel everytime you go in and out of your town, you got a NYS trooper posted on both sides with their new registraion readers on the roof reading your plates, and documenting your locations thereafter throughout allof NYS. on that note all i gotta say is live free or die.



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by MohawkNationGod
cant we all just get along... nevermind all the illegal things going on i think that people focus on the bad parts of the "REZ", than they do the good parts.


Bad news sells papers. Like I said earlier, last time I was on a reserve was a couple of weeks ago when I took my boy up to the Whetung Gallery at Curve Lake, near Peterborough. www.whetung.com...
Something about standing a yard away from a huge Morrisseau original makes you shiver.

I don't know the answer. You can't crank back history, and I suspect that North American Indians suffer from bad leadership as well. But you can appreciate their place in modern day society without being a wannabe or a shoulda' bin. It's all about respect. The Feds could put some of that to use...they might not be some jammed up with the Mohawks.



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 04:44 PM
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Woooot, Go Native Americans



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 05:32 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

You know, at the risk of getting flamed, I have to say that Native Americans also indulged in slavery, torture and cannibalism. This is not to say they didn't get a raw deal from the white man, but the idea of the noble savage is kind of insulting as well because it reduces the Indians' humanity and replaces it with 19th century European romanticism.

Folks is folks. All we can ask is to play fair.


People throughout history have experienced invasions and displacement. Goes with the territory you could say. The British Isles were invaded by Romans, Saxons. Then in North America the British trumped the French, Dutch, Spanish.

No place is static. Wars are fought, won and lost. Readjusting to change not calling on past history is moving on with life. Thinking of yourself as a perpetual victim is embracing defeat.

What you do in the present defines who you are. Not what your ancestors once did. Be proud of your personal achievements not those of the dead.


Mike



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:13 PM
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reply to post by DEEZNUTZ
 


There used to be a training program for Native Americans called Indian Action. The program trained people in auto repair, carpentry, residential and commercial electrical work, and plumbing.

I headed a a crew of electricians. We weren't paid by the hour, but rather a stipend which was less than minimum wage. We built tribal halls, health centers, recreational spots, and homes for the people, wiring houses for electricity, putting up power poles next to peoples' homes...tens of millions were spent on that program.

Sounds good, huh?

It wasn't.

The tribes and resrvations were merely a funnel through which the money was poured into the local non-native economy. Vehicles and trailers deemed surplus were transferred to tribal control at half cost. When we took possession of the trailers, we discovered that all the copper wiring and tubing had been stripped out except for pigtails at the outlets. In fact, everything of value was gone, and the tribe wound up having to pay for the disposal of trailers the BIA charged against the money issued to them. Likewise the vehicles were in such poor shape that the auto guys learned more about scrounging and cannabalizing than maintenance...usually for every four charged to tribal accounts, one could be made operational.

Construction schedules (dictated partially by what money was released when) were arranged by BIA employees so that houses couldn't be completed (usually lack of supply money) before the rainy season hit, and thus were left exposed to the elements so that stuff had to be replaced and repaired at great cost each spring.

We installed full electrical services including power poles at sites so remote they still don't have power: a simple service suitable for a generator would have been cheaper, more efficient, and vastly more useful.

Projects were begun at one BIA office's order, only to be halted weeks or months later by a higher office, resulting in waste and deterioration. Meanwhile the non-native economy enjoyed prosperity through the BIA's supply spending on the tribes' behalf, while the locals and politicians grumbled about how wasteful and inept Indians were.

hey even sent teachers as part of the program to teach us remedial math, reading, spelling, etc., unmindful of the fact that most of us had at least some college, a lot had AAs, and some few had enough community college credits to graduate twice over but never bothered to. What else are you going to do with time on your hands and no economy? Sorry, but for every Indian who was an alcoholic, there were four or five who simply keep going to school for lack of any better to do. We were highly insulted, but forced to attend as part of our "training".

Those who "graduated", i.e., ran out of eligibility, discovered that no one would hire them, and they weren't accepted into the unions, as their training wasn't union approved.

And yet still, now there are casinos, energy projects and more...remember those four or five forever students? Some of them became lawyers, some doctors, some leaders. Things are a bit better now, but before you talk of how Native Americans have squandered anything, try seeing the reality of Native American life under the heel of the US. The money that supposedly goes to the tribes has for generations never gotten there or if it did, it never stayed long enough for anyone to get acquainted with it.

We grow in knowledge, power and wealth despite the US government, not because of it: it is still dedicated to eradicating the tribes if they can't be controlled.



