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Russia and Japan want serious response to N. Korea

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posted on May, 31 2009 @ 07:04 PM
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reply to post by tjeffersonsghost
 


I never said that we dont need to spend any of our money on infastructure. I also never stated that we need to spend all of our money on our military.
Unlike Iraq(speculation), this country does pose a threat to human lives, no matter which way you look at it, when they tell the world to screw off and continue on testing weapons(that they arent supposed to have in the first place) that are meant to destroy peoples lives, then they are a threat. Even their allies know what kind of damage this does not only to NK itself, but as well as anyone who stands by them.
With that said, if none of the other countries are going to do anything about it, then who else will? Would you be willing to just sit back and wait until people get killed before you act on someone that is trying to poses the power of a nucleor state? Im not.
NKs' people are at the hands of a madman, and they have no choice but to comply with their leader, leaving them succeptable to getting wiped out just because their leader isnt getting enough attention. NK may not be a threat to all the major nations, but they are a threat to peoples lives, doesnt matter if it is 100 or 1 million. Someone needs to stop them, and if nobody else will then I guess we will have to be the ones that have to get our hands dirty, again. I do not believe however that most nations will just stand by, NK has burned so many bridges that someone WILL deal with them. China,Russia,Japan,the US, whoever,doesnt matter as long as someone puts this guy in his place. Regardless, thousands of people may get hurt because of one madman. To me, thats not acceptable.




posted on May, 31 2009 @ 07:15 PM
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reply to post by Common Good
 


I happen to think because its in their region either China or Russia needs to handle this. If they choose NOT to handle this then we need to stock up Japan with nukes and our missile shield. It is not in China's interests to have a stocked up Japan. If it comes down to the lesser of two evils China will take care of NK rather than have a stocked up Japan and strained relations with a country that owes them nearly $1 trillion dollars.

My apathy comes because my country has lied to me to much. Maybe NK IS a real threat but the government has cried wolf so many times in the past 50 years that I just dont trust them anymore. I dont trust them with my money and I dont trust them with my life. Id rather keep my money so I can do my OWN preparations than feed this government and their lies. So I say give it time and let them talk smack. If they attack Im all for nuking them off the face of the earth.....



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by tjeffersonsghost
 


Im with you on not trusting our govt enough haha.
They do have a way of screwing us over with a smile on their face, and have become efficiently good at it over the years.
I am also with you on letting China handle it, but I dont know if they would.
Im thinking if anyone was to deal with Nk it may be Russia, or even a joint maneuver with several countries handling it together so they all look like "the good guys". I think that America should stay out of this one as well, but I dont know if that will happen. If these other countries do attempt to disarm NK, then I dont think it would hurt for us to assist in their needs, as long as we arent the only ones dropping the hammer.



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 





Subsize North Korea's nuclear program, soon we'll invade. Subsidize Pakistan's nuclear program and put musarraf into power now let's invade. Bin Laden a former CIA agent, now let's attack an entire country where he is residing. Install puppet govts. in Iran, now let's blockade them with an armada of warships.


Modern Academia, I don't know what weed you're smoking but that's damn good s@it!

First USA did not subsidise North Korea's nuclear project. USA tried to defuse North Korea's nuclear ambitions by offering food aid and to build a peaceful nuclear reactor which could not be used to create nuclear weapons.

You don't seem to understand that bomb grade Plutonium can only be harvested from certain kinds of nuclear reactor.

USA did not subsidise Pakistan's nuclear reactor. Pakistan created it's nuclear project in secrecy and when discovered USA slapped embargos on Pakistan and withheld arms deals like an order for F-16 fighters.

The claims you refer to are serious distortions of historical fact. In fact you are repeating lies as if they were fact.

USA did not install a puppet Government in Iran. The Ayatollah Kohmeni was in exile in France. The Shah's Government was overthrown by an extremely hostile anti American revolutionary government which imprisoned and held captive members of the US Embassy.

You have marred an otherwise interesting topic about Russia and Japan's reaction to North Korea by peddling a whole lot of trash.



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by sy.gunson


USA did not install a puppet Government in Iran. The Ayatollah Kohmeni was in exile in France. The Shah's Government was overthrown by an extremely hostile anti American revolutionary government which imprisoned and held captive members of the US Embassy.



Umm actually who do you think installed the shah? Ding Ding Ding that's right our government. The people were hostile and anti western because of the meddling in their affairs since the fall of the Ottoman Empire. On top of backing dictators like the Shah we also gave Iraq chemical weapons and other weapons as we backed them in their invasion of Iran. If that wasnt enough we shot down and killed 200+ civilians in an airplane. Iran has a legitimate beef with us Im surprised they are willing to even extend a hand of friendship....



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 07:37 PM
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reply to post by tjeffersonsghost
 





I happen to think because its in their region either China or Russia needs to handle this. If they choose NOT to handle this then we need to stock up Japan with nukes and our missile shield. It is not in China's interests to have a stocked up Japan. If it comes down to the lesser of two evils China will take care of NK rather than have a stocked up Japan and strained relations with a country that owes them nearly $1 trillion dollars.


