Feminism: Good or Bad?

reply to post by Amaterasu


I get some of your points. That is the crazy thing about abortion. However, I know many many couples that don't care about color of the child's skin. The major problem with children in state care right now stems from the fact that, at least in Alabama, the Dept. cares more about placing a child with their racial color than placing them with a family who would love them. If the GOVERNMENT would quit worrying about placing an Indian with an Indian family, a white kid with white or black with black then the issue would become a null point. Yea, there are issues with deformed children. That is a hard route. I would have to consider that under medical necessity if it were diagnosed early enough. That does happen but the couple decide to have the baby anyway hoping for the best but not planning for the worst. For example, the parents think the baby will beat the odds for downs (which I personally don't see as a reason for termination since most downs children - that I have met - are the sweetest souls) but lo and behold, he or she has downs and the family breaks up.

Abortion is a personal choice. In a perfect world, there would not be this need for abortion. It's not a perfect world.

I don't think there should be a gov't enforcement of abortion or ban thereof. It is a personal choice. I just know what I would have to do.

As to Leo123. I personally believe ... well, you probably read the posts. Anyway, I have a real problem with men who can't keep it in their pants but it is the woman's fault she is pregnant AND THEN BAIL !! If men would worry more about being sexually responsible and less worried about feeling "natural" during sex then there would be a lot less "unwanted" children. Therefore, less need for abortion.

As I have said from my first post, if both parties had protected sex, most abortions would never need to happen - because it would not be a fetus to be destroyed.



[edit on 31-5-2009 by mhinsey]

reply to post by leo123

But the most shocking statistic is less than 20% of women actually use their degree for a long term career.

I was just talking to my sister yesterday about many girls we went to school with. Out of all our female friends who went to college and got bachelors or masters dont even work now. They are all married with kids and the husband works. I was saying to my sister that's it's sad they did all that work and dont use it and even more the money some of their parents spent! I know that when I am done with school I will definitely use my degree to better help my family! I didnt pay my own way to do nothing with it.

Originally posted by mhinsey
reply to post by Amaterasu

 

I get some of your points. That is the crazy thing about abortion. However, I know many many couples that don't care about color of the child's skin. The major problem with children in state care right now stems from the fact that, at least in Alabama, the Dept. cares more about placing a child with their racial color than placing them with a family who would love them. If the GOVERNMENT would quit worrying about placing an Indian with an Indian family, a white kid with white or black with black then the issue would become a null point.

I'm thinking it wouldn't. Yes, there are a fair number of couples (and the percentage is higher in gay couples) that would love to adopt regardless of color, etc. But I do not think, if we stopped abortion, that we would find enough couples altogether to take up the task of loving the numbers of ensouled beings we would see - and especially so in today's economy. Fewer and fewer people are in a position to provide the food-clothing-shelter even if they have the love to give.

Yea, there are issues with deformed children. That is a hard route. I would have to consider that under medical necessity if it were diagnosed early enough. That does happen but the couple decide to have the baby anyway hoping for the best but not planning for the worst. For example, the parents think the baby will beat the odds for downs (which I personally don't see as a reason for termination since most downs children - that I have met - are the sweetest souls) but lo and behold, he or she has downs and the family breaks up.

I agree that Downs children are blissfully ignorant of what they lack. They are sweet and loving. And I have no issues with parents that can support a Downs child choosing to do so. But by far, Downs children tend to end up in institutions, and they become a burden on society.

I have a cousin with Downs, and her parents refused to send her to an institution (although all the "authorities" suggested that would be best)., and chose to raise her themselves.

Even still... She is not self sufficient at 25. Though she is doing FAR and away better than she was predicted to be (they said she could not learn to talk, but through love and work by her parents, she can talk and has lived 20 years beyond the initial predictions). And because her parents were so young, they did not test her for Downs early on.

But my point here is that both have confided that if they HAD discovered the Downs in the womb, they would have opted for an abortion.

Abortion is a personal choice. In a perfect world, there would not be this need for abortion. It's not a perfect world.

Yes. Abortion is a choice. And the anti-choicers are fighting against a rightful choice.

I don't think there should be a gov't enforcement of abortion or ban thereof. It is a personal choice. I just know what I would have to do.

