It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Russia and Japan want serious response to N. Korea

page: 7
5
<< 4  5  6    8 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 12:52 AM
link   

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
reply to post by jfj123
 


if i'm a 240lbs bodybuilder with a black belt and a truckload of weapons that I designed and manufacturered and the alledge breaking into houses guy is a scrawny mal-nutrioned hungry man with a few a weapons and alot to lose, then no


Ha you just described my ex-gf's dad PERFECT!! He was all of the above!

But anyway, yes he would be afraid of that situation. He may be able to protect himself, but what about when he's not home, but his family is?

The same can be applied to a country, for you should never doubt a desperate man.....I just gotta look at the pothead friends of mine. Very creative and persistent when a lack of resources is presented. This could be a loose analogy for some of the situation.




posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 01:39 AM
link   
What a load of crap..
the whole thing is just to get everyones attention, distract the peoples of the world?

If anyone cared? North Korea would not be where they are at now?

Did everyone just forget about Iraqs weapons of mass destruction America sure made that their business..

Swine flu?

North Korea?

Common guys, its all destractions..



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 01:48 AM
link   

Originally posted by tjeffersonsghost

Ummmm that is exactly what I said our response should be. We need to sit back and ignore NK and let the people in the region handle it. Yes China will handle it because if they dont Japan is going to rearm themselves and China does not want this.


Since when is Japan allowed to rearm? They agreed after WWII that they wouldn't ever build a military of any substance... Perhaps only small self defense similar to our own Coast Guard.

Never nuclear weapons. Part of our treaty with Japan is/was to protect them with full backing so that they didn't need to have any substantial military.

Not that they couldn't build even smaller and more powerful nukes if they put their mind to it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about Japan rearming at any level.

Some people seem to think that's an option. (and that they haven't had a reason to build nukes until now?)



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 02:14 AM
link   
The problem with Mr Jefferson's views are that China is not the least bit interested in preventing North Korea acquiring or even proliferating nuclear arms.




Since when is Japan allowed to rearm? They agreed after WWII that they wouldn't ever build a military of any substance... Perhaps only small self defense similar to our own Coast Guard.

Never nuclear weapons. Part of our treaty with Japan is/was to protect them with full backing so that they didn't need to have any substantial military.


... In which case japan might reasonably step back and say USA failed it's obligations to prevent NK from threatening Japan's security.



Please correct me if I'm wrong about Japan rearming at any level.


....gladly

Though in Mr Jefferson's views earlier it is no longer USA's problem



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 06:00 AM
link   

Originally posted by sy.gunson

The claims you refer to are serious distortions of historical fact. In fact you are repeating lies as if they were fact.

USA did not install a puppet Government in Iran. The Ayatollah Kohmeni was in exile in France. The Shah's Government was overthrown by an extremely hostile anti American revolutionary government which imprisoned and held captive members of the US Embassy.

You have marred an otherwise interesting topic about Russia and Japan's reaction to North Korea by peddling a whole lot of trash.


Unfortunately, this has happened in every thread in which I've encountered this person. Not sure why but I guess we should take his/her posts for what they are and do as you've done-correct them so they can't spread the lies. Good job with the factual rebutle.



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 06:06 AM
link   
reply to post by sy.gunson
 


He is very correct it was part of the deal made after WW2 that is why im saying and will continue to say

Japan IS the key in all of this.. if they think the USA has failed

watch the fireworks



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 06:12 AM
link   

Originally posted by ModernAcademia


"These reactors are like all reactors, They have the potential to make weapons. So you might end up supplying the worst nuclear violator with the means to acquire the very weapons we're trying to prevent it acquiring," Henry Sokolski told the Far Eastern Economic Review.


Nuclear reactors do not produce weapons grade nuclear material.

This is very common knowledge.



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 06:16 AM
link   

Originally posted by smashenator
What a load of crap..
the whole thing is just to get everyones attention, distract the peoples of the world?

If anyone cared? North Korea would not be where they are at now?

Did everyone just forget about Iraqs weapons of mass destruction America sure made that their business..

Swine flu?

North Korea?

Common guys, its all destractions..