That's a selective cop out.

USA benefited economically from the paxus Americana which followed WW2 for decades. As part of the quid pro quo Japan and South Korea were promised US protection from China and the Soviets on condition that they did not arm themselves with nuclear weapons.

Have you any idea how dangerous the world would be if in 1952 USA walked away and said this is nothing to do with us ?

USA has directly benefited from global free trade under a US nuclear umbrella. For USA to turn and run when Japan and South Korea call in those promises will lead to the break down of global free trade and create a far more dangerous position than North Korea could ever create by itself.

The whole global market is founded on trust in USA keeping promises made half a a Century ago... "Ich bin Berliner!"

You Americans now want to blame the rest of the world but this current global meltdown was caused by naked greed in US securities markets.

Take some responsibility for the mess America created or else you had better all start learning to speak mandarin.



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by tjeffersonsghost
 





Umm actually who do you think installed the shah? Ding Ding Ding that's right our government. The people were hostile and anti western because of the meddling in their affairs since the fall of the Ottoman Empire. On top of backing dictators like the Shah we also gave Iraq chemical weapons and other weapons as we backed them in their invasion of Iran. If that wasnt enough we shot down and killed 200+ civilians in an airplane. Iran has a legitimate beef with us Im surprised they are willing to even extend a hand of friendship....


I know who installed the Shah.

How does that relate to the OP's claim that somehow what USA did in the early fifties with somehow manufacturing a confrontation with the current Iranian Government.

This argument is so tenuous and weak that you have to be smoking whacky backy to believe in it.



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 07:44 PM
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Originally posted by sy.gunson

USA benefited economically from the paxus Americana which followed WW2 for decades. As part of the quid pro quo Japan and South Korea were promised US protection from China and the Soviets on condition that they did not arm themselves with nuclear weapons.

Have you any idea how dangerous the world would be if in 1952 USA walked away and said this is nothing to do with us ?

USA has directly benefited from global free trade under a US nuclear umbrella. For USA to turn and run when Japan and South Korea call in those promises will lead to the break down of global free trade and create a far more dangerous position than North Korea could ever create by itself.


And we are protecting them. Have either of them been attacked? Did you not read the my full post? I said specifically if they are attacked then we need to wipe NK off the face of the earth. The fact is they have not been attacked. Also how have we benefited from global free trade? America has lost millions of jobs overseas, trillons in wealth has been transferred, and we are now the biggest debtor nation in history. Right now the only thing we have going for us is our military. Globalization has not benefited America at all. Yes I was against the first Korean war also just like I am against Vietnam. Neither war gained us anything but hundreds of thousands dead and some rich bankers and defense companies......



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 07:47 PM
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Originally posted by sy.gunson


I know who installed the Shah.

How does that relate to the OP's claim that somehow what USA did in the early fifties with somehow manufacturing a confrontation with the current Iranian Government.

This argument is so tenuous and weak that you have to be smoking whacky backy to believe in it.


Umm no its not weak. The older generation of Iranians cant stand us to this day. Its the younger generation that loves us and that is because they dont understand their history. We should capitalize on this by extending a hand of friendship instead of threatening to bomb them every other day because Israel says we should. If you dont think our past meddling doesnt affect what is happening today in the world then your the one smoking the heavy stuff......



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 08:06 PM
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reply to post by tjeffersonsghost
 


Hello ding... ding... ding.

Well if you ever bothered to read history tjeffersonsghost, you might realise that Britain and the Soviet Union invaded Iran in August 1941 to depose the pro Nazi Reza Khan.

It was the British who toppled Reza Khan and appointed his son Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi.

You keep smoking that stuff okay ?



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 08:11 PM
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reply to post by tjeffersonsghost
 


I agree, the OLD NK is in the past.. china will not put up with it as its going to put Japan on war footing...

we know what happens when japan gets miffed... kamikaze ?

best you understand the logic of that word Japan is and will be ready for action and the only thing stopping them removing NK from the map is the USA

china knows it Russia knows it and so does the USA




posted on May, 31 2009 @ 08:22 PM
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Originally posted by sy.gunson
reply to post by tjeffersonsghost
 


Hello ding... ding... ding.

Well if you ever bothered to read history tjeffersonsghost, you might realise that Britain and the Soviet Union invaded Iran in August 1941 to depose the pro Nazi Reza Khan.

It was the British who toppled Reza Khan and appointed his son Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi.

You keep smoking that stuff okay ?


Ill keep smoking it if you keep selling it. The fact is the government wanted to nationalize the oil and the west didnt like that. it comes down to oil period. So we inserted our man in there so we could get their oil.



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 08:28 PM
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Symetricavenger I actually agree with you that the danger here is if USA walks away from it's obligations, then Japan may well act alone.

Not that Obama would walk away, but there is a disturbing, if understandable reluctance by ordinary Americans following the mess in Iraq to stand by obligations to support Japan and South Korea.

If we followed some of the suggestions in this thread then in five years time Japan and South Korea will be armed with nuclear weapons too and everybody will be threatening everybody.