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by apacheman
You now live in my great-grandmothers house.

There's not much I can do about that.

But in the conflict, a treasure was left behind, priceless to me, but I don't know how you value it.

I'd like to have it back now, if you can bring yourself to part with it.

Our freedom.

My freedom, and the freedom of my people, all of them, descendants of those who welcomed and fed your ancestors, who deserved better from them, and better from you.



I grew up on Chonnonton land. Ever heard of them? It's not a name that gets mentioned much. The French (and there were only one or two Frenchmen who ever set eyes on a Chonnonton village) called them the Neutrals, because very early on they were the buffer between the Iroquois and the Huron.

Over a period of about 15 years, well before European settlers moved into their neighborhood, the Iroquios exterminated them. They're gone. Genocide. The Iroquois picked up guns from the British, and were happy to get them, because it gave them the upper hand in a war they'd been fighting with the Huron since long before the Europeans arrived. The Chonnonton were the buffer between the two, and they held the flint resources. In 1650, the Iroquois exterminated a good chunk of the Huron, and on the way back engaged in a 15 year campaign to systematically wipe out all trace of the Chonnonton.

I grew up in their great-grandmother's house. The one in the village that was razed so completely that archaeologists still can't pinpoint where it was. The one where everyone was killed, save a few women to be kept as "wives". The Iroquois gave away the parcel of land that I personally grew up on about 40 years later. It meant nothing to them. I've seen the treaty. They saw it as spoils of war on the edge of their territory that some fool Brit was willing to pay them for. They didn't care about that chunk of land any more than they cared about the freedom of the people they'd just exterminated.

If I owe anything to the original inhabitants of North America, I owe it to the Chonnonton. I grew up on their land. Find me one, and I'll gladly pay what's owed. Providing, of course, that the 6 Nations Iroquois pay their share first.



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by vox2442
I grew up on Chonnonton land...The French (and there were only one or two Frenchmen who ever set eyes on a Chonnonton village) called them the Neutrals, because very early on they were the buffer between the Iroquois and the Huron...
The Chonnonton were the buffer between the two, and they held the flint resources. In 1650, the Iroquois exterminated a good chunk of the Huron, and on the way back engaged in a 15 year campaign to systematically wipe out all trace of the Chonnonton.


Are you aware that there is some research that suggests the north shore Iroquois...Huron, Neutrals, Petun...were actually wiped out by disease, rather than the 6 Nations? That the southern cousins then moved north to fill the void? There are sites with remains laying about that showed no sign of violence...

Mind you, the French did[i/] refer to 'The Iroquois Desolation"...



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 07:15 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


I've read some of that research - but I'm not convinced that disease had enough of an impact to wash the blood of the Iroquois' hands, which seems to be what a lot of sources are trying to be doing with it.

The real impact of disease on the Huron started to be felt after their "dispersal" - that's where you see the biggest change in their living conditions and so forth - shortly after they retreated to Quebec.

The biggest question that remains from the research - and the subsequent conclusion, expressed or implied, that disease was the real cause of the sudden and rapid disappearance of thousands of people who by pure coincidence were being attacked by the Iroquois at the time - is why didn't the Iroquois suffer losses to disease proportional to the others?



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 09:16 PM
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Originally posted by vox2442
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


I've read some of that research - but I'm not convinced that disease had enough of an impact to wash the blood of the Iroquois' hands, which seems to be what a lot of sources are trying to be doing with it.


The earliest descriptions of the American south-east by the Spanish spoke quite specifically of native population levels. Ensuing expeditions found the ranks decimated and forests empty due to disease. If you need the data, I can find it but it's secondary to my discussion.



The biggest question that remains from the research - and the subsequent conclusion, expressed or implied, that disease was the real cause of the sudden and rapid disappearance of thousands of people who by pure coincidence were being attacked by the Iroquois at the time - is why didn't the Iroquois suffer losses to disease proportional to the others?


Good question, and I can try to source that as well. There is a tendency by some in the Pan Indian movement to try and dilute the native conflicts by tying them in with European motives, yes, and perhaps disease as well. But I mention the disease factor as a personal communication to me by the principal investigator of a fairly diagnostic site. Which is to say it ain't out in print yet.

But the central fact remains, First Nations peoples, as well as the Europeans, were awfully good at killing each other...a fairly human trait.

To bring it all home, the Feds had better work something out or this border thing will continue to be a problem for them. Perhaps the answer is...as one poster suggests... as simple as hiring Mohawks to the Border Agency for just this purpose.