Distractions from what?
Just curious ???



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 06:21 AM
link   
Thanks for the compliment jfj123....

Re nuclear reactors to make Plutonium you need a heavy water reactor with highly enriched uranium 235 (about 20-30% U235) and you have to run it for three months and then shut it down. Remove the fuel rods and then cool them for two years.

It doesn't work with a normal commercial nuclear reactor. The Plutonium is useless because it is heavily contaminated with Pu240. Likewise you also get U232 contamination and both of these contaminations prevent successful detonations.

The two nuclear reactors offered to North Korea could not be used for nuclear weapons but they would have addressed NK's biggest objection that closure of their Yongbyong plant would rob them of electrical generation. Clinton was problem solving. Not subsidising a nuclear weapon's project. People who don't understand the difference have so little understanding that they make no constructive contribution to the debate.



I'm not in disagreement with you assymetricavenger.

Japan is not going to sit on it's hands. My point is that if USA washes it's hands of this situation the global conflagration will boil out of control between Japan and NK.

Mr Jefferson doesn't seem to understand this, or if he does understand then his attitude is irresponsible.



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 06:33 AM
link   

Originally posted by sy.gunson


If we followed some of the suggestions in this thread then in five years time Japan and South Korea will be armed with nuclear weapons too and everybody will be threatening everybody.

Beijing seems oblivious to this and one has to question why ?




www.bloomberg.com...




June 1 (Bloomberg) -- China suspended government exchanges with North Korea after Kim Jong-Il’s regime last week tested a nuclear device and fired short-range missiles, Yonhap News said.

China has halted plans to send officials to North Korea and won’t accept visits from Kim’s government either, the Korean- language news agency said today, citing unidentified diplomatic sources in Beijing.

China’s foreign ministry has said the country “resolutely opposes” North Korea’s nuclear test. China on May 25 agreed with the U.S., Japan and Russia to work toward a United Nations Security Council resolution censuring North Korea. The U.S. and Japan want the statement to call for cutting the communist country’s global financial ties, UN diplomats said.



Like I said earlier an armed Japan is not in China's interests or the interests of the region. I dont think China is Oblivious to this at all. I think this is just a start if NK doesnt start to control itself.



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 06:37 AM
link   

Originally posted by sy.gunson
Thanks for the compliment jfj123....

Re nuclear reactors to make Plutonium you need a heavy water reactor with highly enriched uranium 235 (about 20-30% U235) and you have to run it for three months and then shut it down. Remove the fuel rods and then cool them for two years.

It doesn't work with a normal commercial nuclear reactor. The Plutonium is useless because it is heavily contaminated with Pu240. Likewise you also get U232 contamination and both of these contaminations prevent successful detonations.

The two nuclear reactors offered to North Korea could not be used for nuclear weapons but they would have addressed NK's biggest objection that closure of their Yongbyong plant would rob them of electrical generation. Clinton was problem solving. Not subsidising a nuclear weapon's project. People who don't understand the difference have so little understanding that they make no constructive contribution to the debate.



I'm not in disagreement with you assymetricavenger.

Japan is not going to sit on it's hands. My point is that if USA washes it's hands of this situation the global conflagration will boil out of control between Japan and NK.

Mr Jefferson doesn't seem to understand this, or if he does understand then his attitude is irresponsible.


It's refreshing to see quality posts such as yours and not distortions or complete misrepresentation of truth.
STARRED !



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 06:38 AM
link   
reply to post by sy.gunson
 


I was not dissagreeing also sir we are in perfect alignment on this


I was pointing out to MR J also the problem and the OP that its very much about japan and not the USA invading anyone..

They could wipe NK of the planet if they wanted and why? well.. why not?

But as you and me know that will not happen, but japan on the other hand well...

kamikaze is not a word i take lightly lol

They will have no problem in kicking there ass back to the stone age



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 06:44 AM
link   

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


So Russia and Japan want to take action against North Korea and it's the US's fault.

Run that by me again because I just don't get your line of thought.

Not everything in this world is The USA or UK's fault.


Unfortunately, I have to agree that many are simply offering their standard knee-jerk response to America in regard to this very serious issue.

