Russia and Japan want serious response to N. Korea

Originally posted by Jakes51
So gentlemen, what is the response to North Korea then? Should we or shouldn't we respond? As I said in the earlier post, diplomacy and negotiations have met a stalemate.

Hi jake,

The response should be actual negotiation and diplomacy by USA unlike the pretension of such that has so far been used to further impoverish North Korea. Why do you believe the same government who swore about WOMD in Iraq about about the fact that they are 'negotiating' with North Korea? Is Israel negotiating with the Palestinian authority? Why would either of these parties who are known liars who are only seeking excuses to be able to resort to whatever force they believe is needed to create more client states?

They tested a nuke on the yield basis of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, plus they're still launching rockets. You can only shake a stick at a dog so much until finally it bites.

Wouldn't you want nukes if the one of the most heavily armed countries in the world , who only recently invaded two other countries on trumped up charges, threatens you with 'severe steps' if you don't do this or that? Who is threatening who here and why do practically everyone on this forum once again have the situation entirely backwards?

Again this scenario is no different than when Kennedy and Kruschev had their stand-off in the 1960's. I'm by know means advocating military response, but we are nearing that juncture now.

A escalation the US elicited by placing IRBM in Turkey which reduced the warning time in Moscow so much so that the Russians felt that the US were going to start a war very soon. It came at a time when the disparity in strategic forces where massively in favor of the US so they had to do something to rectify it which they then proceeded to try doing.

That country is being run by sadistic madmen and have no appreciation of human life.

He hasn't gotten nearly 5000 American citizens killed ( and tens of thousands seriously wounded/disabled) by sending them to a foreign country that never threatened his. If you want to talk about a appreciation for human life your missing the point by comparing North Korea with the various US national security state. Pick Sweden or the country that has the longest lived citizens and gives most in foreign aid? As for his sadism where do you come up with these ideas? Do you really believe everything you hear in the media?

They're own people are starving to death while they increase their military capability.

At least 3-4 million Americans have to skip one or two meals a day for a while each year because they cannot afford it and no superpower is threatening to attack the US if it doesn't give up it's ten thousand nuclear weapons. Do you know why North Koreans starved in the late 90's after not doing so for the half century before? The floods and the draughts that arrived with striking regularity?

My opinion is to walk lightly but carry a big gun. If they want a fight then we'll give it to them but that should be a last resort.

They don't want to fight but what can you do when the most heavily armed nation on Earth refuses to sign a formal end to a war they forced you to fight half a century ago? If you were the leader of that country what would you do if you believed that national independence was important and wanted to resist foreigners from controlling you economy for their profit?

Stellar

Everything else aside

and it certainly CAN'T be the USA this time, we screwed up enough to be impotent for a time now...

But seriously

Isn't it time the people of NK were able to have a different radio station and some food again... lil kim is a true loon, no people should have to live as the people of NK do...

Thank g-d russia and Japan are stepping up

Big question is... what about China, come on people, this is hideous over there... we complain about loosing a few rights in the USA, what about these poor people, good grief

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Ron Paul is a terrific president, good presidential address. :-)

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
Isn't it time the people of NK were able to have a different radio station and some food

I think it might be nice to know what to wear when I got up, if I am a man I wear dark, and a woman a brown dress. Makes it simple.

Originally posted by tjeffersonsghost
I happen to think because its in their region either China or Russia needs to handle this. If they choose NOT to handle this then we need to stock up Japan with nukes and our missile

Let N Korea play with their new toy alone, the rest of us kids can go over here and play some ball.

reply to post by SoulOrb


yeah until japan wants the ball back



not a good idea to ignore it nor is it a good idea for china russia and the usa to ignore japans interest

not a good idea what so ever ...

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger
reply to post by SoulOrb

 

yeah until japan wants the ball back

not a good idea to ignore it nor is it a good idea for china russia and the usa to ignore japans interest

not a good idea what so ever ...

Look, you see that debt clock in the other post. If the USA does not lave North Korea alone, you won't have a country. This is like people who are about the have their house seized, buying new cars. It might hurt no to have those new cars like the neighbours, but they should have thought of that when they were ordering out take out every night for years, and well, now they got no money for takeout, and upgrading their cars at this time, is a waste. Time to button down the budget, and get the kids home doing some chores.

reply to post by SoulOrb


I dont even know what you mean lol

But this has nothing to do with the usa invading NK i mean why even bother?? lol

The problem is that NK want to be loved lil kimmy is crackers and japan aint in the mood for a crackpot having the toys

If ya gets me "bit of aly g there" lol

Originally posted by centurion1211
But we aren't talking about Israel, we are talking about North Korea!