Beijing seems oblivious to this and one has to question why ?



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 08:34 PM
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reply to post by tjeffersonsghost
 


You must be a chronic weed smoker Mr Jefferson. Iran sells almost all it's oil to China.

The OP said:


Install puppet govts. in Iran, now let's blockade them with an armada of warships.


... which entirely forgets that in the 1987 war between Iraq and Iran, the iranians send an armada of Bog Hammer fast boats to attack tankers of every nation in the Persian Gulf. These tankers were not engaged in a war with Iran.

Nobody has blockaded Iran. Iran has attacked the shipping of several non combatants and in 2006 threatened to attack the nations of all it's Gulf neighbours.

If as you suggest Mr Jefferson it is all about control of oil how come USA does not control nor prevent delivery of a single drop of Iranian oil ?



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 08:38 PM
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reply to post by sy.gunson
 


No I said that we overthrew their government in 53 because of oil. As far as now thats correct their oil goes to China but we meddled in their business then because of oil and their wanting to nationalize it hence screwing the west and their ambitions.



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 08:39 PM
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reply to post by sy.gunson
 


Well as you are aware NK was a proxy of china, but the world has moved on but im still not sure why China is not dealing with NK, maybe its the population thing im not sure, but one thing im very sure on is that China do not want Japan to have nukes...

think cuba... USA has a nice little arangement with them no nukes and we protect you.. if japan feels like this is not working out all hell is going down

and money will not be an issue any more.. china and russia more so russia knows this

they "russia" are in agreement with japan, because they know if japan gets nukes they are themselfs a target via proxy of the usa

you see how it works?

NK will be dealt with.. in due time i hope for the sake of all parties that china sorts them out or action will be taken

and japan will have no problem in doing it alone and you know thats not a good thing by any standards

let me point out again... it took 2 NUKES to stop them, do not think they are some little island off the coast of NK you will be very very saldy mistaken in doing so

Japan is very very worried and so it should be.. i think the others are going to pay a lot of attention to this factor, seems one is already "russia"



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 08:54 PM
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let me point out again... it took 2 NUKES to stop them, do not think they are some little island off the coast of NK you will be very very saldy mistaken in doing so


Actually a far bigger reason why Japan caved in was because the Soviets attacked Manchuria, Sakhalin and Korea in mid August 1945.

Japan was stoutly determined to hold out even after Nagasaki. Japan had fabricated at least three nuclear weapons in the Imperial 8th Army Laboratory in tunnels above Hungnam (nee Konan) and successfully test blasted their own weapon at a small island near Hungnam just days after the destruction of Hiroshima.

An Army investigative officer named Snell obtained an account from a Japanese officer at the Shinto shrine on a hill above Pyongyang using the alias Wakabayashi. By all accounts this person Wakabayashi appears to have been Prince Chichibu.

Wakabayashi's account was later corroborated when one of 700 Japanese scientists held at Hungnam by the Soviets Otogoro escaped to South Korea in a small boat in December 1945. At the NARA archives in Suitland if you check Box 3 entry 224 for the interrogation of Otogoro Natsume 31 October 1946

The crew of a B-29 bomber downed over Hungnam by the Soviets in September 1945, gave interviews upon their release corroborating accounts of a Japanese A-bomb.

Japan lacked the means to deliver a nuclear weapon over long distances in August 1945, however could have used them in self defence with a few more weeks.



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 09:36 PM
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reply to post by sy.gunson
 


sy.gunson you have a bit to learn
but don't worry
i'm here to help!


try this

how's that for perspective?

US Overthrows Iranian Gov in 1953
Here you go



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 09:46 PM
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Originally posted by sy.gunson
First USA did not subsidise North Korea's nuclear project. USA tried to defuse North Korea's nuclear ambitions by offering food aid and to build a peaceful nuclear reactor which could not be used to create nuclear weapons.

US grants N Korea nuclear funds
news.bbc.co.uk...


The US Government has announced that it will release $95m to North Korea as part of an agreement to replace the Stalinist country's own nuclear programme, which the US suspected was being misused.

"These reactors are like all reactors, They have the potential to make weapons. So you might end up supplying the worst nuclear violator with the means to acquire the very weapons we're trying to prevent it acquiring," Henry Sokolski told the Far Eastern Economic Review.


It's very simple
Give some all the ingredients to make a cake but tell them not to make a cake?

come on man

And you may so oh but but it's not what it was intended for?
How many subsidies for foreign nuclear projects examples do you need?

They ALL went bad!
So why keep making the same mistakes a million times?

And you didn't answer
did the U.S. Put Musarraf into power?
Even during the presidential debates Giuliani said Musarraf isn't working
Now with must decide who next to put in power in Pakistan.

When and where will it end?



posted on May, 31 2009 @ 11:29 PM
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reply to post by sy.gunson
 


Very true

that is why i stated and will continue to do so.. JAPAN is the key here

if the get miffed then war happens and well.. that is not a great idea but honor is at stake not money




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