The thought of giving any government the power to enforce abortion is a scary thought indeed! But so is the thought of giving them the power to block this choice. Both are open to manipulation. Leave the choice to the people - women in whose bodies the vessel unfolds who must make the choice.

As to Leo123. I personally believe ... well, you probably read the posts. Anyway, I have a real problem with men who can't keep it in their pants but it is the woman's fault she is pregnant AND THEN BAIL !! If men would worry more about being sexually responsible and less worried about feeling "natural" during sex then there would be a lot less "unwanted" children. Therefore, less need for abortion.

I agree that if people behaved differently, issues could be solved. But we must work with the behavior we see, not with the behavior we would like to see.

Given the behavior we do see, for society's sake, abortion should be available as a choice.

As I have said from my first post, if both parties had protected sex, most abortions would never need to happen - because it would not be a fetus to be destroyed.

Again, if. But we have what we see to work with, and not what would solve the problems emerging from the behavior we have. We must solve within the behavior we have.

Well, I agree with the initial poster. I have raised 4 children, and made the choice to stay at home when we women were being told that any woman who stayed home probably was just smart enough to read the back of the jello box.

And, right at that time, my father divorced my mother after 7 children and 28 years of marriage, then tried to manipulate her out of her share of the assets. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out if I should get a job/career to protect myself from something similar.

The final decision was to trust my husband and it occurred to me that to act as if he were not trustworthy might be a self-fulfilling prophecy. We shouldn't live our lives as if the worst will happen, and we should think of what is best for our children. I was surprised to discover that the teen years were when we needed to be the most attentive and involved.

Raising children is very hard work. I do think women should have a choice, but not at their children's expense. I told my daughter that she could do anything she wanted, but that choosing a career meant an unknown risk for her children, if she wanted them. They are not always compatible with careers.

That said, I sometimes wonder if the "birth control" pill is more to blame than feminism. Maybe the two go hand-in-hand in tearing down our social fabric?

reply to post by mhinsey



Puttin' that viewpoint in the vault, for sure. star for ya, at the least.

You keep useing that word... I do not think it means, what you think it means.

Feminism does not mean "Equal Rights for Women"

That is a complete misrepresentation of the word.

Feminism derives from the root word FEMALE, or Feminine, modified with "ism"

IT is the "Philosophy" of being a female.

The word itself has nothing to do with rights or whatever....

IT is the philosophy of a Gender, that is all.


The Phrase you are LOOKING for, is the "Female Right's Movement", and the application of "Feminism" as a description to the "Female Rights Movement" is simply misleading.


Just semantics though.

-Edrick

Originally posted by marklance30
Does this not constitute "hate speech" like any other bigotry. Why is it OK to attach feminism with prejudice. Feminism by definition is simply equal rights for women. In my opinion, those who disagree, are intolerant. I expected more from you guys!

If Feminism is by definition just equal rights for women then I think that equal rights should also equate to equal responsibilty which is currently not the case.

Although women are 2 times more likely to commit domestic battery you can go to any domestic abuse website and see the term "he" in all of the references. There is no punishment in large for women exploiting this law on a daily basis and it happens all over America every day believe me.

I won't even get into child support and endentured servitude on this thread but lets just say debtors prison and goverment wellfare reform are one in the same and perpetuated by feminist groups and men haters. Men should support there children yes but should not be forced to pay inflated sums of money they do not have because a faulted system says that is appropriate.

I have no problem with women having equal rights, I encourage them too, I just wish they shared the responsibility that goes along with it. If you want somebody to pay for your kids, make sure you marry somebody you love and know they love you back, are responsible and will commit to the family, otherwise, get on birth control or get a second job.

Originally posted by mblahnikluver
reply to post by leo123

 

But the most shocking statistic is less than 20% of women actually use their degree for a long term career.

I was just talking to my sister yesterday about many girls we went to school with. Out of all our female friends who went to college and got bachelors or masters dont even work now. They are all married with kids and the husband works. I was saying to my sister that's it's sad they did all that work and dont use it and even more the money some of their parents spent! I know that when I am done with school I will definitely use my degree to better help my family! I didnt pay my own way to do nothing with it.

mblahnikluver:

You should also be aware that beyond the parents expense here in Canada over 85% of a University education is subsidized beyond fees by the general taxpayer.

My God - such a waste - for what?