Your blind hatred of the US clouds your judgement.

Hi Centurion,

Yes, you refuse to talk about the crimes Israel commits daily while demanding that we all speculate about and fear what North Korea may do. We do understand and our judgements are not reserved for just those nations the US national security state chose to make it's enemies.

This has nothing to do with the US, this is not of their making.

I repeat, not all the world's ill's are the fault of America!

No one is suggesting that EVERYTHING that goes wrong in the world is as result of US actions. What we are saying is that the majority of the crimes happens either as direct result of US actions or as result of the socio economic system ( corporate capitalism) being enforced trough US military and intelligence power.

Sorry you had to put up with such a rant from "modern academia" - now there's an oxymoron for you! The instant some of these people start to feel like they're losing a "debate" it's out with the insults and let's blame it all on watching Fox. Elitists ...

So should i take it that you think there is some value in watching Fox? That Fox is comparable or 'better' than CNN, BBC or such?

The "current events truth" is that the U.S. is over there providing security for Japan and South Korea under treaty obligations and because they want us to.

They never had a choice in the matter. Please stop pretending ( i am sure you never checked) that the people of these countries ever got to vote about the issue or that they are not more than capable of defending themselves. As for South- Korea they would have mostly voted for Kim in the first place so yes, there never would have been a permanent division if not for the US intervention.

Now I personally believe it's high time that the people there (Japan, SK, China and Russia) start picking up more of the responsibility and more of the tab for containing North Korea.

Well with all the infrastructure they have managed to erect at US tax payer expense the Japanese could very probably ,in a few decades, build a military machine that could rival those of Russia or China should they so choose. The fact that they have not been allowed to do this is a reflection of how the US will undermine the collective strength of industrialized modern democratic states to further the interest of corporate/financial capitalism.

After all, they are going to take the damage and most of the fallout if a war breaks out, not the U.S.

But since the US created the treaties and then practically signed them for both countries it will go to their collective rescue whether they like it or not. Fact is not much of this was ever in either South Korea's or Japans interest but they never had much of a option given that they were occupied client states.

Stellar

Originally posted by jfj123
Ok let's not get nutty about this.

Hi Jf, and feel free to go first!

The reality is that no matter who you are, you can't be home at all times and even though you weren't worried about your personal safety, you would be concerned about your property. Again this is assuming you are a reasonably normal person.

Why would you be so concerned? Worried about all those 'evil doers' that for some reason insists on wanting to kill Americans, not Swedes and other even 'freer' people? Who but Americans believe, becuase they were told, that they are so special that people wanted to kill them for it?

Sure maybe in a perfect world, anyone could do whatever they liked but the reality is that sometimes dangerous people need to be dealt with before they pose a threat to the entire world.

North Korea does not pose a threat to the entire world. Anti ballisitic missile systems, presuming you believe in the ridiculous notion that North Korea would use it's few warheads in this way, are for sale on the world markets and those work just fine; just ask the Russians who operate many hundreds of these systems with with thousands of missiles deployed. Don't cry foul when others choose to defend themselvs in the logical fashion while the US doesn't deploy ABM systems and build aircraft carriers and F-22's instead.

1. This thread isn't about isreal.

But it should be as they are actually killing people and at last count they are killing about 100 for every Israeli killed. North Korea could never achieve something like that and yet we are forced to discussed the threat North-Korea poses?

2. They don't have an "unlimited amount of nukes"

For the purpose of defending themselves they do.

3. Life isn't fair for the criminally insane all the time.

Actually life isn't fair, period, and doubly so if you are born as poor as the poorest half of the world population. Being criminally insane and immoral is however a good way to get rich as the wall street bankers keeps proving.

4. Is it fair for someone to hold the entire world hostage ?

No it doesn't and we can tell because we had fifty years of experience with brutal, often genocidal, US foreign policy.

With great power comes great responsibility

No it does not as can be seen from how those with true global power and reach insists on abusing it in naked self , the American public also pays a steep economic price, interest. Great responsibilities are however forced onto the shoulders of us common folk..