Most seem to be allowing their negative opinions of America to specifically influence their opinion on NK. And even though their opinions don't make sense, they'd rather criticise the U.S. than consider the consequences of no nation taking action.

The truth is that this IS an important event, and it needs action. People are assuming that it will be the U.S. to take action, when it needn't be.

I despise a lot of actions taken by the U.S. in recent years, absolutely abhor their allegiance with Israel during the Gaza massacre, believe the UN is a toothless group fannying around with no concrete goals in place, and that Obama is just another Bush. But I don't allow those opinions to taint my view of what needs to be done with respect to NK.

I don't care if anyone distrusts the U.S. government and their motives (I don't trust them on most things either) but on the NK issue, regardless of who is to blame for it,. something has to be done to prevent this highly unstable nation from being able to attack others.



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 06:45 AM
link   


Like I said earlier an armed Japan is not in China's interests or the interests of the region. I dont think China is Oblivious to this at all. I think this is just a start if NK doesnt start to control itself.


No but you do think this has nothing to do with USA which is a total cop out.

Until a few minutes ago China sat on it's hands for years tacitly allowing this. We may yet learn Mr Jefferson that a number of China's trading partners applied a lot of pressure on China to act.

NK has been a proxy for China's alter ego for far too long.



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 06:52 AM
link   
reply to post by sy.gunson
 


how how true! but now times have changed and this proxy just got very very stale indeed


2 factors here

Nuke armed Japan

Russia

This is what the problem China faces .. Russia will not allow this any more and its Very much in China's interest not to have Japan as a forward Nuke base for the USA

for all the USA has to say is Go on do it.. we back you..

Then the kick offs start + do not forget that russia is close to japan also would not be good for russia to have them having nukes

This goes way way back to WW2

Do not pee off Japan they have played by some rules now its china's turn to somewhat abide by the rules of the game

NK will need sorting VERY soon be for japan gets very very very upset and goes it alone..



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 06:55 AM
link   

Originally posted by sy.gunson


No but you do think this has nothing to do with USA which is a total cop out.

Until a few minutes ago China sat on it's hands for years tacitly allowing this. We may yet learn Mr Jefferson that a number of China's trading partners applied a lot of pressure on China to act.

NK has been a proxy for China's alter ego for far too long.


Thats fine if they got pressure to do do something. My point this whole time is we dont have to go to war everytime there is an issue which is what some have been advocating on this thread and others. There is a mindset in this country set by our government that everytime there is an issue or a disagreement we need to go bomb them. My point this whole time is no the US dont have to go bomb anyone there are other means. Bombing should only be on the table if we are attacked or an ally is attacked. We are bankrupt last I checked and spending another trillion on another war is out of the question to me. We need to start making friends and selling them crap not bombing them and then paying to rebuild their country.



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 07:11 AM
link   

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger
may i ask are your not American or have a faith?


Hi Avenger,

I know the question wasn't directed at me but that hasn't stopped me so far...

I am not a American and i don't have faith in the idea that attacking and invading other countries will solve any of the worlds problems. I do believe that each country can defend it's borders to the best of it's abilities.


i just get a very anti American feeling


Why? Would it matter if i got anti Muslim ( and the countries they live in) feeling from you? Wouldn't that just be based on my own subjective beliefs? Why are these 'anti-American feelings' not expressed as anti-Sweden feelings? I mean why are both the 'terrorist/evildoers' , and us anti-american folk online, so preoccupied with the US? Could you consider that it's because the US currently occupies two nations that never attacked or threatened to attack it?


ever stop to think that the people they mold stopped taking orders?


Yes, if only soldiers wouldn't follow the orders they get to attack nations half way around the world. That sort of molding we should really get rid off.


did you stop to think that sharia law is in fact real and people do in fact wish to do America harm based on ideology ?


Well i can accept that such a thing is possible but if it's a question of ideology alone why don't the 'evildoers' attack Sweden, Holland or one of those far more liberal countries? I mean why are they supposedly so obsessed with the US? Why don't you consider the possibility that they may gain whatever hatred they have of the US ( not it's freedom) from the fact that it attacks their countries, holy sites and generally intervenes in their political and domestic affairs?