Originally posted by Housemouse
Well, I agree with the initial poster. I have raised 4 children, and made the choice to stay at home when we women were being told that any woman who stayed home probably was just smart enough to read the back of the jello box.

And, right at that time, my father divorced my mother after 7 children and 28 years of marriage, then tried to manipulate her out of her share of the assets. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out if I should get a job/career to protect myself from something similar.

The final decision was to trust my husband and it occurred to me that to act as if he were not trustworthy might be a self-fulfilling prophecy. We shouldn't live our lives as if the worst will happen, and we should think of what is best for our children. I was surprised to discover that the teen years were when we needed to be the most attentive and involved.

Raising children is very hard work. I do think women should have a choice, but not at their children's expense. I told my daughter that she could do anything she wanted, but that choosing a career meant an unknown risk for her children, if she wanted them. They are not always compatible with careers.

That said, I sometimes wonder if the "birth control" pill is more to blame than feminism. Maybe the two go hand-in-hand in tearing down our social fabric?

Hello Housemouse:

How refreshing that a sane and learned mature voice once again enters. *SIGH*

Congratulations on your confidence for the long run in the face of adversity and your obvious success. Unfortunately, my ex-wife succumed to the voices that suggested that she as a stay home mom couldn't, "read the back of the jello box" even though she became a registered securities trader at the ripe age of 24 and we had everything 12 years later. EVERYTHING.

Sadly, today, I still very much miss the true love of my life, but I have now moved on after 12 further years - well maybe not yet. Unfortunately she has become a lost bitter soul who still today blames me for all her problems and I feel sorry for her.

[edit on 31-5-2009 by leo123]

[edit on 31-5-2009 by leo123]

it was created to double the tax base...

video.google.com...

.... those rich bastards....

Originally posted by mhinsey

Originally posted by Amagnon
reply to post by leo123

 

S&F - Feminism like racism is purely another way to confound free speech, and divide society against itself.

I do not live in a western country anymore, I am happy where I am - women are women, and men are men.

I am sure women for equality are happy for you, too.

Not sure what your meaning is here - but I'll assume it means good things

I just don't like when people feel they need to try and be this or that - or you can't just speak your mind.

Men and women are different creatures - we think differently and prioritize things differently. We are different, but equal.

Treating people equally doesn't mean treating them the same.

Men are now going through what women went through in years past. We men have become second class citizens behind the womens movement machine.

The simple fact of the matter is that women know how to organize, protest and complain and men simply can not match that effort because they are too busy working too pay over inflated child support or doing time in county jail because they pissed off there girlfriend and she threw a book at him and called the cops and claimed he hit her.

This is fast becoming a female ran country because the men are becoming powerless to do anything under our own goverments laws. Why do you think that we have 50 year old congressmen having sex in public restrooms with other men? Ill tell you why, because they know the laws they passed six months before that wouldn't allow them to live a normal life it there wife found out they were cheating with another women.

Think about it.

Look, Men and Women are Different... but NOT equal.

I keep seeing this "Different but Equal" debate over, and over again.

IT is a HORRIBLY meaningless statement.

IF two things are different, then they are not equal.

To claim that all characteristics that differ between men and women can cancel each other out in pro's and con's in an algebraic manner is quite naive.

Women are good at some things that men are not as good at.

Men are good at some things that women are not good at.

This does not MEAN that they are equal.

There can be no "Better" or "Worse" comparison here people, this is a fruitless, and uncivilized argument, or assumption.

Whenever A Woman claims that they are equal to men... I have only ONE REBUTTAL.

"AT WHAT?"


Seriously..... this is dumb.


-Edrick

Well, clearly we have ht the sh*'er within our society when it comes to morals and standards and the end product is now quite clear.

We have hit bottom.

So, the question then becomes what should we do to correct the problem?

Originally posted by Edrick
Look, Men and Women are Different... but NOT equal.

I keep seeing this "Different but Equal" debate over, and over again.

IT is a HORRIBLY meaningless statement.

IF two things are different, then they are not equal.

To claim that all characteristics that differ between men and women can cancel each other out in pro's and con's in an algebraic manner is quite naive.

Women are good at some things that men are not as good at.

Men are good at some things that women are not good at.

This does not MEAN that they are equal.

There can be no "Better" or "Worse" comparison here people, this is a fruitless, and uncivilized argument, or assumption.

Whenever A Woman claims that they are equal to men... I have only ONE REBUTTAL.