Originally posted by jfj123
That's great and all but that's not what you said earlier.
You said NK should be able to do what they want which includes building nukes,

Actually i'm sure he meant to argue that they should be allowed to build nuclear weapons as long as they are threatened by the imperialist nations that have already invaded two countries this decade. If they insist on building nuclear weapons in a peaceful world where the US does not us force to reach it's globalization foreign policy goals then we might have legitimate reasons for asking North Korea not to arm itself with such weaponry.

which means they become another super power which also means according to you, they become more corrupt and thus shouldn't have the power.

North Korea could never become a super power given it's population and dire economic situation. Nuclear weapons did not make South-Africa a super power and it will most certainly significantly change the balance of true power as long as the US doesn't attempt a invasion or bombardment of North Korea. As for corrupt officials do you even remember that the Bush government lied about WOMD in Iraq and OBL's presence in Afghanistan? What is more corrupt than two invasions based on falsehoods? What has North Korea done that comes close to those outrages?

So you've changed your stance COMPLETELY within only 2 posts.

So which statement are your wrong about?

I just think you don't read very well which is a signficant problem when coupled with your ignorance and bias on the issue of North Korean sovereignity. Perhaps if you and the misinformed masses, and the AMerican government, stopped threatening the North Koreans with violence for wishing to be able to protect themselves and guarentee their , already very relative, 'freedom' they could continue to open up their society as China did and continues to do. Why the failed anti- cuban policy should work against a even more heavily armed and closed society of North Korea is obviously never explained but perhaps that is because it isn't supposed to work and to keep these nations under virtual sanctions&blockades?

Stellar

Maybe I should pursue a nuclear weapon. I mean, seriously... if anyone who wants to just has the "right" to obtain nuclear weapons, doesn't that mean that *I* have the right to a nuclear weapon if I can get one?

I've certainly signed no treaties stating that I wouldn't make the attempt.

Originally posted by Jakes51
Interesting views on this subject and very poignant! If memory serves, the US has a security partnership with Japan and South Korea. If they need our assistance we are compelled to offer it.

Hi Jake,

They had very little say in the original treaties as both governments consisted of American puppets. I am not sure if these treaties have significantly changed over the years but perhaps you would be willing to find us a record of it?

I mean how long are the nations of the world going to sit back and take little Kim's provocations?

What provocations? Testing weapons that , even in the case of nuclear weapons, many others countries deploy without much international protest?

Until they decide one night to launch a missle on Tokyo or artillery on Seoul? They just broke their involvement in the armistace from the Korean War.

Why would they do that? Why would Kim ( or the generals who are actually in control of the weapons) allow such a thing to happen? Would they risk their positions by starting a war they understand they lost back in the 50's and can't win today? Perhaps they are all crazy and it's just a question of shear luck that they have not started a war so far? Just why do you expecting the people who have kept a apparently rational hand on North Korea to suddenly start behaving irrational?

As for the armistace they didn't break as much as they said that it would be null and void if they are blockade or their ships searched; pretty much a declaration of war no matter where you come from in the world.

By doing such, they have renewed hostilities against the countries involved in that war.

Well they clearly havn't so perhaps we can reinspect these claims about broken treaties?

To me, this is as serious as the Cuban Missle Crisis and it shouldn't be taken lightly by any of the world leaders involved. This is where the rubber hits the road!

The difference being that the Cuban missile crisis actually involved the world as it involved two heavily armed nations that could turn good tracts of the two major continents on Earth into war zones. North Korea can't achieve anything like that by their actions alone and according to our best estimates wont for decades to come.

I was in the service and I would not want to go to war with anyone but there comes a time when sanctions and diplomacy loose they effectiveness, and sadly, I believe we have reached that threshold.

Lose their effectiveness in which way? To intimidate a unthreatening enemy into doing exactly as you want him to? What has North Korea done that makes further diplomacy pointless other than their demonstration that they are now slightly better defended than they used to be? How does being able to defend yourself better than you used to be able create a problem for anyone but those with hostile intent? Have North Korea invaded, bombed or assasinated as many countries or world leaders as the US have in the last half century? I just don't understand all this fear.


I get that Americans are afraid of their shadows and all, and have been so misinformed that they don't know why anyone would have a legitimate reason for vengeance, but why the insistence that the rest of the world that hasn't cooperated in these crimes should be just as afraid?

Stellar