Saudis Behead, Crucify Convicted Child Molester, Murderer

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Maybe these 'thickheads' are the ones who care more about their own children, than a twisted pervert.

Or maybe these 'thickheads' don't care about having the facts and they just let their emotions deceide.

I'm willing to bet that their is not one person from Saudi Arabia on this thread and yet most people seem to know enough to convict this man...Again, how many of the people posting on this thread are Saudi and have all the facts to indeed say wether or not this was just?

Originally posted by clcreek
No one said you had the facts... Apparently the Saudis felt they had the facts...

And no one said you had the facts yet you are willing to support the punishment. There are people being executed in China aswell, you need not know the facts but do you agree??

If you knew the facts what would you do - probably go home and have a sandwich then rehabilitate the perpetrator so that they can be released to commit yet another crime?

Go to www.ojp.usdoj.gov... to read how many people are guaranteed to be re-convicted

I don't see were the sandwich comes in but i sure as h*ll would not promote this person to be beheaded. It's not the way we do things in our country and for some weird reason the problems we have with sex offenders are minor....

We did have a discussion here recently wether or not it was such a smart idea to reintergrade convicted child molesters into neighborhoods with lots of children......(yeah i know, dutch people are weird)

The problem nobody seems to adress is were such an twisted individual comes from. Again i'm no expert but ,apart from a few twisted individuals which were born pedophiles (don't know if this is possible ,but for discussions sake), most criminals are a spawn of it's society.
We've created these people ourselfs and when it goes wrong nobody wants to take responsibility.....
The fact that this discussion has taken a turn and we are now defending the fact that it is better to kill a man instead of paying for the time he has to spend in jail says enough about our society.

So money has a higher value than a mans life???

Peace

Convicted child killers should obviously be executed.

Mind you, we have a civilisation which should obviously be above such barbaric methods- execute them, just leave out the "old skool" methods

Here in America, there's plenty of people who believe child molesters should be beheaded and crucified. Unfortunately, they're insane.

This is medieval barbarism carried out by religious fanatics. The civilized people of the world are trying to move on. After reading the first page of responses from the ATSers who gave a thumbs up to Saudi royalty, I'd like to encourage them to try to keep up with the times.

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
The problem nobody seems to adress is were such an twisted individual comes from. Again i'm no expert but ,apart from a few twisted individuals which were born pedophiles (don't know if this is possible ,but for discussions sake), most criminals are a spawn of it's society.
We've created these people ourselfs and when it goes wrong nobody wants to take responsibility

The leading theory is that it's sexual retardation. Something at some age causes their mental sexual development to halt. So whereas normal people when they were 14 fancied 14 year olds but then as they aged they stuck to girls roughly their age, paedophiles got stuck. This isn't me excusing them in case anyone wants to say that. Convicted paedophiles who abuse children need to be locked up for life, as do paedophiles who have videos and pictures of real children involved in sex acts.

I would however prefer we used life in prison to the death penalty because in the end you can judge a society by how it treats it's criminals. Can't remember who said that but it seems true.

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
The fact that this discussion has taken a turn and we are now defending the fact that it is better to kill a man instead of paying for the time he has to spend in jail says enough about our society.

So money has a higher value than a mans life???

Peace

I don't much care if a paedophile dies tbh, however i'm very worried about innocent people being falsly convicted, killed and then we find out they were innocent. If that happens then anyone supporting the death penalty is equally responsible with the executioner and the judge who handed down the sentence for the murder of an innocent man.

Let us be clear, it is murder, no ifs or buts, it's murder when you take an unarmed, defenceless person and kill them. If people here are fine with that, fine with the possibility of innocent people being murdered then i don't know what to say anymore.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Thank you so much for this reply!!!

I was beginning to question the sanity of ATS users in general because of the replies i was reading...

The whole reason i've been on this site everyday since i joined is because of the fact people on this site tend to think outside the box and don't shout along with the rest of the crowd.

But after a few "if you don't like it, just leave ATS" and other replies i was seriously considering doing this because i can hear BS converstion like that every day just by turning on the television.

Peace

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

 

Thank you so much for this reply!!!

I was beginning to question the sanity of ATS users in general because of the replies i was reading...

The whole reason i've been on this site everyday since i joined is because of the fact people on this site tend to think outside the box and don't shout along with the rest of the crowd.

But after a few "if you don't like it, just leave ATS" and other replies i was seriously considering doing this because i can hear BS converstion like that every day just by turning on the television.