"AT WHAT?"


Seriously..... this is dumb.


-Edrick

Yes you raise some interesting points.

How come in almost every sport, men have to work harder, longer and faster to achieve success compared to women in the same sport? (Somehow I don't think males having a physically larger heart really explains it all.) No push for women's equality here, wonder why?.

Why does the average taxpayer disproportionately fund women's procedures compared to procedures exclusively for men? Any push for equality here? No.

Why are men demonised as "pigs" and "hormone-driven slime" when they express the effects of testosterone build up in their bodies? While women are forgiven and shown sympathy when their oestrogen levels are high? No push for equality there.

Feminism was once focussed on the push for equal rights for women in society. It has now long passed that point and resulted in breaking up many relationships and destroying millions of families around the world. It has made the average male fear marriage and commitment because if and when the relationship ends, the woman will receive all the support, sympathy and rights relating to all assets and offspring.

[edit on 2/6/2009 by Dark Ghost]

reply to post by Dark Ghost


Yeah, and not to even mention the Selective Service (Mandatory) for *MEN* only.

Any push for equality there?

Men have been forced to die for their nations since the beginning OF nations.

And WOMEN are the oppressed ones here...?

Hmmmmmmm......

-Edrick

here's a very interesting video on this subject from a woman. www.youtube.com... her opinion is one you wouldn't expect.

Originally posted by heyo
reply to post by mhinsey

 

Your choice should be based upon what's best for the family, not just you. You think guys like working all the time? The point is that the feminist movement, imho (and i can't stress this enough), seems to think that women should just get what they want, whenever they want.
You're better at raising the family unit, admit it. Men play their roles but kids always want their momma.

This is really a generalization. MANY women take more naturally to parenting - but not all. And many (although generally fewer than women) men are more nurturing. Couples need to figure out between them what the best scenario regarding childcare is - I know some amazing dads who stay home, and some crappy, burnt out moms. The idea that because one person is born with a vagina they are automatically the best choice is really bizarre to me. All people are different, with varied strengths and weaknesses.

I'm sorry guys don't like working all the time. Neither do women and guess what, child rearing is HARD work. I say this as a stay at home mom. I don't think I ever had a harder job, and I get no pay. I adore my kids, but it's not all picnics and ice cream dude. Life requires work. That's just the way it is, and always will be. You can't blame the need to work for a living on feminism.

Originally posted by leo123

Originally posted by mhinsey

Originally posted by leo123

Originally posted by mhinsey
It is about the CHOICE.

Exactly, and what is being pointed out to you is under feminism only women have CHOICE.

That's not equality.

It's funny you only quote that one little part. Don't want to get into the other part where I hold both parties accountable? Typical male chauvinism. Only defend the one little part. You do not want to discuss you just want to bash.

Ok bambam... go back to bashing the table. It's ok. Your mommy will pick up your spillt milk and cookies. Even if you are 30...living in the basement apartment... still single.... wondering why women won't date you.... calling up your friend Bubba for another cool Friday night of dungeons and dragons... or going to the bar bouncing your head like those two brothers from that skit on Saturday Night Live.

[Ok .. that made ME snicker!]

mhinsey:

Personal attacks don't fly with me, I am way too old for that and am having too much fun in my semi-retired years with the ladies in my life to pack any attitude.

What I am respectfully trying to point out is the irony in many of your comments.

For example look at your signature line. It's all about you and to hell with anyone else. Hmmm?

You want "choice", but are you willing to take full responsibility for the implications of your "choice"? Are you willing to equally value and respect the implications your "choice" has on other people?

Some thoughts.


[edit on 31-5-2009 by leo123]

You can't blame this choice on feminism either. Blame God/ nature/ what have you - but the fact is, you have to be a woman to carry a pregnancy. Thus, you have a certain amount of say in what goes on in regards to it.

Can you really say it would be fair for a woman to say "I really can't have a child right now" but the man could override that and force the woman to carry the pregnancy to fruition?! Or the opposite - the woman wants the child and has to be tied down and forced to have an abortion against her will? Think about it long and hard now.

MAN - goes to war.

WOMAN - has to be everything. Make all decisions. Take care of kids. Mow the lawn.

MAN - comes home from war.

WOMAN - no longer needs man.

If men are gonna blame independent women - - they better look in the mirror first.