Why believe in the notion that they just mindlessly ( no motivation beside hatred) wants to attack the USA?


I am not to sure the angle you are coming from? would you please expand on this?


He has been trying to point out that the 'aid' the US gives to other countries is overwhelmingly military aid or meant to destabilize them trough economic means or the funding of certain political parties over other. When that doesn't work to turn them into puppet states that will serve corporate imperial capitalism assassination or invasions are staged until something akin to a puppet state is in fact reached. US aid is basically not something you get if you have something constructive and/or progressive in mind.


I just wish to understand

thanks


Don't we all. The problem with this understanding is that so few people are truly willing to consider what they all ready believe or think to be true. When you try to build our world view , mental houses, on the propaganda sand we are fed at our schools ( and i am not American btw) and trough our media it's no surprise that the houses proves to be totally inadequate to live in and yields us no mental comfort or security.

Stellar



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 07:43 AM
link   
reply to post by tjeffersonsghost
 


Im not so adapt at doing the commet thing as well as you so i will keep it short

I read a lot and i understand history very well.. i blame my mother lol "book worm"

Never believe anything but always take it in she said... that way you can understand it...

Now .. the past about NK is true but its not about the USA and the reason i say this is because religion is a pain more so because its a form of control like money .. yes i do contribute to this on going mess we find out planet in but at the same time the people who run this planet are not the sheep who just want to be happy in the system they created..

Now be aware that the CIA made osama bin wacko but for a reason we both know and that was too fight the Russians... now 9/11 comes into play.. but thats for another thread/post in on its self really..

But i will keep on topic and answer you.. many people think the USA is a place when in fact its not its a label of ideology.. once you understand this its better

Japan wants to keep its "label" going and so do china and russia and the usa after ww2 agreed this...

This is why japan has no nukes.. tho they have the brains and would not take them long to do so "as we are both aware of this"

So what would be the logical side to this NK argument?

WAR is what...

The USA has to prove it can protect Japan.. China and russia Do not find it funny that the USA will give the go a head to Japan to unleash the beast "making nukes"

For japan is a proxy by peace of the USA remember?

its like cuba and russia and we know what happend then dont we?

cold war is what happend...

Tho some say it was a staged event .. well i do not think the killings of milllions of people to be staged

Tho granted the arms dealers loved it..

Ego can be a b1tch shall we say and its always been about power

religion is a tool and will be used to fruther the agender of men who have none

always remember this..

what god is it you seek? or dont you?

but you will still for ever wonder why correct? this is what keeps us all going "even the sheep"



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 12:18 PM
link   

Originally posted by Freeborn
The Taliban did not have the support of the majority of Afghan's but they still took the country over because no-one was either capable or prepared to oppose them.


Hi Freeborn,

The Taliban didn't take over the country as much as they took over a few important population and government centres and then mostly because they did in fact have more support than the rest of the warlords/mujahideen/Northern ( or whatever you want to call them, they all came into existence during the 70's/80's) Alliance that were so heavily funded and inspired by resistance to the original pro-soviet government in the late 70's.


We are still paying the price for that non-intervention now.


Rubbish. The USA isn't facing problems trough non-interventionism by trough consistent assassinations, political meddling , invasions and occupations. How can anyone who is remotely familiar with the last century of history argue that the US isn't a interventionist power? Feel free to support your argument trough employing actual sources.


If left unopposed then The Taliban will take over Pakistan, irrelevant of the wishes of the majority of Pakistani's.


How? How would they just take over Pakistan when they could not even take over Afghanistan? How would they take over the very country that made their existence possible trough funding and training?


The Taliban believe they HAVE to impose their barbaric and unwavering intepretation of Islam upon the whole world and will stop at nothing in trying to achieve their goals.


You don't know what they believe any more than i do and frankly i find these types of assertions as ludicrous as laughable. Perhaps you are just projecting your fundamentalism/paranoia ( the belief in plenty of other fundamentalist that wants to kill you) onto the rest of us as tends to be the case?

Why couldn't succeed in Afghanistan? How will they do better than the USA of have also failed in Afghanistan?