Mind you, that'll make the Unions go nuts...



posted on Jun, 2 2009 @ 11:49 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
But the central fact remains, First Nations peoples, as well as the Europeans, were awfully good at killing each other...a fairly human trait.



I think that's the point I was trying to make, in a roundabout way. I get a trifle irritated when I hear people trying to pull off the noble freedom loving native, custodian of the earth thing - because it's just not true, in the same way that saying the European settlers were a bunch of honest, god fearin' regular people who just wanted a patch of land to farm and raise their families is not true.

Fact is, we're dealing with a diverse group, many of whom were hungry for power, who had no problems with wiping out entire villages, no problem at all with slavery and selling out other large groups of people for private gain. Can you tell which group I'm talking about? Cause I can't remember which one I had in mind when I started typing that sentence.

All men are equal - and that extends to the ability of all men to be complete and utter bastards to each other. My thoughts, anyway.

Anyway, back to the current issue: Allowing the Mohawks to control the border doesn't make sense to me, because they are - by definition - neither Canadian or American. Or both Canadian and American. One of the two.

A better solution might be to extend the border to encircle the res - and place the guards on the outside. Mohawks will get the same freedom of movement across the border they've always had, and no non-native guns on their turf. But of course, that won't work either.

Another solution might be to remove that particular border crossing entirely, and relocate it away from the res. A couple of km to the east would do it. Or simply moving the checkpoints to the Cornwall end of the bridge.

One way or another, this situation needs to be dealt with. There's a lot of smuggling going on there - smokes, booze, guns, drugs, people - pretty much everything. It's been tolerated for years, because the border has been pretty much open between the states and Canada, but also because Canadians like their cheap booze, cheap smokes, Romanian strippers, and so forth. Times are changing, though - and this one will be a flashpoint on the border sooner or later.


[edit on 2-6-2009 by vox2442]



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 12:59 PM
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Originally posted by mmiichael
[q

No place is static. Wars are fought, won and lost. Readjusting to change not calling on past history is moving on with life. Thinking of yourself as a perpetual victim is embracing defeat.




Well, using that logic, it is permissable, legal, and expected then for the Mohawk and other First Nations to go to war and reclaim their lands. This bit of history doesn't have to stay static either...

I don't think of myself or my people as perpetual victims, but rather a people subjugated by ruthless foreigners who sooner or later will be weak enough to take back from them what they took from us. All nations fall sooner or later, and the US is on a path to destruction, prodded by their own greed, selfishness and stupidity. I'd prefer that the Euro-Americans acknowledge their crimes and willingly return at least a part of what was stolen, but that's not likely as long as people here think it's all in the dim past and everyone should simply accept the status quo and get over it.

Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians.

Perhaps it's the dim, forgotten past for you, but my grandmother was born free, a member of an unconquered Apache nation. She was betrayed by the American government who met us as inferiors on the battlefield, and resorted to lies and betrayal to gain what they couldn't achieve in combat.

Many years ago, I decided to fast every Thanksgiving, because it didn't seem right to celebrate the survival of the genocidal murderers who wound up exterminating so many of us. No, thank you, I won't break bread to celebrate such...it felt like asking Jews to celebrate Hitler's birtday or ascension to power or something: evil. I will celebrate my thanksgiving when there is a free and independent Native American country on this continent, with full voting rights in the UN. But until then, as an Apache, as a Native American, I have nothing to celebrate.



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by apacheman

I don't think of myself or my people as perpetual victims, but rather a people subjugated by ruthless foreigners who sooner or later will be weak enough to take back from them what they took from us. All nations fall sooner or later, and the US is on a path to destruction, prodded by their own greed, selfishness and stupidity. I'd prefer that the Euro-Americans acknowledge their crimes and willingly return at least a part of what was stolen, but that's not likely as long as people here think it's all in the dim past and everyone should simply accept the status quo and get over it.

Try telling that to the Israelis and Palestinians.

Perhaps it's the dim, forgotten past for you, but my grandmother was born free, a member of an unconquered Apache nation. She was betrayed by the American government who met us as inferiors on the battlefield, and resorted to lies and betrayal to gain what they couldn't achieve in combat.




I don't think anyone reasonable can argue that indigenous people of North America got a raw deal.

But I also know many people from many parts of the world, Muslims, Jews, Yugoslavians, Africans, etc - who have seen horrifying massacres of their people in their own lifetime. Power hunger and racial hatred are not new and haven't gone away. Look at the hundreds of thousands of people in Darfur being systematically slaughtered or starved by a central government.