Peace

ultimately, unless a man is truly "insane"- he must be judged by his own actions, and the action of raping a child and then murdering the child is beyond the pale- that is not the action of society, but the action of a perverted individual, maybe it was that knock on his head when he was 10, maybe it was society(?!?) encouraging him to rape and murder children (which society does this), maybe it was bullying at school etc etc- none of that takes away choice, none of it taks away consequences of choice

Originally posted by blueorder

ultimately, unless a man is truly "insane"- he must be judged by his own actions, and the action of raping a child and then murdering the child is beyond the pale- that is not the action of society, but the action of a perverted individual, maybe it was that knock on his head when he was 10, maybe it was society(?!?) encouraging him to rape and murder children (which society does this), maybe it was bullying at school etc etc- none of that takes away choice, none of it taks away consequences of choice

I think you missed the point. Many people have been falsly convicted of all sorts of crimes, including paedophilia. I would not want to risk killing even one innocent person to kill 100 paedophiles. Life in prison isn't enough you don't think?

Hey try looking at it this way, would you rather spend 70 years in prison or be killed? I know i would happily choose being executed because spending that long in prison would be torture. Death is a very easy way out. All it is for is to fuel that bit of bloodlust that many people have in them, but ultimately all it does is reflect badly on our society.

Paedophilse absolutely must be punished and imo kept away from all society in secure institutins because they will never change. I just won't support killing anyone, unless it is direct self defense.

Originally posted by blueorder
ultimately, unless a man is truly "insane"- he must be judged by his own actions, and the action of raping a child and then murdering the child is beyond the pale- that is not the action of society, but the action of a perverted individual, maybe it was that knock on his head when he was 10, maybe it was society(?!?) encouraging him to rape and murder children (which society does this), maybe it was bullying at school etc etc- none of that takes away choice, none of it taks away consequences of choice

Absolutly true......(finaly some intelligent discussion )

Truly insane people cannot be judged for they cannot differentiate between what is right and what is wrong and they should be cared for in a protected enviroment.

First we have to look at what pedophilia actually is. Some scientist say it is an affliction with which you are born and some believe it is learned.
I personally believe it is an affliction with which you are born and the upbringing, personal development and enviroment deceide the severity.

Going by this line of thinking i can see a lot of factors over which have influence in order to prevent people with such an affliction to do wrong.

I know that free choice demands that you take responsibility for the path you choose but then locking somebody away because they were born with kleptomania is also valid because they choose to steal things while they know it is wrong......right??

Peace

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I think you missed the point. Many people have been falsly convicted of all sorts of crimes, including paedophilia. I would not want to risk killing even one innocent person to kill 100 paedophiles. Life in prison isn't enough you don't think?

I personally do not think life in prison is enough- certainly not prison as we know it today- books, tv, fitness, self development classes, art etc

In cases where execution is persued evidence would have to be particularly "rigorous", now there will never be 100% in anything we do, but consider that there is nothing 100% about releasing convicted murderers, many of whom have killed again

Hey try looking at it this way, would you rather spend 70 years in prison or be killed? I know i would happily choose being executed because spending that long in prison would be torture. Death is a very easy way out. All it is for is to fuel that bit of bloodlust that many people have in them, but ultimately all it does is reflect badly on our society.

70 years in prison- honestly, if someone came up to me now and said "I kill you or spend 7o years in prison"- i'd choose the latter

Paedophilse absolutely must be punished and imo kept away from all society in secure institutins because they will never change. I just won't support killing anyone, unless it is direct self defense.

Fair enough, but just on your last point, that could also result in the wrong person being killed, depending on the circumstances of your "self defense", just a thought?

ALso, on a semi related not, here in the UK we do not have the death penatly for convicted criminals, yet we seem to be employing the death penalty for armed police to kill people on an increasing basis each year- the people they execute have never even been to trial

Originally posted by operation mindcrime

Absolutly true......(finaly some intelligent discussion

)

Truly insane people cannot be judged for they cannot differentiate between what is right and what is wrong and they should be cared for in a protected enviroment.

in principle this is true- the problem comes when you ascertain "when" such a person should be placed in an institution- obviously you want to do this before someone does something horrible, but then this can lead to issues over freedom and abuse of institutionalisation.


It may seem harsh, but for a mentally ill person who does something heinous such as kill a kid, they should be locked up in a harsh environment, they may not have know what they did was wrong, but it was wrong, and here is how you will remain for the rest of your days

First we have to look at what pedophilia actually is. Some scientist say it is an affliction with which you are born and some believe it is learned.
I personally believe it is an affliction with which you are born and the upbringing, personal development and enviroment deceide the severity.

ultimately a lot of people earn a living pretending to, or trying to, read people's minds- but rest assured, regardless of the society, or culture or time, there will always be an individual so debased that he chooses to carry out such atrocities.