The Taliban make the current Saudi government and laws seem positively modern and ultra-liberal.


No, they do not. Afghanistan was and still is a country at war and in countries at war people expect a government to protect them which is exactly what the Taliban often achieved trough draconian actions. Obviously many rights were lost but people, just like Americans( patriot act, etc) don't give a damn about their rights when they become sufficiently scared off these 'enemies' they keep being propagandized about.


And what if Pakistan's nuclear arsenal comes under Taliban control.


Then i suspect India will crush Pakistan. How do you even come up with these widly ridiculous fantasy futures?


Imagine India's response to that.
What about world security then?


What about world security now? Millions of displaced Iraqi's, Afghans and Pakistanis trough the violence of the US national security state? Why do you keep concentrating upon the consequences of future actions by other nations when the current actions of the US has massively destabilized the world?


Whilst I agree that the US, and the UK, have meddled far too much in other countries buisness, burying one's head in the sand and ignoring everything that goes onaround you only makes it easier for other's to shaft you from behind.


Paranoia is very bad for one's health so i hope you have plenty of medical insurance. When have the US or UK ever buried their heads in the sand when came to the possibility of intervening in the affairs of others to further the ends of global corporate capitalism?



A cliche, but true!


Few are true even if they are based on some morsels of truth.

Stellar



posted on Jun, 1 2009 @ 04:36 PM
link   

Originally posted by MattMulder

That's funny to read all those crazy theories guys. Especially yours, Modern...


It IS crazy to see all this paranoia and fear as related to one or two nuclear weapons when Israel has many in reserve while so far using conventional weapons to attack the defenseless Palestinians. Crazy indeed.


Do you really think China will let its neighbor create real problems ?


I don't know and i don't know just how much power China has over Kim any ways. Do you know, i mean do you have actual evidence?


Kim and friends represent the aggressive side of China's interests, and their mind games are aimed to test the Obama administration .


No more paranoia without proof, please.


In the case of a war, I will use Hitler's own words when he talked about Russia 69 years ago : " the Russian system is like an old dusty house. Kick strong enough the front door and the whole structure will crumble "


And the Russians still managed to win the second world despite losing practically the entire the had at the start of it. Just because the door is rusty does not mean it isn't a 1 meter thick blast proof one.


So what would the " kick" look like ? that's the question my friends. Remember that the North Koreans are keeping alive the old Soviet system, and that the only language they understand is force.


The North Koreans have their own home brewed version of totalitarianism and this misinformed comparison of one tyrannical regime with others , based on the notion that their all in involved in a global communist conspiracy, can be seen for the propaganda it's based on. There are plenty of real honest to god conspiracies, such as the fact that almost all countries follow generally capitalist models, but the 'faith' in the communist one doesn't gain one much understanding of the world


Unlike the Chinese, they can be smashed with no big consequences for the US economy, because money once again is what it's all about. ( but I'm afraid the Chinese won't let that happen and probably will remove Kim by themselves )


Yes, my advice would be for the US to sign a actual peace treaty ( to finally end the Korean war) with North Korea and withdraw it's troops after the two or three ears it would take for Japan to construct a few dozen nuclear weapons and their delivery systems. In this time all blockades with North Korea should be lifted so that those who wish to trade with them can do so.

If Kim really turns out to be a crazed mad man we can always bomb them when they have no more American troops in South Korea to hold as virtual hostages. Why should the super power that is the US fight with conventional weapons at all? Take every soldier from ever base around the world home and secure the ports and airports so that nothing that comes in that isn't checked 100%. The Pentagon budget would easily pay for that.

If North Korea still wants to start a invasion of the south the US can always use larger nukes than they used in the last assassination attempt on Kim in 2004; well that's a few , including myself, believe...

news.bbc.co.uk...

news.bbc.co.uk...

www.globalsecurity.org...

If the US wants to truly frighten the enemies it has made over the years sending grunts to get killed at even this tempo tempo isn't only going to destroy the US armed forces in a slow anti-insurgency war but will bankrupt it to as well.

Stellar




top topics



 
5
<< 4  5  6    8 >>

log in

join