I personally have known many people who have lost everything and had to begin their lives over again. The resentment and anger is always there. But you have to move on. You have to say what is best for me and my family right NOW and in the future.

This isn't meant to be a lecture. Just an observation.

I always hope the indigenous people will take a new direction in defining themselves. They were victims in the past. They do not choose to think of themselves in that way now.

The past can't be undone. But the present and future are open for change.


Mike



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 01:40 PM
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Canada Kidnaps the Mohawks

This is a true look at what is going on here...It is not about booze or tobacco

source



...A few years ago a plan was hatched. Prime Minister Harper was friendly with the American real estate people in New York City. They wanted him to change the laws so that Indigenous territories in Canada can be seized by outside interests for non-payment of false fines and criminal convictions. Their interest is primarily in Iroquois territories in southern Quebec and southern Ontario. They also wanted to seize Indigenous property and resources in Alberta and elsewhere. A campaign to discredit us was started.

A huge article appeared in the New York Times about us being terrorists. Then the Center for Public Integrity of Washington DC published a series of 12 untruthful articles in the Montreal Gazette that hooked us up with bikers and other gangs.

Harper announced it on Sunday, May 31st, in Toronto to the Canadian Jewish Congress. Opposition leader, Michael Ignatief, and many real estate promoters were there. It was another piece of the puzzle being fitted together. He will remove the protection so that his US friends and their Canadian partners can grab billions of dollars of prime Indigenous territories in urban Ontario and Quebec. In exchange they will deliver Ontario to his party in the next election...



I have to go for a walk right now...



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 10:19 PM
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Originally posted by HulaAnglers
Canada Kidnaps the Mohawks

This is a true look at what is going on here...It is not about booze or tobacco

source



...A few years ago a plan was hatched. Prime Minister Harper was friendly with the American real estate people in New York City. They wanted him to change the laws so that Indigenous territories in Canada can be seized by outside interests for non-payment of false fines and criminal convictions. Their interest is primarily in Iroquois territories in southern Quebec and southern Ontario. They also wanted to seize Indigenous property and resources in Alberta and elsewhere. A campaign to discredit us was started.

A huge article appeared in the New York Times about us being terrorists. Then the Center for Public Integrity of Washington DC published a series of 12 untruthful articles in the Montreal Gazette that hooked us up with bikers and other gangs.

Harper announced it on Sunday, May 31st, in Toronto to the Canadian Jewish Congress. Opposition leader, Michael Ignatief, and many real estate promoters were there. It was another piece of the puzzle being fitted together. He will remove the protection so that his US friends and their Canadian partners can grab billions of dollars of prime Indigenous territories in urban Ontario and Quebec. In exchange they will deliver Ontario to his party in the next election...




If you read closely you'll see that indigenous contributor 'blackandred' on the MOSTLY WATER site has invented a story. Mixing bland reporting of a non-event with his usual anti-American or anti-semitic speculations. Canadian Jewish Congess gives a human rights award to Harper, with the leaders of the two other Canadian parties also giving an address.

So to 'blackandred' the conclusion is Harper will deliver Indian land to American developers in exchange for the next election.


Hard to find the words for this kind of reporting. Perverted, sick, or just idiotic.


Mike



posted on Jun, 3 2009 @ 11:17 PM
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reply to post by HulaAnglers
 


Thank you for posting this video.

I must admit that I am a little shocked by how polarized people are by this thread. It is a good thread, information wise.

Personally, I was taught the romanticized version of the european conquest in school and a little bit about the romanticized Native version throughout some of my own studies.

I intensely watched the video, and cried out for both the Natives and the Canadian boys sent out at their government's behest.

At a mere 1/32nd Native blood, I find it odd how deeply I feel for what the Native peoples went through at the hands of most of the rest of what makes up my ancestry. At the end of the day, I guess it is just in my bones.

Peace, brothers



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 02:50 AM
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reply to post by mmiichael
 


I tend to believe the Native's story reporting, especially after the "arrests" they executed yesterday, 90.000 soldiers ready to go in there. I don't by it.

As for Harper he sold out a while ago...We are in big trouble and I feel this is the beginning of the end for all of us.




[edit on 4-6-2009 by HulaAnglers]



posted on Jun, 4 2009 @ 05:51 PM
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They're having discussions about moving the border post to defuse the situation.

Here's the Source



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