Going by this line of thinking i can see a lot of factors over which have influence in order to prevent people with such an affliction to do wrong.

that is all very nebulous though, we can never TRULY know what made an individual commit a specific act, it is largely speculation

I know that free choice demands that you take responsibility for the path you choose but then locking somebody away because they were born with kleptomania is also valid because they choose to steal things while they know it is wrong......right??
Peace

again, some allegedly "smart" people get paid to "treat" such "conditions"- it doesn't necessarily mean the condition for an individual is valid, although obviously each case must be treated individually

Originally posted by blueorder
I personally do not think life in prison is enough- certainly not prison as we know it today- books, tv, fitness, self development classes, art etc

In cases where execution is persued evidence would have to be particularly "rigorous", now there will never be 100% in anything we do, but consider that there is nothing 100% about releasing convicted murderers, many of whom have killed again

Oh i'm all for making prisons very nasty places don't get me wrong. However lets be clear, they're not as great as you think, i know people that have been in them. The press makes them sound a little to cushy.

Originally posted by blueorder

70 years in prison- honestly, if someone came up to me now and said "I kill you or spend 7o years in prison"- i'd choose the latter

Have you ever faced your death? I mean actually faced it? I have and i can tell you i'd much rather be dead then spend 70 years in a confined little cell. That's not a life, it's just existence.

Originally posted by blueorder

Fair enough, but just on your last point, that could also result in the wrong person being killed, depending on the circumstances of your "self defense", just a thought?

Erm not really, if someone attacks me with a knife then they probably aren't going to live. That's plain old self defense, sadly our legal system isn't perfect with such things.

Originally posted by blueorder
ALso, on a semi related not, here in the UK we do not have the death penatly for convicted criminals, yet we seem to be employing the death penalty for armed police to kill people on an increasing basis each year- the people they execute have never even been to trial

I'm also in the UK and i know of what you speak. Once again though i must say however. When a policeman is faced with an armed suspect they are todl to shoot and you know what? I'm fine with that. You pick up a gun and point it at an armed officer then it's your own fault.

However the whole charle demendez thing was terrible, although i debate whether it was truly police shooting that day.

But hey we're going off topic

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Oh i'm all for making prisons very nasty places don't get me wrong. However lets be clear, they're not as great as you think, i know people that have been in them. The press makes them sound a little to cushy.

not just the big bad press, PRISONERS actually confirm it is quite a gift

Have you ever faced your death? I mean actually faced it? I have and i can tell you i'd much rather be dead then spend 70 years in a confined little cell. That's not a life, it's just existence.

that is your personal story- for me, and I imagine most people, if I was to ACTUALLY face death or a lifetime in prison, id choose prison

Erm not really, if someone attacks me with a knife then they probably aren't going to live. That's plain old self defense, sadly our legal system isn't perfect with such things.

say, there is a few people involved, some of whom are not involved in the attack, a non "combatant" could well die, and certainly, the chances of that happening are probably much greater than an innocent person being executed after conviction

I'm also in the UK and i know of what you speak. Once again though i must say however. When a policeman is faced with an armed suspect they are todl to shoot and you know what? I'm fine with that. You pick up a gun and point it at an armed officer then it's your own fault.

so execution without trial is fine, but execution with trial isn't?

The police are killing people rather too easily, people isolated in their homes, who have not received a trial or killed a kid- check that recent case in London with the solicitor dude

Originally posted by blueorder

not just the big bad press, PRISONERS actually confirm it is quite a gift

Some prisoners yes, maybe in the better prisons but not all prisons are the same. As i say i have spoken to people that have been in prison and they do not want to go back.

Originally posted by blueorder
that is your personal story- for me, and I imagine most people, if I was to ACTUALLY face death or a lifetime in prison, id choose prison

Until you have faced death you won't know, that's all i meant.

Originally posted by blueorder

say, there is a few people involved, some of whom are not involved in the attack, a non "combatant" could well die, and certainly, the chances of that happening are probably much greater than an innocent person being executed after conviction

Sorry but i said direct, non combatant would never get hit by me. Hard to swing a fist at an innocent person you know. I would like to see you back up your assertion that it's more likely than an innocent person being convicted. Many in the states have died and been proven innocent and i will state that even if one innocent person dies and you support the death penalty then you are by proxy responsible. You have that persons death on your hands, if we used the death penalty i mean.

Originally posted by blueorder

so execution without trial is fine, but execution with trial isn't?

The police are killing people rather too easily, people isolated in their homes, who have not received a trial or killed a kid- check that recent case in London with the solicitor dude

No, we're talking self defense. If a person aims a gun at a police officer and they fire back that is self defense. Or are you saying they should let themselves get shot?

Please link the solicitor case as i'm afraid i must have missed it and i would be very interested in reading through it, thanks.

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by clcreek

 

Though if it were an 11 year old girl, they would probably have ordered him to marry her. But in this case justice was likely adequate. (I say likely, since there's no way to tell the real details of the case.)

So the Saudis would have ordered the man to marry a dead 11 year old girl.

I would advise that you actually read the article...

reply to post by clcreek


Well, I do wish to see criminals punished for their crimes, but I sure hope to hell he *was* guilty!

Because, mistakes do happen. And such a harsh punishment.. well, you don't really get much of a chance to vindicate yourself if wrongly convicted.

Originally posted by clcreek
You would be amazed what it costs to house a prisoner. I know that a death row prisoner costs around $90,000 USD per year.

The average prisoner seems to cost around $22,000 per annum. answers.google.com...

The war in Iraq is costing $12billion per month.

Which is bigger?

Damn that is almost twice the median income in the US.

Considering the above, can you see why your country is massively in debt? Lets look further:

One in every 31 American adults, or 7.3 million Americans, are in prison, on parole or probation. Approximately one in every 18 men in the United States is behind bars or being monitored. A significantly greater percentage of the American population is in some form of correctional control even though crime rates have declined by about 25 percent from 1988-2008.

en.wikipedia.org...
Those are some astonishing statistics, are a large chunk of the population really evil, lifetime criminals or is something wrong with the judicial system and laws? Did you ever consider some things which are regarded as crimes should not be? The savings that could be made are huge.

While I can propose ways to solve that monetary issue of yours, I cannot change the blackness in your heart that would rather see an innocent put to death than a guilty man still breathing.

[edit on 1-6-2009 by Goathief]

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
And no one said you had the facts yet you are willing to support the punishment. There are people being executed in China aswell, you need not know the facts but do you agree??

I am very willing to support that type of punishment for that crime. As for whether or not I need the facts? Facts for what, the discussion is whether or not the punishment fits the crime, I have heard no one here except for you try to discuss the mans innocence. If you have any evidence that the man was innocent then you should have brought it forward, not to us but the Saudi authorities and preferably before his beheading...

I don't see were the sandwich comes in but i sure as h*ll would not promote this person to be beheaded. It's not the way we do things in our country and for some weird reason the problems we have with sex offenders are minor....

WOW, you think the problems we have with sex offenders is minor. So its no big deal to you that a few kids lives gets destroyed every year. I find your consideration of the protection of the most innocent part of our society as a minor issue to be offensive.

read www.childmolestationprevention.org... html. You really believe that 39 million adults and 3 million children is minor.

So money has a higher value than a mans life???

Everything has a price and people that do not realize it are kidding themselves. But you are saying that a criminals life is of more value then the victims. And I would say that the life of someone who has proven that they are unable to live in socity has no value.

Originally posted by Goathief
[

While I can propose ways to solve that monetary issue of yours, I cannot change the blackness in your heart that would rather see an innocent put to death than a guilty man still breathing.

Wow so I have black heart.

Where have I said that I would like to see an innocent man put to death. All I said was the punishment fits the crime.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Some prisoners yes, maybe in the better prisons but not all prisons are the same. As i say i have spoken to people that have been in prison and they do not want to go back.

it is not as nice as living outside (for most, although, bizzarrely, for some, it is better), but it is not a severe punishment (the hardest part would be being removed from loved ones- but at least you get to see them, unlike death, where you don't)

Until you have faced death you won't know, that's all i meant.

yes, but that applies to you as well, until you are faced with the scenario where someone offers you death or life in prison, you will never know

Sorry but i said direct, non combatant would never get hit by me. Hard to swing a fist at an innocent person you know.

not deliberately, I'm talkin accidentally, collateral damage to use a horrible war term

I would like to see you back up your assertion that it's more likely than an innocent person being convicted.

100% of people executed by police have been executed without trial- this trumps any personal issues over the death penalty.

Many in the states have died and been proven innocent

define many, specifically how many have been proven innocent?

and i will state that even if one innocent person dies and you support the death penalty then you are by proxy responsible. You have that persons death on your hands, if we used the death penalty i mean.

you can state that if you wish- does not make it a legitimate point of view- I could just as well blame any murders that convicted murderers who have been released (or, if your get out clause is life meaning life, escaped, or murders INSIDE prison) directly on your hands- you have the death on your hands

No, we're talking self defense. If a person aims a gun at a police officer and they fire back that is self defense. Or are you saying they should let themselves get shot?

I'm saying if self defense is a legitimate excuse for execution, then so is someone who has been convicted in a court of law for murdering a child.

Please link the solicitor case as i'm afraid i must have missed it and i would be very interested in reading through it, thanks.

www.independent.co.uk...

This is repulsive and barbaric, even for horrendous crimes. There is no possibility to sanction such behavior existing in any pocket of this world. Its one thing for a citizen to be stark raving mad over an injustice and to lose it. But when a state of impartial people, do this kind of thing judicially in cold blood, its as bad or worse than the crime itself. Its barbaric!